Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[transmanche]

So if its only the fourth coach in an 8 carriage formation and the fifth coach in a 12 carriage formation you wonder why they led with that layout on the demonstrator as its quite nonindicative.

Probably to show the difference to current stock, in terms of accessibility and luggage space, etc.

 

[The Box Photter]

I've also posted in the class 700/class 319 thread.

Apart from the need to design in some features that suit Underground style loadings, I was pleasantly surprised by the general look and feel of the mock up, especially how supportive the standard class seats seem to be. Not particularly bothered about armrests, but the overriding impression is of a spacious vehicle with plenty of room.

I did find the lighting a little clinical, especially given the colours chosen but thoroughly applaud the decision not to go with carpets. It will make it much easier to keep the trains clean.

Talking to one of the technical chaps, it also seems like the units will have plenty of power on tap, with motor bogies distributed along the whole train.

Bring 'em on!

 

[DJL]

Out of interest, does anyone know if the livery is definitely what the new franchise will be using?

My sister commented that it looked very much like some of the South Eastern trains (375 376), particularly from the front.
I would have thought the operator would want to be distinctive?

Personally I much much prefer this to the current FCC livery. But I could say that about most of the liveries that I've seen!

 

[asylumxl]

Out of interest, does anyone know if the livery is definitely what the new franchise will be using?

My sister commented that it looked very much like some of the South Eastern trains (375 376), particularly from the front.
I would have thought the operator would want to be distinctive?

Personally I much much prefer this to the current FCC livery. But I could say that about most of the liveries that I've seen!

A Siemens employee told me today that they asked the DfT whether they wanted a blank canvas or a current livery. Apparently the DfT chose a blank canvas. So no, it won't be the new livery.

 

[DJL]

A Siemens employee told me today that they asked the DfT whether they wanted a blank canvas or a current livery. Apparently the DfT chose a blank canvas. So no, it won't be the new livery.

Thanks

 

[jon0844]

I think it's the default livery and colour scheme. The new platform island at Finsbury Park is also painted the same, standing out against the FCC colours on the poles on the other platforms.

And talking of DLR, and as we have the other thread about lack of announcements, I came back on one (to Bank) that said it was out of service and the staff member couldn't speak properly into the mic and was impossible to understand. Some of the DLR stations are quite invisible at dusk.

 

[fgwrich]

And talking of DLR, and as we have the other thread about lack of announcements, I came back on one (to Bank) that said it was out of service and the staff member couldn't speak properly into the mic and was impossible to understand. Some of the DLR stations are quite invisible at dusk.

Does that mean you've found out where Not In Service actually is then?

The new livery and colours are of the new TSGN franchise which is also found in the 365 - The interior certainly looks better in the Desiro City than the 365 though.

 

[Minstral25]

Having visited very late this evening I am generally positive about the unit except for the Standard Class seats.

I liked the wide entrances, decent holding points and first class was very good, but the standard seats are too small, lack armrests or anywhere to put your coffee/tablet/work.

I appreciate that for a very short part of their journeys they need the space but the majority of their journeys will be long distance commuters who will want to work at their seats, or watch a film or drink their coffee. The lack of tip-up tables and narrow seats make this virtually impossible.

In my view the seats should be wider at least 20" (510mm) (they are just over 17" wide in the demo - this would mean a slight loss of width in the between seats space but because of the wide doors the length of these spaces is much smaller anyway.

I asked the guy from FCC demonstrating to sit next to me and after I squeezed in next to him he agreed the space was insufficient and I asked him how he would drink a cup of coffee and it would have been impossible. We then sat opposite in the facing seats and he had to keep his legs wide to allow my knees to fit (not a pretty sight)

He said the reason the seats are like they are because of the DfT requirements for the 24 trains per hour in the core. Armrests and tray tables would slow people getting off. To be honest I think this argument is weak.

I think most Brighton Line, Peterborough, Cambridge and even Bedford commuters would demand bigger seats, tray tables if they had a choice or even a chance to comment. Probably won't get one but expect a lot of complaints when they are introduced.

 

[jon0844]

I got an email address to pass on my comments and seat back tables is something I'm definitely going to mention.

But I can perhaps agree that people messing around with armrests and fold down tables may well cause delays. But passengers will cause delays anyway, hence the core almost certainly struggling at peak times.

 

[jon0844]

Does that mean you've found out where Not In Service actually is then?

I am not sure but it sounds like a popular place. I see loads of buses going there at night. Some also call at a place called 'Sorry' first.

 

[Minstral25]

I was late as I couldn't leave work until 6:30 and they had packed up most stuff before I left so no ability to comment. Could you post that email address as I'd like to comment too.

I don't think in the peaks with regular passengers a single armrest or table will cause any delays - never do on 377's on the Victoria run as regular passengers life them up as the train approaches station because they have somewhere to go - normally quickly to save time.

Really need to sort that out - the FCC manager couldn't justify the seats beyond they were as required by the DfT - well the DfT has got it wrong and they need to sort it out before the trains are delivered.

 

[Aictos]

Good to see that JonMorris and Class 377/5 have reached the same conclusions as I did after experiencing the mock up. So that's three of us who have seen it who think it's pretty good (actually four, one forum member is maintaining a dignified silence).

It would be genuinely interesting to hear of anyone who has visited that has a contrary view.

I think it's pretty good too

I suspect it may end up at the London transport museums either at the main museum in Covent garden or at Acton like the cross-river tram mock up

As far as I'm aware it's heading to a FCC location.

 

[transmanche]

Some also call at a place called 'Sorry' first.

Next to Hampshire, I believe.

 

[TheJRB]

I know everybody's got roughly the same shots, but my photos of the event are now available here: https://plus.google.com/photos/117869996631255488947/albums/5974474603489152273.

 

[TEW]

I went along and I wasn't too impressed with the Standard class seats either. Like others I agree they need armrests and seat back tables, and they're still too firm for my liking for long journeys. First Class was OK, but probably not as nice as the 319s First Class currently, but it's much better than standard. Overall I just felt that it's been designed too much with Thameslink core in mind with little thought for the length of journeys some people will be taking on them. I'd say overall the interior ambience felt like S Stock with toilets. In the production trains, where lots of the carriages will just have seats and none of the extra facilities which were all crammed in to two carriages in the demonstrator I think it's going to feel even more like that.

 

[Class377/5]

Well that explains it, its done so wheelchairs can get from the wheel chair space by the door to the disabled toilet in the neighbouring coach.

So if its only the fourth coach in an 8 carriage formation and the fifth coach in a 12 carriage formation you wonder why they led with that layout on the demonstrator as its quite nonindicative.

Because as you point out is the demonstrator. It had to show first class, standard, both types of toilets, all of which are spread over multiple carriages.

There's no way to show all that without either a composite carriage or four or five carriages mock up. The latter would make it difficult to keep lined up.

For the record folks the mock up is based near a future station and is being kept for staff training.

 

[DJL]

I have to say I don't get all the comments about the seats being poor.

Are they not an improvement on what is currently on the 377s?
Yes they may not be as good as those on a 319 but the 319s were built in the late 80s.
You'll never get something like that again. Ever.

This is a question: How many people actually use these services from the extremities into London? How many go through the core and travel a significant distance either side.
My suspicion is that the vast majority of passengers travel from the suburbs to no further than a few stops beyond the core. Hence it makes sense to cater for the majority - i.e. the busy part of the route.

If my suspicion is wrong however then maybe more comfort should be provided for longer journeys. I'm not sure how likely that is though.

 

[Loki]

The seating is poor?

RER seats:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Rame_MI09_du_RER_A_-_IMG_1572.jpg

 

[TheJRB]

Are they not an improvement on what is currently on the 377s?

Of the centre two coaches' 2+3 seating? Yes, by a long way. But of the end coaches' 2+2 with armrests and tables? No, not even the first class seating was better than this on the mockup. In my opinion, 375/377 2+2 seating has to be some of the most comfortable seating on the network whilst the 3+2 of the same stock has to be among the worst.

 

[jon0844]

The seating seemed fine to me. There was also quite a lot of legroom, so I'd be perfectly happy on them (my trips are usually around 30 minutes or less though, so I can't speak for everyone).

I guess the lack of carpet makes the train feel a bit 'colder' than, say, a 365 (which is also losing the carpets in the main carriage areas) but it's going to be far easier to keep clean, which has to be a good thing.

 

[jopsuk]

RER is, distance wise, comparable to Crossrail- Creil is about 45km from the centre of the network (I used Chatalet as reference point), Maidenhead is about 42km from Faringdon (where Crossrail & Thameslink will meet).
Brighton: 77km
Bedford: 72
Peterborough: 117
Cambridge: 78
Ashford(?): 80

If you want to compare versus French commuter stock, the distances are more like Transilien

 

[joeykins82]

I went along to this last night and I'm quite impressed. Although the seats are firm they're not uncomfortable. I wouldn't want to spend more than an hour and a half on them but there'll only be a tiny minority of people who actually would do anyway.

I'd agree that foldable armrests and seat back tables should be present at least on the 12-car sets. If the interiors are being standardised then they should be added to the whole fleet.

 

[DJL]

RER is, distance wise, comparable to Crossrail- Creil is about 45km from the centre of the network (I used Chatalet as reference point), Maidenhead is about 42km from Faringdon (where Crossrail & Thameslink will meet).
Brighton: 77km
Bedford: 72
Peterborough: 117
Cambridge: 78
Ashford(?): 80

If you want to compare versus French commuter stock, the distances are more like Transilien

Looking at an interior picture of the Transilien from that link the seats don't exactly look fantastic.
Though it's hard to judge without actually riding one of course...

 

[jopsuk]

Indeed here's another (single deck) Transilien refurb with the same seating.
this more modern stock looks rather comfier

this doesn't

 

[jon0844]

Not sure how comfortable the seats are, but the last one looks really funky! Especially with spotlights rather than the usual fluorescent lighting.

 

[wyvfe1]

Mod Note: Merged from another thread

Did anyone go to ExCeL

A brand new fleet of 115 state-of-the-art trains is being built for the Thameslink and Great Northern routes

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.u...ew-trains/discover-your-new-thameslink-train/

 

[Minstral25]

I have to say I don't get all the comments about the seats being poor.

Are they not an improvement on what is currently on the 377s?
Yes they may not be as good as those on a 319 but the 319s were built in the late 80s.
You'll never get something like that again. Ever.

This is a question: How many people actually use these services from the extremities into London? How many go through the core and travel a significant distance either side.
My suspicion is that the vast majority of passengers travel from the suburbs to no further than a few stops beyond the core. Hence it makes sense to cater for the majority - i.e. the busy part of the route.

If my suspicion is wrong however then maybe more comfort should be provided for longer journeys. I'm not sure how likely that is though.

I think the vast bulk of people travel from the extremities into London Bridge, Blackfriars, Farringdon and St Pancras. So they will then mingle with the short journeys in the core.

The capacity crunch in the core will come from North of London passengers mingling with South of London customers in the core.

So my view is that the train's seats should be set up for the needs of the long distance passengers. From south of London (i.e. outside M25) it appears most of our London Bridge trains will be replaced by Thameslink trains so it is very important to us.

They are clearly not better than the 377's as even on the 3+2 not so nice section of the 377's seat back tables are available.

 

[swt_passenger]

Did anyone go to ExCeL

It's what the last few pages of this thread are about

A brand new fleet of 115 state-of-the-art trains is being built for the Thameslink and Great Northern routes

You don't say. As announced as long ago as 2008 and discussed in detail ever since... :roll:

 

[ainsworth74]

Sorry I should have pointed out that the above post you quoted has been merged into this thread from a new thread.

 

[swt_passenger]

Sorry I should have pointed out that the above post you quoted has been merged into this thread from a new thread.

Ok thanks - that'll explain it.