Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[fgwrich]

The passenger information screens remind me of the flat screens that popped up at Railtrack/Network Rail stations around 2000. They seemed so futuristic... until they were distorted by the sun's glare and suffered screen issues. The dot matrix replacements were far better. I know you only have to look at how far TV and computer monitor resolution has come to see the improvements from 14 years ago but I hope these new displays are thoroughly tested.

The unveiling has certainly sparked some media interest. I was impressed by the amount of photos on the SE1 webiste's Flickr account. I'm not sure if these are the same as the ones mentioned earlier - it could be a standard media release. http://www.flickr.com/photos/se1website/sets/72157640249883405/

Going to have a look tomorrow, but initial impressions are that they'll be noisy and draughty and probably very rattly quite soon after they've been in service a while. Once again the trains have been designed to act as pseudo-tube trains for passengers only wanting to travel through the Core.

Looks like a backward step for longer distance commuters after the relative comfort of the 377s. Where will all the airport passengers' luggage go? I'll tell you where, in the "corridor" areas at the end of the carriages, thus making movement up and down the train difficult.

How long will it be (assuming MML electrification goes ahead) before the Thameslink franchise is extended northwards to Wellingborough and Kettering/Corby. Anyone fancy a trip from Corby to Brighton on a glorified London Overground train?

Looking through those pictures there's one thing going through my mind. Uh Oh, here's a DfT spec train that as you say designed to work very well with the large loadings through the core, but leave the outer reaches of the line with what is unfortunately a better built 378. I don't question Siemens quality - at the end of the day it'll be a quality well built product, but what I do question is is it such a good idea to be as spacious as possible without effectively alienating the longer distance traveller? I know the Thameslink contract must be a challenge to cater for 3 types of traveller (commuter, airport use and longer distance) but it does appear to me that creating as much space as possible for passing through the core has won out on this, rather than thinking these will go onward from Brighton to Bedford / Peterborough and further afield.

And I see some things don't appear to have been learnt from previous rolling stock - http://www.flickr.com/photos/se1website/12189715183/in/set-72157640249883405/ The sink for example example reminds me a little of that found in the Notworker designs, which ultimately leaves you with more water running onto the counter top and dribbling onto the floor than water on your hands (Although it still appears to be the Desiro design - rather than the converted cupboard Bombardier type effort).

Overall, a good looking well designed train potentially to be let down by a poor choice in specification. Hopefully the 700 will be internally as flexible as Siemens say it will be - I've a feeling that it'll somewhat end up being changed within a few years of service.

 

[Fincra5]

Wonder if there is a guards panel anywhere.. I would guess there might be some control in the cabs maybe.. I know its a DOO train but I think I see a Signal Bell.

 

[bramling]

It's a massive improvement on existing trains that are used, the number of times the doors between the carriages on a 365 jam is unbelievable and as to the 380s, they are decent trains which do the job well they are certainly a improvement on the trains they replaced with better interiors such as air conditioning, CIS and power sockets.

Personally I think rather then give the Class 700 a chance you're jumping the gun and stating you don't like it without giving it a chance which is unfair.

How can you say this is an improvement on the 365 or 377?

I'm not speaking for the Thameslink side as I don't have recent experience here, but generally on the GN side the semi-fast trains are not crush loaded. Even at the high peak it's rare for trains to arrive or leave KX with large numbers standing for more than a few minutes. Those capacity issues which do exist could generally be resolved by extending from 4 to 8 or 8 to 12 carriages, the current constrait here appears to be platform lengths at certain stations and rolling stock availability.

So, for me, the Thameslink programme will swap a comfortable, civilised and reliable service, for a train which is seems more like an S stock Underground train, have to mess about using places like St Pancras International LL or Farrington as opposed to the general ease of turning up at KX and getting on the train early, and last but not least potentially importing delays off at least two other service areas. Since Hatfield, reliability on the GN side has been superb, and it is comparatively rare for trains to run more than a few minutes late. Will the Thameslink Programme be able to maintain this reliability?


Regarding the 380s, they are the only type of train I've ever travelled on which has given me a headache. Something about the bright harsh lighting combined with garish internal colours. The 700 actually looks worse in this respect. (I do accept that these are specification issues which could easily be resolved, rather than fundamental issues with the trains). Give me a 377 anyday.

 

[starrymarkb]

The passenger information screens remind me of the flat screens that popped up at Railtrack/Network Rail stations around 2000. They seemed so futuristic... until they were distorted by the sun's glare and suffered screen issues. The dot matrix replacements were far better. I know you only have to look at how far TV and computer monitor resolution has come to see the improvements from 14 years ago but I hope these new displays are thoroughly tested.

Most Continental Stock has been using screens like this for some time. It's standard fit on most Swiss stock. As well as the destination they usually list the next three stops with Live ETA, connections (with time and platform) when approaching a major station and other information like speed/weather etc

 

[Electrostar]

That's good to know. I had bad memories of the not-so-old corrupted screens at Paddington and Waterloo. As I said technology has advanced somewhat in that short space of time.

 

[starrymarkb]

That's good to know. I had bad memories of the not-so-old corrupted screens at Paddington and Waterloo. As I said technology has advanced somewhat in that short space of time.

Here's one from a Tram in Bern - the train ones are very similar.

 

[swt_passenger]

In any 'two car' mockup, surely they have concentrated on demonstrating that they've provided the PRM requirements? So they've basically showed the areas of reduced (2+1) seating, wheelchair spaces, luggage racks, universal toilet etc. AIUI these will always be in the centre of the train, so that they line up with designated areas on the platforms, and they appear to have spread the area across a through gangway.

So on the 12 car train, to meet the specified 650 odd seats, there are going to have to be about 10 cars nearly completely full of 2+2 seating, at around about 55-60 seats each whether standard or first, hence in a fairly bog-standard layout (apart from providing better stand back room at the doors).

So what I'm suggesting is that the rest of the train will be fairly 'normal'...

 

[HSTEd]

Meanwhile the unsuitability of the stock? Quite agree. If only NSE hadn't made Thameslink Bedford-Brighton! If it had been scoped instead, from the off, as a Crossrail type route then there would be less compromise (take note anyone suggesting Crossrail extensions)

But it probably wouldn't have been so explosively succesful.

And there probably would have been no money for a Crossrail esque service, remember it was done with virtually no new infrastructure and just shunted terminating services across London.

People think it was some sort of grand project when really it was just someone's idea that some manager ran with.

 

[A-driver]

Wonder if there is a guards panel anywhere.. I would guess there might be some control in the cabs maybe.. I know its a DOO train but I think I see a Signal Bell.

All trains, DOO or not, have to have signal bells. Even 317s which were built specifically as DOO have them. Guards are only one use for the bell. We use them frequently when shunting and they are needed incase of propelling movements or driving other than from the leading cab etc.

 

[Fincra5]

Aye I know, from working with 377s we only have a bell in the cab for dispatch.

Just curious as to if there is a place in the cab for a guards key etc, in case we ever have to work them.

A friend when to the excel... apparently there are still guard panels in the vestibules

 

[jon0844]

Just been to see it and it looks great in the flesh, inside and out.

Feels solid, and first class actually does look and feel different. No seat back tables, but lots of space for luggage and standing room. Clearly marked where the accessible section is on the outside, so hopefully those wanting a seat would be put off going here and it will naturally sort itself out.

Most importantly, if the 2+2 seating in standard is similar to first class, it will be perfectly okay for long distances in my opinion.

It's also LED lighting throughout and th3 screens are very clear (with wide viewing angles) so shouldn't be a problem. Probably easily replaced anyway.

Glad I went now!

 

[ainsworth74]

By my reading of the images (and from listening to roving report JonMorris) it sounds like the only thing that could do with tweaking is the provision of seatback tables and possibly some either full size or half tables elsewhere in the 2+2 standard class section. I also like the look of the new PIS screens and it's not before time that we got some that were capable of telling you more than just a list of stations and where to buy your tickets.

Certainly I think they look like a massive improvement on the 319s!!

 

[Class377/5]

Aye I know, from working with 377s we only have a bell in the cab for dispatch.

Just curious as to if there is a place in the cab for a guards key etc, in case we ever have to work them.

A friend when to the excel... apparently there are still guard panels in the vestibules

There's a guard panel (tho not completed). Will upload photo when I get the chance.

After spending most of the day with the mock up and a good hour sat on them and now riding a 319/4 home from London, I prefer the 700 seating.

 

[traji00]

This was a nice touch too:


London Bridge Station model by traji00, on Flickr


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

 

[Bald Rick]

Good to see that JonMorris and Class 377/5 have reached the same conclusions as I did after experiencing the mock up. So that's three of us who have seen it who think it's pretty good (actually four, one forum member is maintaining a dignified silence).

It would be genuinely interesting to hear of anyone who has visited that has a contrary view.

 

[TheJRB]

I also went. First time I've ever been to the ExCel and I was blown away by the enormity of it. Everybody was very cheerful and there was a great atmosphere there.

The seats are the same as the 377/6 are they not? In that case my opinion on them is the same; good for posture but you wouldn't want to spend hours on them (but few would anyway). The first class seating could do with a bit more padding considering the service it's supposed to be providing and indeed I agree that a few tables in standard wouldn't hurt.

Apart from that, I really like how bright, spacious and wide it feels. Definitely an improvement of the current 319 interior. The cab seems very nice too. Interesting, and surely a positive, to see the driver's seat is in the centre of the cab as with the 395s. I also heard that the power and brake control is fully continuous and not notched.

All in all a great preview and I'm glad I got the chance to go. I picked up the two available souvenirs which were the phone screen wipe and hand warmer.

Just a minor final note but does anybody know what will happen to this mockup?

 

[anthony263]

I suspect it may end up at the London transport museums either at the main museum in Covent garden or at Acton like the cross-river tram mock up

 

[Nym]

The idea of a coninuous curve TBC seems like a really good one, but having spoken to many a driver who've used both type, and having used both myself. (EP/Westinghouse (Shutdown / Emergency / App / Lap / Rel / RehEP3, 2, 1 + Hold, O&R, Shunt, Series, Parallell) and Continuous (Knorr Benzise)). I can say that oth have their merits but I did prefer having the notches available on the brake, especially sinc the KB brake encoders have a slight delay on them, always paniced a bit and made a full application. Although when you drive for longer I'm sure that improves.

But yeah, I think everything is continuous nowerdays.

 

[Class377/5]

Wonder if there is a guards panel anywhere.. I would guess there might be some control in the cabs maybe.. I know its a DOO train but I think I see a Signal Bell.

As promised. Just not its not the full mock up of the guards panel.


Class 700 Guards Panel by Sparkyscrum, on Flickr

Good to see that JonMorris and Class 377/5 have reached the same conclusions as I did after experiencing the mock up. So that's three of us who have seen it who think it's pretty good (actually four, one forum member is maintaining a dignified silence).

It would be genuinely interesting to hear of anyone who has visited that has a contrary view.

I took a colleague for a neutral persons opinion. He quite liked the mock up.

I also went. First time I've ever been to the ExCel and I was blown away by the enormity of it. Everybody was very cheerful and there was a great atmosphere there.

The seats are the same as the 377/6 are they not? In that case my opinion on them is the same; good for posture but you wouldn't want to spend hours on them (but few would anyway). The first class seating could do with a bit more padding considering the service it's supposed to be providing and indeed I agree that a few tables in standard wouldn't hurt.

Apart from that, I really like how bright, spacious and wide it feels. Definitely an improvement of the current 319 interior. The cab seems very nice too. Interesting, and surely a positive, to see the driver's seat is in the centre of the cab as with the 395s. I also heard that the power and brake control is fully continuous and not notched.

All in all a great preview and I'm glad I got the chance to go. I picked up the two available souvenirs which were the phone screen wipe and hand warmer.

Just a minor final note but does anybody know what will happen to this mockup?

They aren't the same seats as the 377/6 as you don't feel the plastic. First class ones are an actual upgrade.

For my mock up photos see here

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mackenzieblu/sets/72157640284156676/

 

[southern442]

Will the seats be any better than the 377s which are ok for short 15min journeys but totally unsuitable for journeys of up to 2hrs from the South Coast?

Brian

They are the same seats as the 377/6 but without armrests, which means they are worse.

 

[Class377/5]

They are the same seats as the 377/6 but without armrests, which means they are worse.

Different padding means different experience. After spending over an hour sitting on the 700 mock up today and several hours on a 377/6 there are different experience.

 

[southern442]

Different padding means different experience. After spending over an hour sitting on the 700 mock up today and several hours on a 377/6 there are different experience.

Come to think of it they do look a lot more padded, whereas on some parts of the 377/6 seat it is just their AstroTurf and nothing else. First class looks nice but it is a far cry from the class 319. Are they going to have power sockets? I am surprised that they are using a metro layout on what is an intercity-length journey in some cases.

Who makes the seats?

 

[WatcherZero]

They are the same seats as the 377/6 but without armrests, which means they are worse.

Good, cant stand armrests they always painfully jab in my sides.

 

[jon0844]

Internal layouts

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I suspect it may end up at the London transport museums either at the main museum in Covent garden or at Acton like the cross-river tram mock up

It will go back to safe storage soon - and then may be offered to a good home - either for display , or it can go to an institutional location for training purposes - no clues , but you can maybe guess a few places.
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Good to see that JonMorris and Class 377/5 have reached the same conclusions as I did after experiencing the mock up. So that's three of us who have seen it who think it's pretty good (actually four, one forum member is maintaining a dignified silence).

It would be genuinely interesting to hear of anyone who has visited that has a contrary view.

It was a staff event (NR as well as TOC's) this am - and in awful weather lots turned up in their own time - in fact queuing to get in at 8am.

I suspect it was much busier this afternoon. A great looking train with many superb attributes. Will miss the 319's though - good workhorses 80 out of 84 in service each day , some doing 800 miles a day. So an FCC employee tells me.

 

[jon0844]

There were a couple of people that were trying to avoid being seen in photos (especially the mirrored bit at the end), so were presumably not supposed to be there!!

EDIT: Here are my photos...

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?res...4&authkey=!AAKPkDBXawq3o9E&ithint=folder,.jpg

I tried to take photos from angles that most people weren't, like lower down, all the buttons, armrests, stickers etc.

 

[asylumxl]

I found the standard seating to be more comfortable than the first seating!

 

[transmanche]

Thanks to all who have posted their photos, it's certainly whetted my appetite... I can't wait to have a ride on a 700!

 

[WatcherZero]

Internal layouts

Well that explains it, its done so wheelchairs can get from the wheel chair space by the door to the disabled toilet in the neighbouring coach.

So if its only the fourth coach in an 8 carriage formation and the fifth coach in a 12 carriage formation you wonder why they led with that layout on the demonstrator as its quite nonindicative.

 

[DJL]

I went today too.

I got a pleasant surprise when I sat down in a std class seat. Definitely better than the 377s that operate on my route (through St Mary Cray), though still not a patch on a 465s seats.

My sister came along as well and the first thing she said when getting on was how spacious it is. I think her comment was something like "I can move down the train without my bag bashing into anyone"


As for the DLR - well I think I might start a new thread with my opinions about that one.