Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Deepgreen]

Going by the map, the blank window in the 4th car FTR is a toilet, the blank in the 6th car FTR is the disabled toilet.

Thanks for that - yes, that all ties in.

The layout diagram has reminded me of the disparity in the proportion of first class accommodation between the 700/0s and the 700/1s - the same number of seats in each, but four more cars in the 700/1s. Assuming that, if anything, the 700/1s will be used more on the longer-distance routes (as opposed to, say, the Wimbledon loop), it seems odd not to have put in an intermediate small section of first class to balance the proportion provided (or, if demand generally is thought be very low, to have reduced that in the 700/0s).

 

[Class377/5]

Is this for mainline service or testing?
Thanks

Testing. Won't be in service this month.

 

[jon0844]

Maybe even a couchette?!

Nah, don't need that. The average time on a 700 is, as we know, only about 20 minutes.

 

[asylumxl]

Saw one pass through Elephant and Castle today around 1430 and another in the bay at Blackfriars. First time I'd seen/heard one in motion, not bad.

 

[DerekC]

Thanks for that - yes, that all ties in.

The layout diagram has reminded me of the disparity in the proportion of first class accommodation between the 700/0s and the 700/1s - the same number of seats in each, but four more cars in the 700/1s. Assuming that, if anything, the 700/1s will be used more on the longer-distance routes (as opposed to, say, the Wimbledon loop), it seems odd not to have put in an intermediate small section of first class to balance the proportion provided (or, if demand generally is thought be very low, to have reduced that in the 700/0s).

They didn't want to put 1st class in one end only on the 700/0s because 1st class passengers wouldn't have known which end of the platform to stand at. The arrangement does have the advantage that the driving end cars are the same on both sub-classes. The original plan was to have another 8-car subclass with standard accommodation only, but this was abandoned.

 

[Bishopstone]

I think it's inconceivable the 700s will go into service with First Class at both ends. Given the reduction in Standard seated capacity versus 377s/387s of equivalent length, an increase in First Class provision just won't wash, politically.

If First Class isn't abolished entirely - and that remains my prediction - I would expect it to be set-out at one end routinely, so commuters have certainty as to where to wait on the platform.

 

[AM9]

... Given the reduction in Standard seated capacity versus 377s/387s of equivalent length, ...

The service when the 700s are introduced will provide many more seats than the current hotch-potch of 8 & 12-car trains.

 

[Bishopstone]

The service when the 700s are introduced will provide many more seats than the current hotch-potch of 8 & 12-car trains.

Really?

Until 2018 the timetable is (more or less) as now, isn't it? So no more services.

The only way you get more seats is to replace 8-car diagrams with 12-car diagrams, wholesale. Replacing 12-car 377/387 with 12-car 700 is a net loss of seats which puts you behind, to start with.

But to take an actual example, are you saying that Thameslink departures from Haywards Heath to London between 06.30 and 08.00, M-F, will have more seated capacity in February 2017 than they do in February 2016?

 

[fusionblue]

Will any of the 700 testing involve stuffing a unit to full and squished-on-doors and emptying it out (and loading it back up) at every single stop to see how it copes?

Or some equivalent "real life" test..

 

[DerekC]

Will any of the 700 testing involve stuffing a unit to full and squished-on-doors and emptying it out (and loading it back up) at every single stop to see how it copes?

Or some equivalent "real life" test..

I very much doubt it. The type testing will have included maximum load tests and testing of door cycle times etc. The dwell times should be better than current stock but the proof of the pudding ....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The only way you get more seats is to replace 8-car diagrams with 12-car diagrams, wholesale. Replacing 12-car 377/387 with 12-car 700 is a net loss of seats which puts you behind, to start with.

Have you got the figures to prove that? Thinking about it, a 12-car 700 has four less cabs and two less disabled toilets than an equivalent 377 or 387. This should somewhere near compensate for the wider doors, assuming both have 2+2 seating.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

If First Class isn't abolished entirely - and that remains my prediction - I would expect it to be set-out at one end routinely, so commuters have certainty as to where to wait on the platform.

With this point in mind.... the loop line?

 

[Deepgreen]

I think it's inconceivable the 700s will go into service with First Class at both ends. Given the reduction in Standard seated capacity versus 377s/387s of equivalent length, an increase in First Class provision just won't wash, politically.

If First Class isn't abolished entirely - and that remains my prediction - I would expect it to be set-out at one end routinely, so commuters have certainty as to where to wait on the platform.

Possibly, but I don't see why they would have been delivered in their current configuration if only to be re-worked before service. Also, with first at one end only, intending passengers run the risk of being 11.5 cars away from their seats if the units are not kept the same way round at all times and all are not orientated the same.

 

[AM9]

Really?

Until 2018 the timetable is (more or less) as now, isn't it? So no more services.

The only way you get more seats is to replace 8-car diagrams with 12-car diagrams, wholesale. Replacing 12-car 377/387 with 12-car 700 is a net loss of seats which puts you behind, to start with.

But to take an actual example, are you saying that Thameslink departures from Haywards Heath to London between 06.30 and 08.00, M-F, will have more seated capacity in February 2017 than they do in February 2016?

The timetable will be widely recast, so treating current train seating as a microcosm of Thameslink in the future after £6.5BN has been spent on infrastructure and trains does not contribute much to a discussion about future seating and standing capacity.
Try reading what a regular poster who is informed about the Thameslink programme, has said many times about the designed capacity of Thameslink services in this very thread, see post #2051. The argument about 'seats per coach' proving less seats in total, has been postulated so many times (including the dreaded 3+2 seats which so many claim are wasted anyway because nobody wants to sit in them) indicates that some here maybe just don't want to accept what has clearly been explained many times.

 

[Deepgreen]

They didn't want to put 1st class in one end only on the 700/0s because 1st class passengers wouldn't have known which end of the platform to stand at. The arrangement does have the advantage that the driving end cars are the same on both sub-classes. The original plan was to have another 8-car subclass with standard accommodation only, but this was abandoned.

Yes, understood, but my point was about the lower proportion of first class seats in a 12 car unit than an eight car. In order to have balanced the proportions more, I would have expected an additional small first class section somewhere in the middle of the 700/1 units, or, as I said, fewer first class seats in a 700/0, again to balance the proportions between the two sub-classes.

 

[Bishopstone]

The timetable will be widely recast, so treating current train seating as a microcosm of Thameslink in the future after £6.5BN has been spent on infrastructure and trains does not contribute much to a discussion about future seating and standing capacity.
Try reading what a regular poster who is informed about the Thameslink programme, has said many times about the designed capacity of Thameslink services in this very thread, see post #2051. The argument about 'seats per coach' proving less seats in total, has been postulated so many times (including the dreaded 3+2 seats which so many claim are wasted anyway because nobody wants to sit in them) indicates that some here maybe just don't want to accept what has clearly been explained many times.

So for clarity, do you dispute my belief that the number of seats on peak Thameslink services between (as an example) Haywards Heath and Zone 1 will fall, over the next twelve months? I'm happy for you to correct me if your understanding is that the number of seats will rise, but I notice you didn't take the opportunity to do so in your response.

Please consider the context of my remarks, which were in reference to the provision of First Class accommodation on the 700s, and my belief it will be restricted to one end of the trains, or none, when they are introduced. I didn't make any other comment on the 700s generally.

Yes, the timetable will be recast for 2018, but in the interim I think Govia/DFT would find it hard to justify increasing First Class seating whilst Standard seating is reduced.

Until the London Bridge route re-opens, Haywards Heath - City Thameslink is an average 65 minute journey, or 55 minutes from Three Bridges: I can assure you the centre seats in the 3+2 (on 377/5s) are used, and if you think commuters will just accept more standing space as a suitable alternative, for an hour, I think you've mis-judged. Hence my belief they'll pare-back First Class to help a bit, which was the only point I was seeking to make on this occasion.

 

[AM9]

So for clarity, do you dispute my belief that the number of seats on peak Thameslink services between (as an example) Haywards Heath and Zone 1 will fall, over the next twelve months? I'm happy for you to correct me if your understanding is that the number of seats will rise, but I notice you didn't take the opportunity to do so in your response.

I don't have a view of the the services between Haywards Heath and Zone 1 but on reflection would observe that the station is served by both Southern and Thameslink services. Here north of London, any similar choice doesn't really exist. In the period between now and when the full service is rolled out, it is inevitable that there will be temporary rises (and falls) in provision. The 700s are being provided to address projected passenger increases to 2040 and beyond so short-term perturbations will just have to be endured.

Please consider the context of my remarks, which were in reference to the provision of First Class accommodation on the 700s, and my belief it will be restricted to one end of the trains, or none, when they are introduced. I didn't make any other comment on the 700s generally.

I suspect that may be true.

Yes, the timetable will be recast for 2018, but in the interim I think Govia/DFT would find it hard to justify increasing First Class seating whilst Standard seating is reduced.

In the quasi-privatisation that we now have, Govia's (like all other TOCs') path seems to be maximise profit whilst doing just enough to avoid censure. In such an environment, anything is possible, particularly as the politicians that are supposed to have our interests in mind, also have to defend the mess that they have created under the premise of 'freedom and choice'!

Until the London Bridge route re-opens, Haywards Heath - City Thameslink is an average 65 minute journey, or 55 minutes from Three Bridges: I can assure you the centre seats in the 3+2 (on 377/5s) are used, and if you think commuters will just accept more standing space as a suitable alternative, for an hour, I think you've mis-judged. Hence my belief they'll pare-back First Class to help a bit, which was the only point I was seeking to make on this occasion.

The many comments about 3-seats aren't really mine but many posters on here, but 2+3 layouts do have a restricting effect on circulation within coaches when they are heavily loaded. In the modern railway, commuters may not 'accept it' but other than changing their mode of travel, there isn't much choice for the resons that I alluded to above. The GTR may well do a quick fix of declassifying 1st class but then we'll have a repeat of the Electrostar fiasco where many passengers won't really be sure which is which, particularly on 8-car sets which will can arrive either way round.

 

[itfcfan]

I saw a class 700 heading north on the slows around Mill Hill Broadway around 12:10 yesterday. Looking through the available trains, I *think* it was this:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O69084/2016/02/09/advanced

Have they been doing daylight tests on the MML for long? This was the first time I'd seen one on the move...

 

[Sunset route]

Three sets have come out to play again today.

 

[Deepgreen]

I note from RTT that there are two 3xxx headcode workings due to pass Purley southbound at 1513 today - one (Bedford to Three Bridges depot) described as "ECS", and the other (Blackfriars to Three Bridges depot) as "test". My question is; are both likely to run and does this present the prospect of parallel 387/2 and 700 running? In reality I suspect that the former working will not run as it has not yet been activated in RTT (the other one has been), but some here may know otherwise.
EDIT - both trains are now activated in RTT. The question still partly stands - parallel running in prospect?

 

[Class377/5]

So for clarity, do you dispute my belief that the number of seats on peak Thameslink services between (as an example) Haywards Heath and Zone 1 will fall, over the next twelve months? I'm happy for you to correct me if your understanding is that the number of seats will rise, but I notice you didn't take the opportunity to do so in your response.

Please consider the context of my remarks, which were in reference to the provision of First Class accommodation on the 700s, and my belief it will be restricted to one end of the trains, or none, when they are introduced. I didn't make any other comment on the 700s generally.

Yes, the timetable will be recast for 2018, but in the interim I think Govia/DFT would find it hard to justify increasing First Class seating whilst Standard seating is reduced.

Until the London Bridge route re-opens, Haywards Heath - City Thameslink is an average 65 minute journey, or 55 minutes from Three Bridges: I can assure you the centre seats in the 3+2 (on 377/5s) are used, and if you think commuters will just accept more standing space as a suitable alternative, for an hour, I think you've mis-judged. Hence my belief they'll pare-back First Class to help a bit, which was the only point I was seeking to make on this occasion.

Considering that currently Southern brand services will transfer to Thameslink before KO2 in 2018, but you could use word play.

Don't mistake that the peak TL service on BML to Brighton is 2tph not 4tph like it is off peak.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I note from RTT that there are two 3xxx headcode workings due to pass Purley southbound at 1513 today - one (Bedford to Three Bridges depot) described as "ECS", and the other (Blackfriars to Three Bridges depot) as "test". My question is; are both likely to run and does this present the prospect of parallel 387/2 and 700 running? In reality I suspect that the former working will not run as it has not yet been activated in RTT (the other one has been), but some here may know otherwise.
EDIT - both trains are now activated in RTT. The question still partly stands - parallel running in prospect?

Er the 387/2 and 700 are to work alongside each other for many years.

 

[Deepgreen]

Of course, but as a new stock 'news item' it would be of interest to some. Anyway, it turned out to be two 700s, which formed consecutive departures from platform 3 at East Croydon.

Incidentally, both units (700109 and 700110) had full, 'permanent' first class labelling (yellow stripe, window stickers and '1st' labels on the bodysides by the doors) on both driving cars and therefore I will be surprised if any de-classification takes place. As I have already said, having a first class section at one end only leaves intending passengers potentially having to walk 11.5 cars to get to their seats unless every unit is kept strictly in the same orientation in service and the position of the first class section is marked on platforms - I know the core TL route is a straightforward end-to-end and it should be possible to keep the 700/1 units the same way round forever, but the Sutton loop means that the 700/0s will turn all the time (and even potentially the 700/1s in out-of-course circumstances).

 

[Sunset route]

Of course, but as a new stock 'news item' it would be of interest to some. Anyway, it turned out to be two 700s, which formed consecutive departures from platform 3 at East Croydon.

Incidentally, both units (700109 and 700110) had full, 'permanent' first class labelling (yellow stripe, window stickers and '1st' labels on the bodysides by the doors) on both driving cars and therefore I will be surprised if any de-classification takes place. As I have already said, having a first class section at one end only leaves intending passengers potentially having to walk 11.5 cars to get to their seats unless every unit is kept strictly in the same orientation in service and the position of the first class section is marked on platforms - I know the core TL route is a straightforward end-to-end and it should be possible to keep the 700/1 units the same way round forever, but the Sutton loop means that the 700/0s will turn all the time (and even potentially the 700/1s in out-of-course circumstances).

Until they run the Lewes diversionary route

 

[Class377/5]

Until they run the Lewes diversionary route

Which they might do before coming into service. And then there's Selhurst depot.

This suggestion of unmarking first class is a complete non starter as Siemens are contracted go provide it, so provide it they will. Its the DfT/TOC that will decide what is declassified.

 

[Domh245]

Incidentally, both units (700109 and 700110) had full, 'permanent' first class labelling (yellow stripe, window stickers and '1st' labels on the bodysides by the doors) on both driving cars and therefore I will be surprised if any de-classification takes place. As I have already said, having a first class section at one end only leaves intending passengers potentially having to walk 11.5 cars to get to their seats unless every unit is kept strictly in the same orientation in service and the position of the first class section is marked on platforms - I know the core TL route is a straightforward end-to-end and it should be possible to keep the 700/1 units the same way round forever, but the Sutton loop means that the 700/0s will turn all the time (and even potentially the 700/1s in out-of-course circumstances).

There is first class at both ends, and I expect it will be fitted out as such regardless of the service it is working, it would be far too much hassle to remove all those antimacassars after all! The Wimbledon loop services will run permanently declassified, so first class isn't an issue for that. In my opinion, the logical solution would be to say that if first were to be reduced to only 1 compartment instead of 2 on a service, that it is always (for example) the Southern end of the train that is the in use compartment on southbound journeys, and vice versa. Of course, if you knew this, you could then travel in the declassified section, preferably at the cost of being at the 'inconvenient' end of the train.

 

[GodAtum]

I think it's inconceivable the 700s will go into service with First Class at both ends. Given the reduction in Standard seated capacity versus 377s/387s of equivalent length, an increase in First Class provision just won't wash, politically.

If First Class isn't abolished entirely - and that remains my prediction - I would expect it to be set-out at one end routinely, so commuters have certainty as to where to wait on the platform.

I hope 1st class are on the ends like the 377s, otherwise it's sods law people will stand in the wrong place!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Are they currently on-course with their so many thousand miles of trouble free testing?

 

[trainmania100]

Does anyone know if they will be doing any testing at weekends to come?

Also are there any plans to run them via east coast way southern for testing during diversions etc

 

[LBSCR Times]

Does anyone know if they will be doing any testing at weekends to come?

Also are there any plans to run them via east coast way southern for testing during diversions etc

No and No!

 

[Class377/5]

Does anyone know if they will be doing any testing at weekends to come?

Also are there any plans to run them via east coast way southern for testing during diversions etc

No and No!

Haywards Heath to Brighton via Lewes is as far they get on that side of things.

 

[jon0844]

There is first class at both ends, and I expect it will be fitted out as such regardless of the service it is working, it would be far too much hassle to remove all those antimacassars after all! The Wimbledon loop services will run permanently declassified, so first class isn't an issue for that. In my opinion, the logical solution would be to say that if first were to be reduced to only 1 compartment instead of 2 on a service, that it is always (for example) the Southern end of the train that is the in use compartment on southbound journeys, and vice versa. Of course, if you knew this, you could then travel in the declassified section, preferably at the cost of being at the 'inconvenient' end of the train.

Those fancy colour screens inside should be more than capable of showing when first class is and isn't in operation, and at which ends.

Whether that happens is another matter.