Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[D365]

I think that a lot of people here are rather exaggerating the difficulty of mundane tasks. It isn't all that hard to hold a coffee in your hand without suddenly throwing it all over the person next to you and the chair in front.

Judging by the number of incidents I've seen, even with able-bodied people, I'd have to say otherwise...
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Lower leg length and leg size are key - they are fine if your leg doesn't reach them or will go under them, but if not they force your knees to the right, making the window seat very uncomfortable.

My legs are where most of my height comes from! But I usually manage to sit where the window seat opposite is empty.

 

[AM9]

Personally I regard the 450s as modern day VEPs. The 700s are trams with toilets...

Either way, the 700s are here for 30+ years, - get used to that. It is also likely that in the future, other high density commuter lines* will have similar designs, maybe Desiro, Aventra or AT200 based. European systems point the way.
Think GEML, SWML, even SE.

 

[jon0844]

In coach layout, a small recycle bin has been fitted right underneath the window, which has a lid that is big enough to put a cup of coffee onto. In a four seater spot, a small table has been installed:

Even a 317 has a small side table that's probably good enough for a coffee cup.

Many Swedish trains also have a small bin per table, and I've also seen TOC-branded bags that can be torn off and used as a makeshift bin. (Sadly, the latter would likely mean a lot of bags nicked by people for a laugh).

I am sure that within the lifetime of the 700s, there will be some tweaks.

Who knows, in 30 years time there might be other rail upgrades that lessen some of the demand on the route, and we'll have also reached the utopia of driverless vehicles and cheap, plentiful, renewable energy and all be riding around in emission-free cars, or cheap powered bikes..

..or maybe not much will have changed at all, or the population will have shot up so much that they'll be as busy as ever.

 

[RobShipway]

Errr, mobility-wise you don't have problems, do you..?
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I'm 6'1", similar sorts of bins are fitted on German S-Bahn/regional EMUs, but I haven't found any issues with it.

No, but I know a few people that are in wheelchairs that have also carried drinks on to trains when using class 450/458 trains without an issues.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Judging by the number of incidents I've seen, even with able-bodied people, I'd have to say otherwise...

It's not that easy to hold a coffee *and* read a newspaper, book etc. You can put it on the floor but it's a bit awkward.

 

[RobShipway]

It's not that easy to hold a coffee *and* read a newspaper, book etc. You can put it on the floor but it's a bit awkward.

But it is possible for the able bodied as I have been able to do that and hold a rucksack between my legs without any issues.

I have also seen a few people in wheelchairs be able to hold a drink, although they have got any bags on their lap which then makes it difficult for them to read any papers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But it is possible for the able bodied as I have been able to do that and hold a rucksack between my legs without any issues.

It's certainly possible, but it's not so easy. And the problem with anything that's not easy involving hot drinks is that it does periodically cause them to go over other passengers, the seats, the floor etc, causing injury, damage to clothing and the train, a cleaning job and general awkwardness.

You could ban hot drinks on trains without tables (as they are on many buses), but that would be highly unpopular and would likely just be ignored. So to prevent problems, proper accommodation needs to be provided for them. A small shelf on the window side isn't a difficult addition - Chiltern even saw fit to make these into actual cupholders, further reducing spillage.

 

[LBSCR Times]

It's certainly possible, but it's not so easy. And the problem with anything that's not easy involving hot drinks is that it does periodically cause them to go over other passengers, the seats, the floor etc, causing injury, damage to clothing and the train, a cleaning job and general awkwardness.

You could ban hot drinks on trains without tables (as they are on many buses), but that would be highly unpopular and would likely just be ignored. So to prevent problems, proper accommodation needs to be provided for them. A small shelf on the window side isn't a difficult addition - Chiltern even saw fit to make these into actual cupholders, further reducing spillage.

Some people cannot have travelled on the Brighton Mainline....
If you have then you know the places you get flung from side to side, and it isn't always at Junctions either.
And try eating a hot sandwich and holding a coffee at the same time!
The early morning commute is breakfast time for many.
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No.
The next trips should be Monday evening, over to the AC side of the route.
And not coming back until Friday.....

Revised tonight, probably going to Brighton first.

 

[andrewkeith5]

And try eating a hot sandwich and holding a coffee at the same time!
The early morning commute is breakfast time for many.

This is something I've managed perfectly safely many a time whilst standing up on a 377 racing across what feels like the face of the moon. Drink in the left hand, rucksack between feet, breakfast in the right hand and lean on a nearby pillar or wall - easy really!

When finished with breakfast, the right hand is free to hold the smartphone or Kindle - who bothers with paper anymore? Far too cumbersome for the modern commuter...

Cup holders would be a nice addition, yes, but ultimately it's capacity that matters on anything that's used on a commuter or airport service - of which Thameslink is both. I will miss the tables, but I'll live...there is always the option of just using a 377 or 387 operated service in the south or an EMT service in the north - and are the journey times on GN services where there isn't a VTEC option for at least some of the distance really that lengthy, given there will be a variety of the older trains available on that route, too...

For now I'm happy that we're getting brand new trains, which will be much easier to circulate in when quiet, and have massive capacity which is desperately needed when busy...I'll reserve any further judgement until I see one for real and get to travel on one - I'm sure there will be some moditifacitons in their lifetime.

 

[physics34]

The 700s will safely carry over 1700 passengers per 12-car unit. Thameslink services struggle to carry the current load of passengers. The new trains are designed to last for 30+ years when passenger numbers are expected to greatly increase. There aren't any options to increase the number of trains through the core after ATO is operational and there is little that can be done to turn extra trains at either Kings Cross or St Pancras, so £1.6 billion has been spent on a train that is specified to do the job. A 365 style layout just wouldn't be able to cope in a few years and there would be no way of improving the situation.
I imagine that a cup of coffee bought in London would either be drunk well before reaching Cambridge/Peterborough/Brighton, - or it would be stone cold. Hopefully, common sense (so often referred to here) would prevail on a train that doesn't have tables. I've seen passengers carrying coffee onto Overground trains without throwing it over anybody.

I'm talking about people who will be on the trains for over an hour who would want to watch something on their tablet, use their laptops etc etc, especially as WiFi is gonna be fitted!! They are fine for metro work but it's a real basic train from those who travel further.

 

[neilm]

I'm talking about people who will be on the trains for over an hour who would want to watch something on their tablet, use their laptops etc etc, especially as WiFi is gonna be fitted!! They are fine for metro work but it's a real basic train from those who travel further.

Yes not sure about the whole coffee thing but tablets and laptops surely require a table.

 

[JaJaWa]

Yes not sure about the whole coffee thing but tablets and laptops surely require a table.

There goes me reading too much into "laptop" computer, perhaps they should be called "tabletops"!

 

[neilm]

There goes me reading too much into "laptop" computer, perhaps they should be called "tabletops"!

Lol, a laptop with a coffee holder [emoji6]

 

[physics34]

There goes me reading too much into "laptop" computer, perhaps they should be called "tabletops"!

Ha ha you can't use a laptop on your lap on a train sealed in that position.... At home you are able slouch ha ha. Plus you'd get a pain in the neck.
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Yes not sure about the whole coffee thing but tablets and laptops surely require a table.

You do see a lot of rush hour people with a coffee cup in their hand in the morning though. Surely fold up tables etc should be a minimum requirement!

 

[bramling]

This is something I've managed perfectly safely many a time whilst standing up on a 377 racing across what feels like the face of the moon. Drink in the left hand, rucksack between feet, breakfast in the right hand and lean on a nearby pillar or wall - easy really!

When finished with breakfast, the right hand is free to hold the smartphone or Kindle - who bothers with paper anymore? Far too cumbersome for the modern commuter...

Cup holders would be a nice addition, yes, but ultimately it's capacity that matters on anything that's used on a commuter or airport service - of which Thameslink is both. I will miss the tables, but I'll live...there is always the option of just using a 377 or 387 operated service in the south or an EMT service in the north - and are the journey times on GN services where there isn't a VTEC option for at least some of the distance really that lengthy, given there will be a variety of the older trains available on that route, too...

For now I'm happy that we're getting brand new trains, which will be much easier to circulate in when quiet, and have massive capacity which is desperately needed when busy...I'll reserve any further judgement until I see one for real and get to travel on one - I'm sure there will be some moditifacitons in their lifetime.

For the majority of GN users, the class 700 will be the only option - especially off-peak.

Personally I'd have preferred a service along the lines of

1tph Kings Lynn - KX fast from Cambridge (377)
1tph Cambridge - Thameslink (semi-fast) (700)
1tph Cambridge - Thameslink (slow) (700)
1tph Kings Lynn - Thameslink fast from Cambridge (700)
1tph Cambridge - KX (semi-fast) (365 or 377)
1tph Letchworth - KX (slow) (365)
1tph Peterborough - KX (365)
1tph Peterborough - Thameslink (700)

The reduction in services through the Thameslink core would reduce some of the issues surrounding loading times, in turn allowing a more comfortable interior, in turn allowing Cambridge to benefit from faster journey times into Thameslink, and also allowing Kings Lynn to get more capacity and through journeys.

I'd also look at making all 700s 12-car. Locking the Cambridge-Tattenham Corner service to 8-cars is not helpful, if capacity really is so vitally important the 8-car 700s wouldn't have been ordered as such.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes not sure about the whole coffee thing but tablets and laptops surely require a table.

Other than very large tablets e.g. Surface and iPad Pro, the strength of a tablet over a laptop is precisely that it does *not* require a table.

I got a fair bit of work done on my iPad last night in the back row seat of a Ford Galaxy taxi on the way from Preston to Edinburgh (though it was not, I will be honest, a proper substitute for the First Class seat I had actually paid for in order that I could get said work done).

 

[physics34]

Other than very large tablets e.g. Surface and iPad Pro, the strength of a tablet over a laptop is precisely that it does *not* require a table.

I got a fair bit of work done on my iPad last night in the back row seat of a Ford Galaxy taxi on the way from Preston to Edinburgh (though it was not, I will be honest, a proper substitute for the First Class seat I had actually paid for in order that I could get said work done).

the amount of people who watch a film on there ipads and tablets though etc etc. You dont want to hold it for 1 hr 45 mins.
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For the majority of GN users, the class 700 will be the only option - especially off-peak.

Personally I'd have preferred a service along the lines of

1tph Kings Lynn - KX fast from Cambridge (377)
1tph Cambridge - Thameslink (semi-fast) (700)
1tph Cambridge - Thameslink (slow) (700)
1tph Kings Lynn - Thameslink fast from Cambridge (700)
1tph Cambridge - KX (semi-fast) (365 or 377)
1tph Letchworth - KX (slow) (365)
1tph Peterborough - KX (365)
1tph Peterborough - Thameslink (700)

The reduction in services through the Thameslink core would reduce some of the issues surrounding loading times, in turn allowing a more comfortable interior, in turn allowing Cambridge to benefit from faster journey times into Thameslink, and also allowing Kings Lynn to get more capacity and through journeys.

I'd also look at making all 700s 12-car. Locking the Cambridge-Tattenham Corner service to 8-cars is not helpful, if capacity really is so vitally important the 8-car 700s wouldn't have been ordered as such.

I dont know about north of the thames but Purley Platforms 5 and 6 can only hold 10 car and Tattenham can just about old 9 cars, so to have 12 cars down there would need major engineering work. Impossible at purley due to space constraints.

 

[LLivery]

I still don't understand why there couldn't be some tables in standard. What was the reasoning? I'd argue people use tables more now than they ever did and us Southern and Thameslink passengers have got quite used to them in and out of the suburban network. I like the 450s but the one thing I dislike about them is the lack of tables.

 

[bramling]

the amount of people who watch a film on there ipads and tablets though etc etc. You dont want to hold it for 1 hr 45 mins.
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I dont know about north of the thames but Purley Platforms 5 and 6 can only hold 10 car and Tattenham can just about old 9 cars, so to have 12 cars down there would need major engineering work. Impossible at purley due to space constraints.

In which case don't send them down that branch.

On the GN side, the 8-car platforms generally fall in the awkward but not impossible category. Welwyn GC and Potters Bar would require remodelling of the track layout, Knebworth Welwyn North and Hatfield should be slightly easier.

It's a joke that Thameslink claims to add capacity, yet makes no effort to lengthen these platforms. By the looks of it there's no frequency increase to these stations, and no length increase during the peaks compared to today. The reality is passengers expect a seat on these services, and have no difficulty getting one today on most trains.

 

[Goldfish62]

Either way, the 700s are here for 30+ years, - get used to that. It is also likely that in the future, other high density commuter lines* will have similar designs, maybe Desiro, Aventra or AT200 based. European systems point the way.
Think GEML, SWML, even SE.

Bit puzzled as to why you are asking me to "get used to that", but never mind.

What European practice are the 700s based on? Certainly not any modern stock in Germany, France, Belgium or Sweden I've travelled on recently. In fact there are reports from when it was displayed at Innotrans of people expressing surprise at how basic the interior was based on the services it would be used on.

 

[Bald Rick]

I still don't understand why there couldn't be some tables in standard. What was the reasoning? I'd argue people use tables more now than they ever did and us Southern and Thameslink passengers have got quite used to them in and out of the suburban network. I like the 450s but the one thing I dislike about them is the lack of tables.

Presumably because for most of the last 25 years TL standard class passengers have had standard class without tables. It's only in the last 6 years or so that tables have appeared, and even then only for less than half the standard seats in a 377.

 

[southern442]

Obviously not everyone is going to have a muscle spasm and send coffee rocketing across the train carriage if there are no tables, but that isn't really the main point here. Seat back tables and small tables in group seats aren't a necessity, but they are a useful and practical bit of gear that all (if not most, I know there are some exceptions) passengers commuting longer distances into London have had for some time now, and with gadgets on the rise, they are becoming more and more useful, so it seems a shame that the people who are supposed to be providing for the needs of the customer are missing these out from this latest design of outer suburban train. If they had these, there would be far less complaints, and they would come across as being able to cater more for the majority of passengers using them, even if there won't be as many seats there.

 

[Pumbaa]

I remain confused as to why DfT thinks it acceptable for the 700s to have no tables/fold down seat back tables, when recent ITTs for franchises have mandated >90% seats to have that exact facility.

Maybe they'll confirm once they've explained what the hell the entire EA ITT was all about.

 

[Class377/5]

People wondering an 2008 ITT isn't same a 2015 ITT? Strange.

Meanwhile 700106 should making mainline debut along the AC run a 700 shortly.

 

[Sebastian O]

I remain confused as to why DfT thinks it acceptable for the 700s to have no tables/fold down seat back tables, when recent ITTs for franchises have mandated >90% seats to have that exact facility.

Maybe they'll confirm once they've explained what the hell the entire EA ITT was all about.

Because now the seats in First Class are solid they need something to sell the First Class tickets on..

I have a video somewhere explaining it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because now the seats in First Class are solid they need something to sell the First Class tickets on..

I have a video somewhere explaining it!

The selling point for First Class in the Sarfeast is getting a seat.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The selling point for First Class in the Sarfeast is getting a seat.

Fraid so, you are too right. I sussed that in the days of VEPs and CIGs. Also, in those days, entering a smoking compartment was also likely to yield a seat !.

But I too find it amazing that there is not a small table for most seats. What does it cost and what are the penalties ?. Brought to you by the same folk that specified IEP. Of course the indicator of where facilities are heading is to be seen on inner suburban stock like the 378 - less seats.

However all is not lost as Costa and Starbuks will be up in arms when they realise no customer will have a place to put their expensive cup of coffee and so said companies will sponsor small tables - problem solved !.

 

[D365]

However all is not lost as Costa and Starbuks will be up in arms when they realise no customer will have a place to put their expensive cup of coffee and so said companies will sponsor small tables - problem solved !.

Surely our first priority is to chase down such corporations and to make them pay their dues; taxes that are ultimately funding this new rolling stock :roll:

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fraid so, you are too right. I sussed that in the days of VEPs and CIGs. Also, in those days, entering a smoking compartment was also likely to yield a seat !.

Yes, I used to use that as a means of ensuring a seat on busy WCML services. It wasn't any worse than sitting in a 1990s pub - quite different from the thick unbreathable fug that tended to permeate the Raucherabteil on DB. Das Oeffnen des Fensters ist streng verboten!

 

[Bishopstone]

I have a hunch First Class will be abolished before the 700s enter service, in which case some longer-distance commuters can bag the better specified areas with tables and sockets.