Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[SpacePhoenix]

The cab doors can only be egressed about 3 times (apparently) before the mechanism has to be replaced so we always use the buttons on the back panel to open and close the door

Could that be considered to be a design floor? It seems crazy that the cab doors (btw are we talking about the external cab doors or the internal cab doors) can only be used 3 times before the mechanism (locking?) has to be replaced!

 

[Alteran Ancient]

Could that be considered to be a design floor? It seems crazy that the cab doors (btw are we talking about the external cab doors or the internal cab doors) can only be used 3 times before the mechanism (locking?) has to be replaced!

I'm not sure if this could be referring to the emergency handle versus the T-key release to open the door in normal circumstances.

 

[APUK002]

Yep. These were highlighted a few times after Grayling made his claim that it was a waste of time to fit buttons to new trains all for the sake of allowing a Guard to open/close the doors. He was either mis-informed about the spec of the 700s, or he was mis-leading the public to further his rhetoric, because the 700s already had the buttons fitted as new.

To prevent the egress issue, I don't see why the driver can't just co-ordinate with the platform staff to close the doors with a member of staff on board, allow the staff to tip-out the pax using the GOPs where necessary, and then just disembark via the driver's cab, thus completely avoiding the need to use any egress handles.

Yes,could do that.

 

[Class2ldn]

That's exactly what's supposed to happen

 

[tsr]

The Class 700 which was due to work 1B25 has been sitting in London Bridge Platform 11 for about 90mins with a TPWS fault. Could get messy if not moved by mid-afternoon.

I'm not sure what safety critical has to do with it but I'm almost certain that all our platform staff who work with the trains are considered safety critical.

They’re not - at least in the metro area (same applies over on Southern as well). It matters because they should be assessed and qualified for things like using door controls, as misuse could result in some quite dangerous situations.

However...

Everyone who touches the units have been trained and certified to do so. Even our cleaners operate door panels.

... if that’s the case with the uses of 700s then that’s good to hear.

All our units can be egressed in an out with no impact on the unit. 700's are overly complex at the best of times but so far egressing them has had no impact that I am aware of. We have been egressing them since day 1.

Is that software based door release, or using the emergency handles?

 

[387star]

Regarding over use of the pis I note on 377s the auto PA simply announces the station once stopped ie 'Barnham' is this new.. I assumed a fault but several trains are like that without checking unit numbers I can't believe this is coincidental

 

[Domh245]

In between all of the noise about GOPs and fragile door mechanisms, it seems that the news that 700128 and 700125 were in service on Peterborough - Kings Cross services went unreported. They should be running back to Peterborough at 1742 and 1812 from Kings Cross, but with the disruption at the moment they may not.

 

[RichardKing]

Regarding over use of the pis I note on 377s the auto PA simply announces the station once stopped ie 'Barnham' is this new.. I assumed a fault but several trains are like that without checking unit numbers I can't believe this is coincidental

I noticed this today. I didn't take complete notice, but from what I remember: when passengers are boarding the usual 'This train is the Southern service to .... calling at ....' is played; when the train has departed, it now announces 'Welcome aboard the Southern service to .... The next station is ....'; and then when it has arrived at a station, as you say, it announces just the station name (and then, after a few seconds, it returns to 'This train is the Southern service to...')

 

[ComUtoR]

Is that software based door release, or using the emergency handles?

Handles.

Everything I drive has used the external egress to open the door when a unit is locked out. 700's appear to be no different in that respect. I believe the conflation has come about where the cab egress has been reported to have a very limited use. Also where there is a use of the word 'emergency'

The emergency egress inside the unit may operate differently and have a limited number of uses too and at no point have staff operated these. Even with the cab egress, there is no way into the unit without aux'ing it on unless you operate the external egress. It would be a very poor design if you couldn't enter a unit that has been cut out and needed to leave it so. Then again, its a 700. Nothing surprises me any more.

 

[jamieP]

In between all of the noise about GOPs and fragile door mechanisms, it seems that the news that 700128 and 700125 were in service on Peterborough - Kings Cross services went unreported. They should be running back to Peterborough at 1742 and 1812 from Kings Cross, but with the disruption at the moment they may not.

1742 has been cancelled and units running ECS to Peterborough.

 

[Hadders]

In between all of the noise about GOPs and fragile door mechanisms, it seems that the news that 700128 and 700125 were in service on Peterborough - Kings Cross services went unreported. They should be running back to Peterborough at 1742 and 1812 from Kings Cross, but with the disruption at the moment they may not.

I was on the 0736 from Stevenage this morning and made a few posts about the 'experience' on the Allocations and Diagrams thread

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/great-northern-class-700-diagrams.155704/page-5

 

[Fincra5]

Regarding over use of the pis I note on 377s the auto PA simply announces the station once stopped ie 'Barnham' is this new.. I assumed a fault but several trains are like that without checking unit numbers I can't believe this is coincidental

I'm impressed you were on a 377 with a working PIS. Half the time I try to set the cab up it fails "PIS database not available" Sigh.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I'm impressed you were on a 377 with a working PIS. Half the time I try to set the cab up it fails "PIS database not available" Sigh.

Can drivers reboot just the PIS or would they have to do a full train reboot to reboot the PIS?

 

[D365]

Can drivers reboot just the PIS or would they have to do a full train reboot to reboot the PIS?

Presumably just tripping out the relevant MCBs.

 

[387star]

Looking forward to sampling a 700 down the west coast way and Horsham if they really are starting next month

 

[tsr]

Presumably just tripping out the relevant MCBs.

Nope. Unless there’s time to aux it off & on, which there rarely is, you inform any onboard staff to do manual announcements, and try to set it up again at the next stop. If that fails, it may need to be checked over in a depot.

Unfortunately PIS database failures are not uncommon, and do result in confusion, especially on the huge number of Southern trains which divide en-route, with or without a second crew member (there’s not a lot one person can do when a three-way-splitting 12 coach train pulls into Clapham Junction with no working destination boards - or if the train is too busy to walk through to help people).

There are also delays if platform staff or conductors do not know if the train is ready to start, as the setup of PIS is the last thing the driver does in the sequence, given it then forms an audiovisual signal that they are ready to drive.

 

[wipers]

Just seen a Class 700 pulling in to Finsbury Park, which then passed me at Hornsey as I was on the bridge. In passenger service and pretty sure it’s 1P68 1812 London Kings Cross to Peterborough Great Northern service. Is this the first time one of the 700’s has done this Route carrying passengers? Looking forward to seeing more of these on this route in time.

 

[bramling]

Just seen a Class 700 pulling in to Finsbury Park, which then passed me at Hornsey as I was on the bridge. In passenger service and pretty sure it’s 1P68 1812 London Kings Cross to Peterborough Great Northern service. Is this the first time one of the 700’s has done this Route carrying passengers? Looking forward to seeing more of these on this route in time.

Yes this is the second down service, the first being 1P66 1742 KX-Peterborough. They were supposed to work yesterday, however both ended up going ECS due to the disruption.

Not sure many are looking forward to more of them in service, the general reaction seems to have been pretty negative regarding the two morning up services.

 

[Skimble19]

Yes this is the second down service, the first being 1P66 1742 KX-Peterborough. They were supposed to work yesterday, however both ended up going ECS due to the disruption.

Not sure many are looking forward to more of them in service, the general reaction seems to have been pretty negative regarding the two morning up services.

It's fair to say the reaction from the vast majority of GN passengers (especially those further north) has been rather negative but that's not exactly come as a surprise... replacing a 12 car 365 with a 12 car 700 for instance was never going to go down well...

Just to clarify with regards to the rear First Class section; this area is not declassified despite what some of the on board screens have displayed, that's an issue with the CIS that will hopefully be rectified soon. Unless announced by platform staff (or via a longline announcement from SDC) prior to the train departing first class will remain in operation at both ends until further notice.

 

[Kite159]

Just seen a Class 700 pulling in to Finsbury Park, which then passed me at Hornsey as I was on the bridge. In passenger service and pretty sure it’s 1P68 1812 London Kings Cross to Peterborough Great Northern service. Is this the first time one of the 700’s has done this Route carrying passengers? Looking forward to seeing more of these on this route in time.

The first of many services, poor Hertfordshire commuters having to join the rest of the the South East in might having to stand for their short commutes (all been downhill since the comfortable 3+2 317s were replaced by those evil 2+2 seated 365s).

---

On an unrelated note, I finally managed to sample a decent AC run on a 700 on Saturday morning, and they can certainly shift on a non-stop West Hampstead - St Albans service, and on the long section between Flitwick & Bedford.

 

[bramling]

The first of many services, poor Hertfordshire commuters having to join the rest of the the South East in might having to stand for their short commutes (all been downhill since the comfortable 3+2 317s were replaced by those evil 2+2 seated 365s).

I don't remember any complaining when the 365s arrived. In fact, I remember letters in local papers commenting on how wonderful privatisation was, bringing such nice new trains so quickly...

As a point of order, it's more Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshire rather than just Hertfordshire. I think Welwyn commuters probably would be reasonably content if they got 12-car trains. Oh...

 

[D365]

In fact, I remember letters in local papers commenting on how wonderful privatisation was, bringing such nice new trains so quickly...

Wasn’t it the 365s that were the last ordered before the 1000 day drought?

 

[bramling]

Wasn’t it the 365s that were the last ordered before the 1000 day drought?

Indeed. I forget the exact financing arrangements, but they were definitely a BR initiative.

I forget if they were intended for Southeastern or LTS, but a large number ended up on GN in order to make better use of their 100 mph capability and to help drive up off-peak business on routes such as Cambridge.

Arguably they had a nicer interior then too.

It's also worth adding that GN users also got the 317/6 refurbishment around the same time, which was designed to clone the 365s, and was rather well received. (Although I seem to remember some complaints about the loss of 3+2 seating!).

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed. I forget the exact financing arrangements, but they were definitely a BR initiative.

I forget if they were intended for Southeastern or LTS, but a large number ended up on GN in order to make better use of their 100 mph capability and to help drive up off-peak business on routes such as Cambridge.

Arguably they had a nicer interior then too.

It's also worth adding that GN users also got the 317/6 refurbishment around the same time, which was designed to clone the 365s, and was rather well received. (Although I seem to remember some complaints about the loss of 3+2 seating!).

They were always intended to be split between GN and SE, and they were leased, in a £150m deal; a sort of trial before the ROSCOs were set up. It was a political thing to get new trains in the southeast in the run up to privatisation when there was no money. However those conniving / clever people at Intercity West Coast almost scuppered the plan with a competing proposal to lease 11 new 91+MkIV sets to do the Manchesters, Pullmans, and some Anglo-Scots. Better business case, but didn't fit the politics, and the politics won.

 

[bramling]

They were always intended to be split between GN and SE, and they were leased, in a £150m deal; a sort of trial before the ROSCOs were set up. It was a political thing to get new trains in the southeast in the run up to privatisation when there was no money. However those conniving / clever people at Intercity West Coast almost scuppered the plan with a competing proposal to lease 11 new 91+MkIV sets to do the Manchesters, Pullmans, and some Anglo-Scots. Better business case, but didn't fit the politics, and the politics won.

I may well be misremembering, but I’m sure at some point the GN ones were earmarked for LTS to replace the 302s. In the event WAGN got 25 365s, but LTS only ever got 17 317/1s. Was LTS ever a serious plan, or am I just remembering rumours rather than actual intentions?

As an aside, I always thought 16 365s was a bit minimal for SouthEastern. It just about covered the premier Vic-Ramsgate service, and also at least some of the hourly CHX-Margate via Maidstone East and Canterbury West. One presumes the latter was chosen due to being 4 cars. I guess it nonetheless made a political statement in places like Maidstone, Canterbury and the Medway towns!

 

[wls1]

I may well be misremembering, but I’m sure at some point the GN ones were earmarked for LTS to replace the 302s. In the event WAGN got 25 365s, but in the event LTS only ever got 17 317/1s. Was this ever a serious plan, or am I just remembering rumours rather than actual intentions?

I remember a rumour that LTS was supposed to be getting the 375, and CSE the 357s; there is a few things that make this plausible tho, incorrect floor markings on 357s where the third seat looks out of place, 2x2 seating with tables by the cab ends and 375/6s having pantographs.

 

[APUK002]

It's fair to say the reaction from the vast majority of GN passengers (especially those further north) has been rather negative but that's not exactly come as a surprise... replacing a 12 car 365 with a 12 car 700 for instance was never going to go down well...

Just to clarify with regards to the rear First Class section; this area is not declassified despite what some of the on board screens have displayed, that's an issue with the CIS that will hopefully be rectified soon. Unless announced by platform staff (or via a longline announcement from SDC) prior to the train departing first class will remain in operation at both ends until further notice.

Oh right,so even if screens say ok it’s not (on GN)

 

[bramling]

Oh right,so even if screens say ok it’s not (on GN)

Yes. Whether a PF would stand up in that situation is another matter, however GN’s RPIs can be quite fussy about first class so it’s quite possible the matter would be pursued to at least some extent.

 

[APUK002]

Yes. Whether a PF would stand up in that situation is another matter, however GN’s RPIs can be quite fussy about first class so it’s quite possible the matter would be pursued to at least some extent.

Yes ok.

 

[D365]

I imagine that’s because Great Northern generally has a higher proportion of first class travel?

Good to know anyhow. I’ll need to check the diagrams against my December meeting times to see if I get a chance to cop a journey on one.