Want better, yes. Deserve better... I don't think so.
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Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress
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Want better, yes. Deserve better... I don't think so.
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Goldfish62
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Announcement from DfT / GTR a couple of months ago t tables and WiFi are being retrospectively fitted.
Alteran Ancient
Member
Quite likely - the majority (but not all) of Brighton services are now run by 700s. Try and sit at the back of the train if you can - you'll get the additional "comfort" of First Class seats and tables, except without the hefty price that comes with it. Rear First Class is always de-classified.
macaronlover
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Even on 8-carriage trains??
Trainspotter74
Member
Yes rear 1st class is declassified on all 700s, 8 or 12 car as, according to Thameslink on Twitter, it is so customers requiring tables have them.
spark001uk
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spark001uk
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Before the comments roll in - I'm not condoning this whatsoever - But I travel on these a lot, and I can't say I've seen anything in the way of enforcement against unauthorised use of the 'real' 1st class. Which I can only assume is much to the dismay of those punters who pay for it.
I've only ever been asked for my ticket on board once in over a year, and that was on a 319 between STP and WHP.
In the last couple of weeks, I've had a couple of ticket checks by the 'new' passenger hosts on Thameslink.
I have to admit that, bar one check last July when the 700s were new, I thought GTR had given up doing checks.
I've had more checks on Great Northern of late too. Perhaps this is why the 387s are now getting clear 1st class stickers on the internal doors and windows to make it abundantly clear where first class is (not before time!).
I have to admit that, bar one check last July when the 700s were new, I thought GTR had given up doing checks.
I've had more checks on Great Northern of late too. Perhaps this is why the 387s are now getting clear 1st class stickers on the internal doors and windows to make it abundantly clear where first class is (not before time!).
class387
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I've only had one check on Thameslink ever since FCC. It was on a 700 in Standard and I personally saw about five people getting PFs just visible to me alone.
Given these hosts work alone (I believe) I do wonder how effective they're going to be with those who tell them to take a hike, or large groups travelling together that will easily intimidate staff.
Working at the very least in pairs seems more sensible to me.
Goldfish62
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Surely that's just the view from your side of the counter though!
Maybe the same side that doesn't realise that without passengers the railways wouldn't exist.
It's also confirmed on the PIS displays. The cycle of seven different screens includes a warning notice about keeping your luggage with you, (it shows a hazard triangle in the small panel on the left hand side and the text on the main panel, - both with white backgrounds. That screen is replaced in the two rear first class displays with a blue background one, the small panel has a white disc containing a red exclaimation mark, the large panel has the text message:
"This area may be used by customers holding standard class tickets"
See attachedment below. The message is only displayed for 2-3 seconds.
Many's the times that I've sat in the realtive comfort of first class looking forward through three or five cars at the displays where I can see them simultaneously showing the different messages. The other cars are often packed with standing passengers whilst the first class area has about half the seats empty.
The only time when it isn't really worth getting in the declassified first class is in the peaks when it is full of commuters who all know about this.
Attachments
It's a shame that you will miss their real performance under OLE. They are quite crippled on a third rail system that can't provide the power needed.
Yes in the peaks, it can be standing in the rear 'first' class and with more room in standard, presumably as people still feel the need to get 'one up' on others.
First class isn't that big (nor are there that many tables), so when everyone knows it doesn't quite work!
However, the key difference is that 700s swallow up people and over time I think people will figure things out on their own - helped by the screens that do show how busy the train is throughout, and might make people reconsider where to board on their next journey.
Surely that's just the view from your side of the counter though!
Half and half to be honest.
The ticket prices are insane and I don't believe you get value for money. That's from both sides. When I have to pay its a nightmare. Everyone understands that the ticketing system needs a complete overhaul. Does that mean I think the paying passenger deserves tables and wifi etc. as part of the service. Crikey no. It's a first world problem and just contributes to increased fares.
I also feel that this is a metro service that transports people from point a to point b. Other than a seat and a toilet I feel that everything else is a luxury.
Something that is very much from my side of the counter is that passengers treat trains like ****. Not just vandalism, the casual littering and the general mess that people make is shocking. Trains are also heavily delayed by the passengers themselves. Delays drive me up the wall. The timetable also needs an overhaul. But when passengers are holding doors open, dive through them during the hustle alarm, leave litter in them so they don't close etc etc. I just find it ludicrus that the same people then complain the train is late.
Not forgetting that I'm one of those who doesn't believe that the passengers should suffer the bathtub curve and think its disgraceful that these units have so many issues. Why is that acceptable but a the lack of a table isn't :/
I think we all deserve trains that work, run on time and are at a reasonable price.
Deserve is a very strong word.
Shows the false economy of losing a guard to check. Many more know they can avoid paying and no checks. As long as every station isn't barriered first to last train it's losing money.
spark001uk
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Fair point. Being one of those who always bins their litter (and often others' as well), I do hate those who don't, and yes the majority of those who abuse the system in that, or other ways, are probably the same folk that complain. It is nonetheless a shame to see the abuse, especially on a brand new class which you would like to think would be even more respected.
The fares are somewhat poor value I agree, it's a bit of a joke when they say well we need to increase the fares to give you a better service, when in reality it has declined year after year and we're just paying for it to be put back how it was when we were paying less!
OK British rail had sh** sandwiches and a lot of services were late, but it's not much better now. Tho the food has improved (albeit having to pay through the nose for it), we all knew where we stood back then, and of course there was no chasing the dangling profit carrot either.
But I digress, apologies. Back on track, still a fair few 377s out and about, is this for operational reasons or are there still a number of 700s broken?
The fares are somewhat poor value I agree, it's a bit of a joke when they say well we need to increase the fares to give you a better service, when in reality it has declined year after year and we're just paying for it to be put back how it was when we were paying less!
OK British rail had sh** sandwiches and a lot of services were late, but it's not much better now. Tho the food has improved (albeit having to pay through the nose for it), we all knew where we stood back then, and of course there was no chasing the dangling profit carrot either.
But I digress, apologies. Back on track, still a fair few 377s out and about, is this for operational reasons or are there still a number of 700s broken?
Trainspotter74
Member
This morning a class 700 running the 2E09 service from Luton to Sevenoaks failed at Cricklewood due to a fault in the braking system. It ran as far as Kentish Town before the unit was withdrawn from service.
The 700s are improving their performance but obviously still some issues. Might explain the continued use of 377s.
The 700s are improving their performance but obviously still some issues. Might explain the continued use of 377s.
We we deserve better? Maybe, maybe not.
Cars (and even buses) get more comfortable with each new model that comes out but with the 700s we have to put up with rock hard ironing board seats, insufficient leg room, no tables, no carpet, insufficient litter bins, 1st class compartments where the door doesn't even fit properly (I know it's for air circulation but why not use a grill like on the 350s).
I've no problem with no wifi and no plug sockets, although I realise some will regard these as essential.
I've no problem with walk through carriages, wide doors, and fewer seats so more people can stand as long as the trains are longer so that overall seats are increased.
The interiors we've got on the 700s are a massive downgrade on the 365s we currently have on Great Northern. I don't think this is acceptable and I do think passengers deserve better.
Why can't we have a design similar to the interior of the 365s on the 700s?
spark001uk
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I was at West Hampstead earlier waiting to get on the sevenoaks (2E01), but the doors were saying no. Waiting about 15 mins then gave up and crossed over for a Sutton from P3 instead. 700044 I believe it was, a fairly newly introduced unit if I recall.
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Thameslink services have never had guards. And before them, their predecessors on the MML didn't either. You don't need a guard to check tickets.
I have seen a number of RPIs on the 700s, and plenty dishing out penalty fares to people in the front first class section. Not as many as in the FCC days though.
Agree with others that it is now pretty pointless to aim for the rearmost first class in the peak - unless you are on from Luton (or further north) in the am peak and Blackfriars in the pm, chances are you'll be standing. Indeed tonight I went for it at Blackfriars and still ended up standing.
Cars perhaps, but I will disagree with buses. Just about every newish bus I have been in recently is no more comfortable than their predecessors. As for the other things:
Hard seats - as with all trains with that type of seat, they are getting softer with age. Personally I have no problem with them at all - I had two hours on one a few weeks back and it was fine. Far more comfortable than the same journey on a 319 (train and plane!), or for that matter just about any Mk3 based EMU / DMU.
Leg room - I have a slight problem with, but then am 6'4". But again, less of a problem than on The 319s which I simply couldn't use in face to back, and caused a fun game of touchy-kneesy on face to face.
No tables - the 319s didn't have them in standard. Indeed the 365s didn't have much in that regard, certainly not laptopabble.
No carpet - genuinely, I don't notice these things. What difference does it make?
Litter bins - certainly more and bigger provision than on 319s.
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Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
The latest delivery being reported as having been seen in France today is 700 123.
Not as many as there were. 700s have gone from forming approx 50% of services to approx 70% in last 2 weeks.
Not sure if this has been mentioned in the thread but there seemed to be a couple of updated announcements on the trains today, different announcement at St Pancras "change here for services to Paris and Lille" plus the doors now open automatically in the core stations. Were they doing this before and I've been asleep or is that new?
Kite159
Veteran Member
Doors have been opening automatically in the core stations for a fair while.
Fair enough - can't remember it being announced before, but my travel is intermittent on Thameslink at the moment so if I'm just being dopey then I apologise
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