Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Bletchleyite]

I find them no worse than a 350/2 and better than a 319, personally.


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[Deepgreen]

At long last, I happened to catch a 700 yesterday, with a 12 car unit on the 1638 Blackfriars to Three Bridges (is this now rostered for 700s?).

A few observations: first class was at the front, and was quite busy with strike day 'de-classifieds'. The seats are OK, and at least are a different design to those in standard. The internal door is an oddity, in that it is hinged (somewhat similar to the 319s') and opens in both directions (more reliable than a powered set, I imagine). It has huge gaps between it and the glass screens down each side. What is the purpose of these gaps? It also has the legend 'First class' on the first class side of the door, which is contrary to the accepted norm of labelling a door with its purpose on the outside, not the inside! There's also an indecipherable pictogram on the door, similar to a small 'no smoking' sign, but indicating what I couldn't tell.

The train loading display was a little optimistic judging by the cars I noticed, and the shades of green shown on the key didn't match the actual one being used at the time.

There was no opportunity to sample the acceleration capabilities as we were stuck at 0mph all the way to South Croydon as usual, and then sped up unremarkably to Redhill.

The ride was firm but OK. The biggest single feature of note to me was the very fast door opening speed - they really fly apart!

 

[jon0844]

The first class doors are like that for ventilation (part of the fire protection) reasons, as has been explained better elsewhere on here.

There's apparently a complex smoke removal system in the roof, and so there can't be any sections completely closed off.

 

[tsr]

At long last, I happened to catch a 700 yesterday, with a 12 car unit on the 1638 Blackfriars to Three Bridges (is this now rostered for 700s?).

A few observations: first class was at the front, and was quite busy with strike day 'de-classifieds'. The seats are OK, and at least are a different design to those in standard. The internal door is an oddity, in that it is hinged (somewhat similar to the 319s') and opens in both directions (more reliable than a powered set, I imagine). It has huge gaps between it and the glass screens down each side. What is the purpose of these gaps? It also has the legend 'First class' on the first class side of the door, which is contrary to the accepted norm of labelling a door with its purpose on the outside, not the inside! There's also an indecipherable pictogram on the door, similar to a small 'no smoking' sign, but indicating what I couldn't tell.

The train loading display was a little optimistic judging by the cars I noticed, and the shades of green shown on the key didn't match the actual one being used at the time.

There was no opportunity to sample the acceleration capabilities as we were stuck at 0mph all the way to South Croydon as usual, and then sped up unremarkably to Redhill.

The ride was firm but OK. The biggest single feature of note to me was the very fast door opening speed - they really fly apart!

The first class doors are like that for ventilation (part of the fire protection) reasons, as has been explained better elsewhere on here.

There's apparently a complex smoke removal system in the roof, and so there can't be any sections completely closed off.

Yes, that's correct - those swing doors are designed to allow smoke extraction from any area of the train. The gap also has to be of a certain size to prevent people trapping their fingers.

I suspect the indecipherable pictogram may have been a First Class logo which had been subject to minor vandalism, as there have been one or two "etching" attacks on the partitions/windows in First, but I haven't looked closely at one of those doors for a week or two, so can't remember off the top of my head!

As for the doors, I am reliably informed that the opening speed actually could be faster, but had to be toned down a bit due to the fact that the doors would start to rebound and eventually damage themselves! Of course, this is all assuming that the door release is possible in the first place. In just 20 minutes or so at East Croydon yesterday, I saw at least a couple of trains with this problem, so it's not completely disappeared yet!

 

[Tomglomerate]

... Metro working, as you say, will be interesting to see. Stop marks etc might be fun are they are GPS locked out outside the core ? Some of those stations are tight for 8 cars.

No idea about GPS, but the doors in the rear car of an 8-car train seem to be locked out of use when stopping at Hendon, at least on the 2 times I remember stopping there going North, but on both occasions the rear of the train was comfortably alongside platform.

EDIT: As for seating, I'm yet to experience being wedged against the window by another person, but at least the trunking is flat enough to rest a foot on unlike the 377s, which can be a bit cosy in the 3+2 areas.

 

[tsr]

Just in - 1W28 stands at Hassocks on the Up Main with brake problems. 8 coach 700. 2 trains trapped behind for 20+mins so far. Oops!

 

[Deepgreen]

Yes, that's correct - those swing doors are designed to allow smoke extraction from any area of the train. The gap also has to be of a certain size to prevent people trapping their fingers.

I suspect the indecipherable pictogram may have been a First Class logo which had been subject to minor vandalism, as there have been one or two "etching" attacks on the partitions/windows in First, but I haven't looked closely at one of those doors for a week or two, so can't remember off the top of my head!

As for the doors, I am reliably informed that the opening speed actually could be faster, but had to be toned down a bit due to the fact that the doors would start to rebound and eventually damage themselves! Of course, this is all assuming that the door release is possible in the first place. In just 20 minutes or so at East Croydon yesterday, I saw at least a couple of trains with this problem, so it's not completely disappeared yet!

I am 99% sure it wasn't that, as it was a small round symbol, as I said, like a 'no smoking' sign, and with a diagonal red bar through it - i.e. 'no...something...is allowed'.

Yes, the doors at Redhill did rattle and bounce back a shade on opening - startlingly abrupt!

 

[tsr]

I am 99% sure it wasn't that, as it was a small round symbol, as I said, like a 'no smoking' sign, and with a diagonal red bar through it - i.e. 'no...something...is allowed'.

Oh, I think I know what you're referring to now - that may be the sticker somewhere near the top of the door which denotes that you shouldn't put your fingers there, as they will be trapped (the sides are fine, it's the top that can be a problem).

 

[Deepgreen]

Oh, I think I know what you're referring to now - that may be the sticker somewhere near the top of the door which denotes that you shouldn't put your fingers there, as they will be trapped (the sides are fine, it's the top that can be a problem).

Ah - I wonder how many people (especially the children it is presumably aimed at) will actually grasp its meaning. Meanwhile, I'll duly open the door by the handle rather than the top!

 

[SAPhil]

Ah - I wonder how many people (especially the children it is presumably aimed at) will actually grasp its meaning. Meanwhile, I'll duly open the door by the handle rather than the top!

I certainly couldn't work it out when I was in the first class section. I'll take another look at it now I know the answer

 

[Minstral25]

Best comment on local rail forum

"Siemens 700s. One can't even sit comfortably on the floor. I feel a camping-stool coming on..."

 

[westcoaster]

At long last, I happened to catch a 700 yesterday, with a 12 car unit on the 1638 Blackfriars to Three Bridges (is this now rostered for 700s?).

A few observations: first class was at the front, and was quite busy with strike day 'de-classifieds'. The seats are OK, and at least are a different design to those in standard. The internal door is an oddity, in that it is hinged (somewhat similar to the 319s') and opens in both directions (more reliable than a powered set, I imagine). It has huge gaps between it and the glass screens down each side. What is the purpose of these gaps? It also has the legend 'First class' on the first class side of the door, which is contrary to the accepted norm of labelling a door with its purpose on the outside, not the inside! There's also an indecipherable pictogram on the door, similar to a small 'no smoking' sign, but indicating what I couldn't tell.

The train loading display was a little optimistic judging by the cars I noticed, and the shades of green shown on the key didn't match the actual one being used at the time.

There was no opportunity to sample the acceleration capabilities as we were stuck at 0mph all the way to South Croydon as usual, and then sped up unremarkably to Redhill.

The ride was firm but OK. The biggest single feature of note to me was the very fast door opening speed - they really fly apart!

Apologise about the slow speed yesterday :roll: hope my driving was ok , but we are pathed behind stoppers all the way to Norwood junction on this service, and I think I only lost a couple of minutes. This service is now a 700.

 

[gazthomas]

I've now done Brighton to St. Albans with a 25 minute delay and the seats are hard doing after 2 hours. For people sitting next to the window leg room is lost due to heating/ventilation strips at floor level that eat into the available leg room. Also the bins seem a little invisible to most people

 

[samuelmorris]

The point being made about the seats is that for some people, myself sometimes included, a very firm (but still nonetheless cushioned) seat is actually helpful. Slouched soft seats like those on 319s can do more harm after prolonged use, even though they may feel more comfortable to start with. There is a great difference between having a very firm upright cushion and having no cushion at all. 387 and 700 seats do still feel odd to me, but I don't dislike them, other than that the seat pitch is too small on the 700s. If the seats were only slightly further apart I'd have very few issues with the units. I don't know if PIS reliability is quite where it should be yet, but it's a metro-spec unit first and foremost due to the excess loads that need to be carried. With five toilets, a quiet and smooth ride with capable air conditioning and a first class section that, unlike GTR's electostars is actually a considerable upgrade for those who require it. I think by and large the trains are pretty good. Their acceleration is impressive, the door operation and size of the door area is excellent for dwell times and standing capacity, and if you do want to pay the extra for a table and a wider seat, you can. I just wish that you didn't have to sit skewed to be able to fit in the airline seats. Seatback tables would be nice, but I gather they're going to end up retrofitted anyway.

Are the trains a downgrade from the 387s? In terms of comfort maybe slightly, they're certainly less cosy, I think the only real comfort downside is when you compare them to the 2+2 seating on the 377s, but that's academic if, by virtue of them being 2+2, all the seats are full anyway. Not perfect by any means but I think people do go a bit overboard with negative views sometimes. Nonetheless, if the seat cushions are totally intolerable for others, then that's obviously an issue, but from what I've read on here, almost every type of rolling stock has someone who loathes its seating - Mk4s, GW HSTs, IC70s, Chapmans, Ashbournes, 'Ironing boards', you name it. I do rather hope the seating on the 800s is marginally softer than the 387/700 though. Doing a 3+ hour stint on seats that firm might cause some bigger issues.

 

[asylumxl]

Apologise about the slow speed yesterday :roll: hope my driving was ok , but we are pathed behind stoppers all the way to Norwood junction on this service, and I think I only lost a couple of minutes. This service is now a 700.

Notice they said as always. We all know your driving me is amazing. The way you steer, it's like the trains on rails.

 

[ComUtoR]

Also the bins seem a little invisible to most people

You could put 100 bins per carriage and they would still be a little invisible to most people.

 

[asylumxl]

You could put 100 bins per carriage and they would still be a little invisible to most people.

Bit like the extensive luggage racks on the 700s...

 

[physics34]

The point being made about the seats is that for some people, myself sometimes included, a very firm (but still nonetheless cushioned) seat is actually helpful. Slouched soft seats like those on 319s can do more harm after prolonged use, even though they may feel more comfortable to start with. There is a great difference between having a very firm upright cushion and having no cushion at all. 387 and 700 seats do still feel odd to me, but I don't dislike them, other than that the seat pitch is too small on the 700s. If the seats were only slightly further apart I'd have very few issues with the units. I don't know if PIS reliability is quite where it should be yet, but it's a metro-spec unit first and foremost due to the excess loads that need to be carried. With five toilets, a quiet and smooth ride with capable air conditioning and a first class section that, unlike GTR's electostars is actually a considerable upgrade for those who require it. I think by and large the trains are pretty good. Their acceleration is impressive, the door operation and size of the door area is excellent for dwell times and standing capacity, and if you do want to pay the extra for a table and a wider seat, you can. I just wish that you didn't have to sit skewed to be able to fit in the airline seats. Seatback tables would be nice, but I gather they're going to end up retrofitted anyway.

Are the trains a downgrade from the 387s? In terms of comfort maybe slightly, they're certainly less cosy, I think the only real comfort downside is when you compare them to the 2+2 seating on the 377s, but that's academic if, by virtue of them being 2+2, all the seats are full anyway. Not perfect by any means but I think people do go a bit overboard with negative views sometimes. Nonetheless, if the seat cushions are totally intolerable for others, then that's obviously an issue, but from what I've read on here, almost every type of rolling stock has someone who loathes its seating - Mk4s, GW HSTs, IC70s, Chapmans, Ashbournes, 'Ironing boards', you name it. I do rather hope the seating on the 800s is marginally softer than the 387/700 though. Doing a 3+ hour stint on seats that firm might cause some bigger issues.

i find the 319 seats are just warn out and have lost their support, its cost cutting by TOCs not replacing them i guess...... the springs have had their day. Sure they were better when new.

 

[Deepgreen]

Tried my second 700 yesterday afternoon - 700109. The information display was, depressingly predictably, wrong, as it showed the next stop as being London Blackfriars all the way from there to Redhill. No other information (loading, toilets, etc.) was being displayed. 50% success rate so far!

 

[jon0844]

What's with the bullhorn icon that was shown on the left-hand screen for the whole of my journey? Is that meant to be shown when there's a manual PA announcement? I guess it had frozen?

 

[Stew998]

And the very leafy suburbs down the Catford Loop and into Kent with regard to wet rails and leaf mulch...hopefully they'll have better adhesion

Well I'm on 700111 on the 1842 from London Bridge to Brighton which was about ten minutes delayed inbound. The excuse was hard to discern over the PA (in a brand new station, in 2016 - really!) but I thought I heard something like slippery conditions....

 

[Bishopstone]

Well I'm on 700111 on the 1842 from London Bridge to Brighton which was about ten minutes delayed inbound. The excuse was hard to discern over the PA (in a brand new station, in 2016 - really!) but I thought I heard something like slippery conditions....

The London Bridge - Brighton Thameslink service has a very high cancellation rate, and when it does run it is usually 10-15 minutes late. It is off-topic for this thread, but I'm fascinated to see how the operator makes these diagrams reliable and punctual overnight, when they extend through to Cambridge in 2018.

 

[AM9]

The London Bridge - Brighton Thameslink service has a very high cancellation rate, and when it does run it is usually 10-15 minutes late. It is off-topic for this thread, but I'm fascinated to see how the operator makes these diagrams reliable and punctual overnight, when they extend through to Cambridge in 2018.

One big thing will be when the trains don't have to pick their way through Herne Hill and all the other conflicting junctions between Blackfriars and East Croydon. The other problem is the inherent unreliability of the BML route as a whole.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

What's with the bullhorn icon that was shown on the left-hand screen for the whole of my journey? Is that meant to be shown when there's a manual PA announcement? I guess it had frozen?

I think it simply indicates that the display is an announcement? Waste of pixels if it is...

 

[Bald Rick]

The London Bridge - Brighton Thameslink service has a very high cancellation rate, and when it does run it is usually 10-15 minutes late. It is off-topic for this thread, but I'm fascinated to see how the operator makes these diagrams reliable and punctual overnight, when they extend through to Cambridge in 2018.

A few more drivers would help.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What's with the bullhorn icon that was shown on the left-hand screen for the whole of my journey? Is that meant to be shown when there's a manual PA announcement? I guess it had frozen?

It's a special announcement icon. I was on a train with it on last week. It shouldn't be on there; the PIS freezes if there are certain manual interventions from the front end.

 

[urpert]

It's funny, I had a couple of early rides on 700s when there were only a few diagrams back in the summer and the PIS was working perfectly on both (including TfL information correctly displayed on the little screen).

 

[neilm]

A few more drivers would help.

Could this jeopardise the whole TL Programme?

I ask this not in a critical way but GTR have been banging since 2014 that they are getting more drivers but takes 18 months, well it is nearly 2017 and last night into this morning they are struggling to run the current Thameslink service. Let alone the 24tph that is due be in the near future.

 

[Class2ldn]

Lack of instructors isn't helping. Plenty of trainees but it's taking them a lot longer to get qualified.

 

[urpert]

...and I'm currently on a 700/1 with perfectly functioning PIS. Arrived nearly 20 down at East Croydon though.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

One big thing will be when the trains don't have to pick their way through Herne Hill and all the other conflicting junctions between Blackfriars and East Croydon. The other problem is the inherent unreliability of the BML route as a whole.

About the best , concise summary I have seen for years.

(going via Hernia Hill does eat up train crew and unit time - one looks forward to the fast dash from London Bridge - East Croydon in 2018)