Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[phoenixcronin]

I'm on 700112 now and the PIS hasn't been working since Blackfriars, all the way down to Brighton. No announcements no visual, completely dead

 

[MCR247]

How many of them times are probably where physically it looks fine but the TMS says "No chance mate!"?

What does "physically it looks fine" even mean? :roll:

 

[Class377/5]

This bank holiday will see the following 700 diagrams...

Saturday 27th August

501
5Y01 04+25 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
1W05 05.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W16 08.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W33 11.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W42 13.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W49 16.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W60 19.33 Brighton to Bedford
1W73 22.22 Bedford to Brighton
5W73 01+13 Brighton to Down Yard

504
5W12 05+30 Down Yard to Brighton
2W12 06.02 Brighton to Bedford
1W19 09.10 Bedford to Brighton
1W30 12.05 Brighton to Bedford
2W47 14.54 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W56 17.29 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W63 20.10 Bedford to Brighton
2W78 23.05 Brighton to Bedford
5Y78 02+14 Bedford to Jowett

Monday 29th August

501
5Y05 05+10 Jowett to Bedford
1W05 05.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W16 08.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W33 11.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
5W42 13+41 Three Bridges to Three Bridges Depot
5W42 13+55 Three Bridges Depot to Three Bridges
2W42 13.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W49 16.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W60 19.33 Brighton to Bedford
1W73 22.22 Bedford to Brighton
5W73 01+14 Brighton to Down Yard

502
5W16 07+22 Three Bridges Depot to Gatwick
2W16 07.38 Gatwick to Bedford
1W23 10.10 Bedford to Brighton
1W34 13.05 Brighton to Bedford
2W51 15.54 Bedford to Three Bridges
5W50 18+09 Three Bridges to Three Bridges Depot
5W50 18+25 Three Bridges Depot to Three Bridges
2W60 18.29 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W67 21.10 Bedford to Brighton
2W82 00.10 Brighton to Bedford
5Y82 03+13 Bedford to Jowett

503
5Y09 06+14 Jowett to Bedford
1W09 06.40 Bedford to Jowett
1W20 09.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W37 12.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
5W46 14+41 Three Bridges to Three Bridges Depot
5W46 14+55 Three Bridges Depot to Three Bridges
2W46 14.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W53 17.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W64 20.33 Brighton to Bedford
2W83 23.40 Bedford to Three Bridges
5W83 02+05 Three Bridges to Three Bridges Depot

504
5W12 05+30 Down Yard to Brighton
2W12 06.02 Brighton to Bedford
1W19 09.10 Bedford to Brighton
1W30 12.05 Brighton to Bedford
2W47 14.54 Bedford to Three Bridges
5W56 17+09 Three Bridges to Three Bridges Depot
5W56 17+25 Three Bridges Depot to Three Bridges
2W56 17.29 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W63 20.10 Bedford to Brighton
2W78 23.05 Brighton to Bedford
5Y78 01+59 Bedford to Jowett

And from Tuesday the following seven diagrams will operate weekdays...

TB501 SX
5Y91 02+14 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
2W91 02.40 Bedford to Brighton
1B00 05.47 Brighton to London Bridge
1B05 07.12 London Bridge to Brighton
1B10 08.27 Brighton to London Bridge
1B15 09.42 London Bridge to Brighton
1B22 11.02 Brighton to London Bridge
1B25 12.12 London Bridge to Brighton
5B25 13+29 Brighton to Down Yard
5B38 14+42 Down Yard to Brighton
1B38 15.02 Brighton to London Bridge
1B41 16.12 London Bridge to Brighton
1B48 17.32 Brighton to London Bridge
1B51 18.42 London Bridge to Brighton
5W51 20+06 Brighton to Three Bridges Depot

TB502
5W93 05+10 Three Bridges Depot to Three Bridges
2W94 05.20 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W13 07.34 Bedford to Brighton
1W24 10.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W41 13.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
5W92 15+41 Three Bridges to Three Bridges Depot
5W92 15+56 Three Bridges Depot to Three Bridges
1W92 15.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
2W61 18.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W66 20.43 Three Bridges to Bedford
5Y68 23+00 Bedford to Jowett Sidings

TB503
5Y11 06+32 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
1W11 06.58 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W22 09.11 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W29 11.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W40 14.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W57 17.20 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W62 19.43 Three Bridges to Bedford
5Y62 22+00 Bedford to Jowett Sidings

TB504
5W02 05+07 Brighton Down Yard to Brighton
1W02 05.30 Brighton to Bedford
2W21 08.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
5W30 10+41 Three Bridges to Three Bridges Depot
5W30 10+56 Three Bridges Depot to Three Bridges
2W30 10.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W37 13.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W96 16.35 Brighton to Bedford
5Y96 19+03 Bedford to Jowett Sidings

TB505
5Y01 03+47 Jowett Siding to Bedford
1W01 04.16 Bedford to Brighton
1W82 07.22 Brighton to Bedford
1W23 10.10 Bedford to Brighton
1W34 13.05 Brighton to Bedford
1W45 15.50 Bedford to Brighton
1W56 18.35 Brighton to Bedford
5Y69 21+14 Bedford to Jowett Sidings
5Y69 21+27 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
1W69 21.40 Bedford to Brighton
5W69 00+25 Brighton to Down Yard

TB506
5W06 05+10 Three Bridges Depot to Brighton
1W06 06.06 Brighton to Bedford
2W23 08.54 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W32 11.29 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W39 14.10 Bedford to Brighton
1W80 17.01 Brighton to Bedford
5Y80 19+33 Bedford to Jowett

TB507
5Y93 07+04 Jowett to Bedford
1W93 07.30 Bedford to Brighton
1W22 10.05 Brighton to Bedford
2W39 12.54 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W48 15.29 Three Bridges to Bedford
2W59 18.00 Bedford to Gatwick
2W64 20.18 Gatwick to Bedford
2W81 23.10 Bedford to Three Bridges
5W81 01+36 Three Bridges to Three Bridges Depot

Future weekend workings to follow

 

[Harbornite]

I was checking the good ol' Mainlinediesels.net for updates and came across this...

Another week, another new Thameslink Desiro City on transfer. On August 23, Europorte EURO 4000 4002 brought the brand new 700018 to Calais. It was delivered to the UK a day later.

http://mainlinediesels.net/index.php?nav=1000001&lang=en&id=9181&action=shownews


On August 16th, 700101 was moved...

On August 16, Europorte 4002 passed Morbecque with another Desiro City destined for service on the Thameslink route in the UK. The unit in question was 700 101, a twelve-car set.

http://www.mainlinediesels.net/index.php?nav=1000001&lang=en&id=9158&action=shownews#.V78sG5grLIU


And on August 9th, 700014 was moved.

 

[phoenixcronin]

I'm currently on 700112 on the 18:35 Brighton-Bedford being treated to a non-stop bash from Brighton to Gatwick due to late running. I must say even sitting over the bogies, the ride quality is quite good, albeit a bit lively, even when we were going 90mph. It jumps around a bit but not uncomfortable at all. PIS still not working though

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Thanks to Class377/5 for posting the Bank Holiday diagrams. Will the Saturday ones continue thereafter?

Bank holiday eh...? Definately a first so must get out! Haven't heard if my last pics are wanted yet in one of the railway rags... I'll have another shot Monday

 

[Class377/5]

Thanks to Class377/5 for posting the Bank Holiday diagrams. Will the Saturday ones continue thereafter?

Bank holiday eh...? Definately a first so must get out! Haven't heard if my last pics are wanted yet in one of the railway rags... I'll have another shot Monday

While I haven't seen it will, I'm sure it will as five 387/2 leave Thameslink this weekend (two are effectively gone already). The 387 diagrams were 26/25 on Saturday up to now, come Tuesday there is only 23x 387 on Thameslink so the 700s are going to take up the slack.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Rode this yesterday... not a big fan of them

 

[Islineclear3_1]

While I haven't seen it will, I'm sure it will as five 387/2 leave Thameslink this weekend (two are effectively gone already). The 387 diagrams were 26/25 on Saturday up to now, come Tuesday there is only 23x 387 on Thameslink so the 700s are going to take up the slack.

Good, that makes sense then. Looking forward to my first "proper" ride on the MML as well

 

[Kite159]

Front three coaches of 700110 were locked out of use on the 16:12 London Bridge to Brighton

 

[387star]

The first class on these is excellent and is easily the best on the brighton main line. I can see first class ticket holders opting for thameslink over southern and gatwick express. Very comfy seats and cosy ambience combine well with decent ride quality.

Only irritant being the manual door which kept swinging open and the noise from wind up front both presumably temporary glitches

I also see stations being repainted across gtr including thameslink stations in a smarter dark grey and white with the pink being left as a finishing touch rather than excess blue/pink

Perhaps soon the station signage will be replaced with bespoke thameslink signage grey with white writing and the pink dash could look quite smart... Some of the existing signage is somewhat faded in places

 

[causton]

Front three coaches of 700110 were locked out of use on the 16:12 London Bridge to Brighton

How were they locked out of use? Is there a divider that comes out?

 

[tsr]

How were they locked out of use? Is there a divider that comes out?

There are a couple of metal barriers which can be used to divide up the train into a couple of sections (though multiple carriages would have to be sealed off even if only one had a fault or needed deep cleaning, because there won't be one per gangway).

 

[MrB]

Front three coaches of 700110 were locked out of use on the 16:12 London Bridge to Brighton

Any reason why?

 

[Kite159]

Any reason why?

No idea, the metal divider thing was out, the lights were off and doors locked out of use. Caused confusion at East Croydon as passengers had to walk to coach 4 to board the train

I can't wait to have a good run on AC

 

[neilm]

While I haven't seen it will, I'm sure it will as five 387/2 leave Thameslink this weekend (two are effectively gone already). The 387 diagrams were 26/25 on Saturday up to now, come Tuesday there is only 23x 387 on Thameslink so the 700s are going to take up the slack.

Where are they going? GN?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Where are they going? GN?

I would think the 387/2's are going to GatEx duties replacing Class 442s going off lease...

 

[D365]

Where are they going? GN?

The 29 Class 387/1s are transferring to Great Northern, with the /2s returning to Gatwick Express.

 

[neilm]

I would think the 387/2's are going to GatEx duties replacing Class 442s going off lease...

Oh yes I forgot there are Red 387s still on TL.

 

[ComUtoR]

Any reason why they are limited to 100mph ?

 

[asylumxl]

Any reason why they are limited to 100mph ?

Do you mean on the MML? I believe it's because they are worried about interactions between the OHLE and pantographs at that speed. Current draw may also come in to it.

 

[ComUtoR]

Do you mean on the MML? I believe it's because they are worried about interactions between the OHLE and pantographs at that speed. Current draw may also come in to it.

It's traction specific. There's a big note in the cab stating they are limited to 100mph. I've never known a unit to be speed limited on specific lines but every unit I drive has a max permitted speed. The 700 I was in today had a 100mph restriction notice (in the usual place on every other unit) I confirmed with the Driver about the max speed and yes they are restricted to 100mph. Seems kinds crap; considering they are new and shiny.

He was about 80% power and still tapped 100 without effort. It feels like its got much much more in the tank so I wonder why such a restriction. Possibly the first time in a unit where I felt like 100 was kinda slow :/

Are other pantograph units restricted to a ton ?

[obligatory moan]
god those seats are awful
[/obligatory moan]

 

[Class377/5]

The 387s have been 100mph on MML for simple reason is the MML wires are designed for 100mph max so working beyond this would have required money spending.

Long term the restriction will be removed once they rewire the MML to deal with 125mph EMUs. But that's a way off yet.

Being new and shiney has nothing to do with max speed. The units much meet a certain standard for crash worthiness. No reason why the 700s should be been designed for over 100mph as it would barely be used. Due to better acceleration you already get a performance over other 100mph. Plus the fact higher speeds means a bigger cab so you start losing passenger space.

Boils down to its, the best soluation is to work on 100mph now like existing stock.

 

[asylumxl]

It will depend on the pantograph in question, the number of them and what OHLE they are interacting with.

I don't know the specifics of the 700s, but as far as I know all electric traction on the MML is restricted to 100mph, hence work is required to improve the existing OHLE south of Bedford to allow for 110-125mph electric traction.

 

[ComUtoR]

The 387s have been 100mph on MML for simple reason is the MML wires are designed for 100mph max so working beyond this would have required money spending.

Didn't ask about 387's so not sure if thats relevent.

Long term the restriction will be removed once they rewire the MML to deal with 125mph EMUs. But that's a way off yet.

Why does it need a rewire ? is there a technical restraint with the OHLE ?

Being new and shiney has nothing to do with max speed.

Why build anything less than the best ? I have a crappy EMT unit going past me and I'm in the new shiny train. Why settle for mediocrity ? Why not build a unit that can go as fast as possible ?

The units much meet a certain standard for crash worthiness. No reason why the 700s should be been designed for over 100mph as it would barely be used.

Other than every day ? Or are the 700's restricted to the up slow lines ? I use the fast lines in a 319 are the 700's going to be restricted to use the slow only ? seems wasteful to say the least that a unit cant go linespeed on the lines its available to use on a daily basis. The clock has 110

Due to better acceleration you already get a performance over other 100mph. Plus the fact higher speeds means a bigger cab so you start losing passenger space.

How big is the cab compared to EMT's units ? It was certainly more spacious than a 319; which is capable of 100mph

Boils down to its, the best soluation is to work on 100mph now like existing stock.

I never saw the Driver take full power. The unit really feels like it has so much more to give. It feels like the 100mph cap is artificial rather than what the unit is capable of.

Again, why are we settling for less than what we could achieve ? We were 10mph under linespeed
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It will depend on the pantograph in question, the number of them and what OHLE they are interacting with.

What pantograph do the 700's have do you know ? I only know of 2 so I'd happily be enlightened.

I don't know the specifics of the 700s, but as far as I know all electric traction on the MML is restricted to 100mph, hence work is required to improve the existing OHLE south of Bedford to allow for 110-125mph electric traction.

Ok, so if a 700 was not on the MML and was on a line that was 100mph + with upgraded OLHE. Could it go faster ? The restriction is on the unit, not on the line its on.

Is there anywhere with 100mph + OHLE ?
Technically what's the problem (please blind me with science) ?

Cheers in advance.

Com.

 

[asylumxl]

What pantograph do the 700's have do you know ? I only know of 2 so I'd happily be enlightened.

I believe they have Bracknell Willis HS pantographs, but haven't found any official documentation to verify that for sure.

The spacing between multiple pantographs will also play a role in the oscillations created in the OHLE. Tests are usually run to determine what effects a new configuration will have on a routes various OHLE.

Ok, so if a 700 was not on the MML and was on a line that was 100mph + with upgraded OLHE. Could it go faster ? The restriction is on the unit, not on the line its on.

Is there anywhere with 100mph + OHLE ?
Technically what's the problem (please blind me with science) ?

Cheers in advance.

Com.

Of course it could probably run faster, but there's a multitude of other reasons they could be restricted. Perhaps Siemens' inside-frame bogie design has only been rated for that speed in normal service. Perhaps the front does not meet crash-worthiness regulations for higher speeds. Perhaps at a higher speed rhey would have a larger kinematic envelope. There's so many factors that could mean a restriction of 100mph.

If you want science, I highly recommend reading this book on railway vehicle dynamics. It's well written with a wealth of information.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0849333210/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_awdl_x_fEoWxb0R3E28J

 

[ComUtoR]

I believe they have Bracknell Willis HS pantographs,

Capable of how fast....

but haven't found any official documentation to verify that for sure.

I'll check my traction manual.

Of course it could probably run faster, but there's a multitude of other reasons they could be restricted. Perhaps Siemens' inside-frame bogie design has only been rated for that speed in normal service. Perhaps the front does not meet crash-worthiness regulations for higher speeds. Perhaps at a higher speed rhey would have a larger kinematic envelope. There's so many factors that could mean a restriction of 100mph.

Cheers, thanks and, mucho gratis. It's a unit restriction for sure rather than restricted to the MML otherwise I'd guess that the unit would state Max XXXX and then we would get a notice to state the restrictions.

If you want science, I highly recommend reading this book on railway vehicle dynamics. It's well written with a wealth of information.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0849333210/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_awdl_x_fEoWxb0R3E28J

Cheers, I may well do. (I usually wait for Marky T's awesome explanations)

When I first arrived on this forum. AC was highly touted to be superior to DC and that its capable of higher speeds and higher acceleration. To suddenly see AC having a speed restriction of 100mph felt a little odd to say the least.

 

[RobShipway]

Capable of how fast....



I'll check my traction manual.



Cheers, thanks and, mucho gratis. It's a unit restriction for sure rather than restricted to the MML otherwise I'd guess that the unit would state Max XXXX and then we would get a notice to state the restrictions.



Cheers, I may well do. (I usually wait for Marky T's awesome explanations)

When I first arrived on this forum. AC was highly touted to be superior to DC and that its capable of higher speeds and higher acceleration. To suddenly see AC having a speed restriction of 100mph felt a little odd to say the least.

You need to also note that on some routes DC is limited to 70mph and there is only a few DC routes where 100mph can be done. The only routes I am aware of where 100mph can be done is the Brighton Mainline and sections of the route down to Bournemouth/Portsmouth other than that it is restricted to 90mph in a few places, but most is 70mph I believe.

 

[ComUtoR]

You need to also note that on some routes DC is limited to 70mph and there is only a few DC routes where 100mph can be done.

We also have a 100mph DC section. I have no problem where linespeeds are limited. I don't specifically have a problem with the unit but they will run on 110mph line on a daily basis. I'd like to know if that AC is limited.

 

[Bald Rick]

Until very recently, all AC was limited to 100mph under normal operation for trains operating with more than one pantograph up. The only place this has been relaxed is on the WCML for multiple operation of Class 350s at 110mph, and it took a lot of paperwork and scientific study to prove it was ok.

The issue is that 100mph is the limit above which the wire bounce caused by the passing of the first pantograph means the OLE is in the wrong place for the second pantograph. This causes contact issues and increases the risk of dewirement. I'm pretty sure we've had this explanation before on the forum.

I suppose the issue is why do the 387/s have a max speed of only 100mph, when their brethren can do 110. Assuming it is not something about the train spec, it can only be that as they were bought to operate entirely in 3rd rail land, and during their sojourn to TL would always be in multiple, there was no planned scenario where they could go over 100mph. So to avoid any potential confusion with drivers, the sticker says 100.

It feels like the opposite of the Austin Allegro my parents had as a child, which had a speedo marked up to 140mph.

Incidentally, the 387s could not make use of the short 100mph stretch on the Brighton Line, as that is for 319s only.