Thameslink 2018 Timetable Consultation Part 2

[philjo]

I see some of the text on that site has changed since I copied it yesterday!
December 2019 now says Cambridge to Maidstone- it said Ashford when I read it last night.

 

[USBT]

I see some of the text on that site has changed since I copied it yesterday!
December 2019 now says Cambridge to Maidstone- it said Ashford when I read it last night.

And on the "Improvements to Southern" page -

"On the Brighton line, there will be new direct routes through London and new travel opportunities up to Peterborough"

has become

"On the Brighton line, there will be new direct routes through London and new travel opportunities up to Horsham"

So that's the mention of Peterborough gone.

 

[JonathanH]

That's obviously a mistake - they aren't going to run trains from Brighton to Horsham. Peterborough was of course also a mistake.

Looks like someone told someone to change Brighton to Horsham and instead they changed Peterborough to Horsham.

Brighton to Cambridge follows in December.

 

[causton]

A very flashy and headache-inducing 'advert' promoting how good GTR is, being posted on the OIS* screens at stations, including Watford Junction where it is all but irrelevant.

*OIS = Olympic Information Screens - the Network Rail ones showing Tube status, vague doors close before departure time messages, and service disruption information that is sometimes relevant

 

[USBT]

Looks like someone told someone to change Brighton to Horsham and instead they changed Peterborough to Horsham.

That makes sense, as Horsham-Peterborough is an intended route. Odd that they're wording it like that though ("new direct routes through London and new travel opportunities up to Peterborough"). Why not just say "New direct service between Horsham and Peterborough (via Gatwick Airport)" just as they did for Luton-Rainham? I guess we'll just have to see what actually does get timetabled for May.

 

[gingerheid]

I'm not sure whether to get a terrible feeling or a bad feeling about this.

I get a dreadful feeling that we're never going to see a lot of these services. I also get a dreadful feeling that a lot of them could never have possibly worked anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

I see some of the text on that site has changed since I copied it yesterday!
December 2019 now says Cambridge to Maidstone- it said Ashford when I read it last night.

Cambridge to Maidstone was explained as extending from and to Ashford at the end and start up of service - presumably due to the stabling location. Some maps have included Ashford in a normal manner but I think it should be made much clearer that it is not the normal all day pattern...

 

[Envy123]

I'm not sure whether to get a terrible feeling or a bad feeling about this.

I get a dreadful feeling that we're never going to see a lot of these services. I also get a dreadful feeling that a lot of them could never have possibly worked anyway.

I feel that with the Welwyn to Sevenoaks service. It's certainly too good to be true - to have direct services to St Pancras from the ECML locals all day.

 

[The Box Photter]

I'm still waiting with trepidation to find out how the EMT-not-calling-at-Bedford-and-Luton-in-the-peak-hours is going to impact on passengers from Flitwick and stations south therof. We've been told that Thameslink will be running four southbound trains from Bedford in the morning calling only at Luton & St Albans and six northbound in the evening calling only at St Albans, Luton & Bedford. So far there has been no published timetable showing which trains these will be, or which trains us lesser mortals will still have available for us to use.

I'm not interested in the new journey opportunities from 2020, I need to know what's happening in four months. As usual, Thameslink/GTR are only interested in flashy websites saying how brilliant they're going to be.

 

[ijmad]

In the previous iterations of the Thameslink timetable I've seen the Catford Loop via Denmark Hill will be getting 4tph all day, as expected, which is better than the 2tph we get now, for much of the day, so that's good.

What I can't see in the Southeastern timetable drafts I've seen so far is equivalent peak time supplemental services that compare to the current situation - in the high peak between 0800 and 0900 on a week day, for example, Denmark Hill gets 7 trains towards Blackfriars, 5tph Thameslink through the Core and 2tph run by Southeastern to Blackfriars from Orpington.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/01/19/0800-0900?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

I've located one Southeastern service from Sole Street to Blackfriars that will stop at Denmark Hill between 0800 and 0900, but nothing above and beyond that on the diagrams. Am I missing a train or two somewhere, or are we really going to see a peak period reduction in services to Blackfriars by nearly 30%, in exchange for 4tph all day, come May?

 

[Hadders]

I'm still waiting with trepidation to find out how the EMT-not-calling-at-Bedford-and-Luton-in-the-peak-hours is going to impact on passengers from Flitwick and stations south therof. We've been told that Thameslink will be running four southbound trains from Bedford in the morning calling only at Luton & St Albans and six northbound in the evening calling only at St Albans, Luton & Bedford. So far there has been no published timetable showing which trains these will be, or which trains us lesser mortals will still have available for us to use.

I'm not interested in the new journey opportunities from 2020, I need to know what's happening in four months. As usual, Thameslink/GTR are only interested in flashy websites saying how brilliant they're going to be.

Well put. An appalling way to treat passengers. God help anyone wanting to travel from Bedford, Flitwick or Harlington to the north...

 

[USBT]

We've been told that Thameslink will be running four southbound trains from Bedford in the morning calling only at Luton & St Albans and six northbound in the evening calling only at St Albans, Luton & Bedford. So far there has been no published timetable showing which trains these will be, or which trains us lesser mortals will still have available for us to use.

I'm not interested in the new journey opportunities from 2020, I need to know what's happening in four months. As usual, Thameslink/GTR are only interested in flashy websites saying how brilliant they're going to be.

I have a copy of the Thameslink Mainline timetable from the consultation phase 2 (it was downloaded into my temp folder when I viewed it back in November). I can see the four morning and some evening peak trains you mention (mostly fast to/from Leagrave, not Luton).

Morning Peak - All stations to St. Albans (starting Bedford) get 0549, 0619, 0649, 0712 (starting Flitwick), 0719, 0742 (starts Flitwick), 0749, 0812. Note Flitwick gets some additional services that then run fast to Luton.

Evening Peak - All stations from St. Albans get (ex-St. Albans) 1612, 1624, 1644, 1654, 1714, then every 15 until 1844. Again, Flitwick gets some additional services fast from Luton.

But of course, that timetable has been retracted by GTR and was always officially "draft".

 

[The Box Photter]

I have a copy of the Thameslink Mainline timetable from the consultation phase 2 (it was downloaded into my temp folder when I viewed it back in November). I can see the four morning and some evening peak trains you mention (mostly fast to/from Leagrave, not Luton).

Morning Peak - All stations to St. Albans (starting Bedford) get 0549, 0619, 0649, 0712 (starting Flitwick), 0719, 0742 (starts Flitwick), 0749, 0812. Note Flitwick gets some additional services that then run fast to Luton.

Evening Peak - All stations from St. Albans get (ex-St. Albans) 1612, 1624, 1644, 1654, 1714, then every 15 until 1844. Again, Flitwick gets some additional services fast from Luton.

But of course, that timetable has been retracted by GTR and was always officially "draft".

Thanks for that. I did see that timetable, but it seems that they're having to recast from May after being thrown under the bus by EMT. Currently going south in the morning you'd be pretty unlucky not to get a seat from Flitwick, Harlington and Leagrave. With all the EMT refugees getting on at Bedford, I'm concerned that it'll be full and standing from Flitwick. Ugh!

In addition, when Thameslink goes tits up (as it frequently does) the alternative in the evening rush hour was to go to St Pancras and get on an EMT as far as Luton. That acted as a bit of a safety valve reducing the pressure on trains from the low level platforms. From May that won't be an option and the scrum at the gateline for the low level platforms will be even bigger.

Isn't progress great?

 

[Abpj17]

Thanks for that. I did see that timetable, but it seems that they're having to recast from May after being thrown under the bus by EMT. Currently going south in the morning you'd be pretty unlucky not to get a seat from Flitwick, Harlington and Leagrave. With all the EMT refugees getting on at Bedford, I'm concerned that it'll be full and standing from Flitwick. Ugh!

In addition, when Thameslink goes tits up (as it frequently does) the alternative in the evening rush hour was to go to St Pancras and get on an EMT as far as Luton. That acted as a bit of a safety valve reducing the pressure on trains from the low level platforms. From May that won't be an option and the scrum at the gateline for the low level platforms will be even bigger.

Isn't progress great?

Depressing indeed. I work around it by trying to travel after rush hour (Leagrave to City.) and will have to continue to do so. Given the level of cancellations/delays, full and standing is increasingly likely.

 

[JonathanH]

Nothing seen down our end yet (at least by me anyway) but then they forget we are part of Thameslink because we are south of the river.

GTR said they were not advertising the changes until end of February, unusual for anything on GTR to be early - any pictures?

Two Rail Plan 20/20 posters now up at the London end of platform 3 at Redhill.

 

[Minstral25]

Two Rail Plan 20/20 posters now up at the London end of platform 3 at Redhill.

Yes, saw them there myself yesterday. Shame they are the one place were passengers will hardly read a poster but they are visible from platform 2.

 

[387star]

Will the 15 points at tulse hill to herne hill become rarely used when tl go to London Bridge again

Only Sutton services mostly use the tulse to herne hill line on the 20?

 

[USBT]

And on the "Improvements to Southern" page -

"On the Brighton line, there will be new direct routes through London and new travel opportunities up to Peterborough"

has become

"On the Brighton line, there will be new direct routes through London and new travel opportunities up to Horsham"

So that's the mention of Peterborough gone.

That's obviously a mistake - they aren't going to run trains from Brighton to Horsham. Peterborough was of course also a mistake.

Looks like someone told someone to change Brighton to Horsham and instead they changed Peterborough to Horsham.

Brighton to Cambridge follows in December.

It's now changed again, to say

"From May 2018

• On the Brighton line, there will be new direct routes through London and new travel opportunities up to Cambridge"

Does that now mean Brighton-Cambridge now starts in May? That "new travel opportunities" fluff still bugs me though.

 

[DaveN]

It's now changed again, to say

"From May 2018

• On the Brighton line, there will be new direct routes through London and new travel opportunities up to Cambridge"

Does that now mean Brighton-Cambridge now starts in May?

Yes but only 1 tph to start. I don't think the new website is trying to tell us anything that hasn't already been in the press releases but they made a few mess ups. See https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia...led-for-may-2018-south-east-timetable-2285889

 

[ijmad]

I'm still concerned that we still seem to be losing services in the high peak from Denmark Hill & Peckham Rye to Blackfriars. Currently we get 7 trains stopping, which is 5x Thameslink and 2x Southeasterns, with 4x going up through the Core. This seems to be falling to 4x Thameslinks (which will be maintained all day, which admittedly is nice), and 1x Southeastern from Sole Street. I may be missing part of the timetable but the high peak diagrams in previous documents seemed pretty comprehensive.

Given the massively increased number of passengers at these stations, this seems like it will cause significant problems for Southwark residents. Many of these services are packed to the rafters already.

 

[Envy123]

I'm still concerned that we still seem to be losing services in the high peak from Denmark Hill & Peckham Rye to Blackfriars. Currently we get 7 trains stopping, which is 5x Thameslink and 2x Southeasterns, with 4x going up through the Core. This seems to be falling to 4x Thameslinks (which will be maintained all day, which admittedly is nice), and 1x Southeastern from Sole Street. I may be missing part of the timetable but the high peak diagrams in previous documents seemed pretty comprehensive.

Given the massively increased number of passengers at these stations, this seems like it will cause significant problems for Southwark residents. Many of these services are packed to the rafters already.

And yet the GN locals will have Thameslink services - why? Isn't 4tph good enough already?

 

[Failed Unit]

And yet the GN locals will have Thameslink services - why? Isn't 4tph good enough already?

GN locals will not get Thameslink services.

There is some debate about the following.
1. Peterborough- Thameslink will start 2tph
2. Cambridge- Brighton May start 1tph?

The following to wont start until 2019 - IF EVER!!!
Welwyn Garden City - Sevenoaks (peak only)
Cambridge - Maidstone which won’t be before 2020 if it will isn’t quietly forgotten about.

Locals will remain into Moorgate.

So the majority of great northern or getting all the pain with no gain. (Like it could be argued the Bedford line did when the core was shut) but the majority of great northern have no commitments to be if / when they will be connected to Thameslink.

 

[Envy123]

GN locals will not get Thameslink services.

There is some debate about the following.
1. Peterborough- Thameslink will start 2tph
2. Cambridge- Brighton May start 1tph?

The following to wont start until 2019 - IF EVER!!!
Welwyn Garden City - Sevenoaks (peak only)
Welwyn Garden City - Maidstone which won’t be before 2020 if it will isn’t quietly forgotten about.

Locals will remain into Moorgate.

So the majority of great northern or getting all the pain with no gain. (Like it could be argued the Bedford line did when the core was shut) but the majority of great northern have no commitments to be if / when they will be connected to Thameslink.

I assume that the Welwyn Garden City (WGC) to Sevenoaks or Maidstone would be like the occasional semi-fast service from Kings Cross (KGX) to WGC, stopping at Finsbury Park, New Southgate, Oakleigh Park, New Barnet, Potters Bar, Hatfield and WGC (but both ways, instead of one).

Maybe it's great for the peaks, but I seriously don't see the benefit of having it all day when the Moorgate locals are sufficient. There are no housing developments anywhere near the GN locals anyway...

 

[Failed Unit]

I assume that the Welwyn Garden City (WGC) to Sevenoaks or Maidstone would be like the occasional semi-fast service from Kings Cross (KGX) to WGC, stopping at Finsbury Park, New Southgate, Oakleigh Park, New Barnet, Potters Bar, Hatfield and WGC (but both ways, instead of one).

Maybe it's great for the peaks, but I seriously don't see the benefit of having it all day when the Moorgate locals are sufficient. There are no housing developments anywhere near the GN locals anyway...

Yes it is. Edited original post about the Maidstone is the ex Cambridge service.

I very much doubt we will ever see Thameslink core services from WGC. I doubt the infrastructure can take it. If that is a good thing or not is another question. Shame our peak service will be 33% slower with no benefits. (Less seats etc)

 

[Envy123]

Yes it is. Edited original post about the Maidstone is the ex Cambridge service.

I very much doubt we will ever see Thameslink core services from WGC. I doubt the infrastructure can take it. If that is a good thing or not is another question. Shame our peak service will be 33% slower with no benefits. (Less seats etc)

I anyway think the GN locals will have sufficient improvements - 4tph, Class 717s and links to the Elizabeth Line via Moorgate/Liverpool Street.

Wonder why the local services are getting better when the longer-distance ones are not? Considering what's going on with EMT at Bedford, I thought longer-distance passengers were more important than suburban ones?

 

[Failed Unit]

I anyway think the GN locals will have sufficient improvements - 4tph, Class 717s and links to the Elizabeth Line via Moorgate/Liverpool Street.

Wonder why the local services are getting better when the longer-distance ones are not? Considering what's going on with EMT at Bedford, I thought longer-distance passengers were more important than suburban ones?

The locals are not getting better in the peak same service but slower. Off peak you get 4tph rather than 3. The middle distance services are getting slower. Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield and potters bar are the big losers here. The other local stations stay the same.

Stevenage, Hitchin and Welwyn North are the biggest winners.

 

[Envy123]

The locals are not getting better in the peak same service but slower. Off peak you get 4tph rather than 3. The middle distance services are getting slower. Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield and potters bar are the big losers here. The other local stations stay the same.

Stevenage, Hitchin and Welwyn North are the biggest winners.

How are the local services getting slower? No more Finsbury Park expresses from New Southgate, both on the Moorgate and Kings Cross trains?

 

[Failed Unit]

How are the local services getting slower? No more Finsbury Park expresses from New Southgate, both on the Moorgate and Kings Cross trains?

Look at the peak timetables most journeys are slower. Especially the ones that used to be fast between WGC and Finsbury Park. Slow lines very congested. Expect lots of skip stopping to prevent a total collapse of the timetable.

 

[twicezero]

hi, new person here. Are the new GN timetables out? I've been looking for them but I've no luck

 

[Failed Unit]

hi, new person here. Are the new GN timetables out? I've been looking for them but I've no luck

Not yet. Some drafts were out last year for consulting. They are all removed from websites. I expect you to be able to start searching for the about the 3rd week in Feb as we get towards the 12 weeks before start date.