TFW puchase Pullman rail

[Phil from Mon]

TFW have announced today (https://news.tfw.wales/news/transport-for-wales-signs-deal-to-purchase-pullman-rail-limited) that they have purchased Pullman Rail, who of course operate out of Canton. The idea seems to be to provide greater capacity for supporting both the Metro and other TFW services.

Transport for Wales (TfW) has signed a deal with Colas Rail UK to purchase Pullman Rail Limited.
TfW, the not-for-profit organisation established by Welsh Government to drive forward its integrated transport network vision has been conducting a national review of its depots and stabling options (where trains are kept while not in service). This includes its largest depot in Cardiff, where the vast majority of TfW’s trains are serviced, cleaned and maintained.
Pullman, providers of specialist engineering services for rail vehicles in the UK, also operate from this depot in Canton.
The acquisition will enable both TfW and Pullman to build on an already-close working partnership, with further investment delivering even better results for TfW and Pullman’s customers and clients.
Bolstered by the purchase of Pullman, Canton depot will have the required capacity and resilience to support the introduction of TfWs flagship Metro scheme alongside new rolling stock for the Wales and Borders network.
TfW CEO James Price says: "High performing and enterprising, Pullman reflect many of TfW’s own values. Pullman has been operating in the UK for more than 25 years, delivering high quality products and services. This technical expertise, quality workmanship and innovation are integral to the UK rail industry, ensuring legacy fleet can be maintained.
"TfW are proud to be aligned with this strong heritage and of the opportunities this partnership will present for the growth of both organisations in the future, in improving rail services for our passengers and securing jobs locally in Wales."
Pullman will continue to operate as a stand-alone business as Pullman Rail Ltd. Activity will remain business as usual with existing services continuing to be delivered under the Pullman brand.

 

[Dai Corner]

You beat me to it Phil from Mon!

Following the nationalisation of the operations and purchase of rolling stock I think it's clear what the Welsh Government's view on who should own the railways is.

 

[Cardiff123]

You beat me to it Phil from Mon!

Following the nationalisation of the operations and purchase of rolling stock I think it's clear what the Welsh Government's view on who should own the railways is.

A nationalised, unified and cheaper to run public system, with passenger needs as it's focus, versus a fragmented, expensive and privatised system. I know which one I prefer.

 

[Dai Corner]

A nationalised, unified and cheaper to run public system, with passenger needs as it's focus, versus a fragmented, expensive and privatised system. I know which one I prefer.

I wonder if they'll try to buy out the leases for all that new stock they're going to get?

 

[thedbdiboy]

A nationalised, unified and cheaper to run public system, with passenger needs as it's focus, versus a fragmented, expensive and privatised system. I know which one I prefer.

You're conflating two issues there. Unified is better than fragmented, that's common sense. Nationalised = cheaper is as ideological as saying privatised = more efficient; it can be true or the opposite can be true.

In practice the railways have always mixed private and public input - for example British Rail procured plenty of equipment from private suppliers. And as for passenger focus - any successful business concentrates on the needs of its customers. It's one of the reasons giants like Amazon and Apple are so annoyingly successful. Companies and organisations can be well run or badly run. The main thing is that TfW has a unity of purpose now, let's hope they can deliver.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A nationalised, unified and cheaper to run public system, with passenger needs as it's focus, versus a fragmented, expensive and privatised system. I know which one I prefer.

Both TfW Rail, and Pullman Rail, are commercial companies.
They may be Welsh-government owned, but that's not the same degree of nationalisation as BR.
We'll see what degree of "unification" we get when GBR starts up.
I suspect there will very likely still be separate "GWR", "Avanti" and "XC" operators in Wales.
Most TfW rolling stock is still leased from private banks/funders.

Have a look north of the border to see how a government-owned transport setup has failed to deliver for its customers (CalMac and its new ferries).

 

[option]

I suspect this is about having a more responsive & always local fix/maintenance operation for the rolling stock.


Interestingly, Colas are owned by Bouygues, who also own 3% of Alstom.

 

[43096]

I wonder if they'll try to buy out the leases for all that new stock they're going to get?

They already own the 230s and the Mark 4s.

 

[tomuk]

I wonder how much this has cost. No mention of it in the press release. Pullman Rail hardly makes any money so WG aren't going to get any income from it. The main value of the company appears to be the freehold/long leasehold property it owns, Canton TMD I presume.

 

[Dai Corner]

They already own the 230s and the Mark 4s.

Well, yes. I was wondering about the new stock as opposed to the second hand.

 

[Caaardiff]

I wonder how much this has cost. No mention of it in the press release. Pullman Rail hardly makes any money so WG aren't going to get any income from it. The main value of the company appears to be the freehold/long leasehold property it owns, Canton TMD I presume.

It provides more space for Canton, in the short term while works are happening to the current depot to make it ready for the new stock and in the long term for when the stock actually arrives if any further expansion is needed.
It also mean less need to rely on additional new Depots across the network or outstanding with no maintenance and fuelling facilities.

 

[tomuk]

It provides more space for Canton, in the short term while works are happening to the current depot to make it ready for the new stock and in the long term for when the stock actually arrives if any further expansion is needed.
It also mean less need to rely on additional new Depots across the network or outstanding with no maintenance and fuelling facilities.

The press release says

Activity will remain business as usual with existing services continuing to be delivered under the Pullman brand

So how will space be freed up? Also surely it would be better to expand/extend facilities at the further reaches of the network less need to get stock back to Canton for repairs.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Whilst it is sensible for TfW to ensure ample capability to deal with their planned new/larger and diverse passenger fleets it will be interesting to see if the traditional 'freight' element of Pullman's work continues.

 

[Caaardiff]

The press release says



So how will space be freed up? Also surely it would be better to expand/extend facilities at the further reaches of the network less need to get stock back to Canton for repairs.

Pullman has spare storage/stabling capacity. Canton doesn't.
Also pullman probably isn't at maximum capacity for maintenance work too.

 

[tomuk]

Pullman has spare storage/stabling capacity. Canton doesn't.
Also pullman probably isn't at maximum capacity for maintenance work too.

So why not rent the space or buy the services from Pullman. Why do you need to buy it?

 

[Caaardiff]

So why not rent the space or buy the services from Pullman. Why do you need to buy it?

Why not buy it? It obviously works for whatever plans there are.

 

[tomuk]

Why not buy it? It obviously works for whatever plans there are.

As we don't know how much has been paid or what the plans are how are we able to make any judgement?
The need for some of the extra space will only be temporary during the transition from the old to the new fleet.
Why didn't they buy Landore in Swansea? Or build a depot in North Wales?

 

[wobman]

As we don't know how much has been paid or what the plans are how are we able to make any judgement?
The need for some of the extra space will only be temporary during the transition from the old to the new fleet.
Why didn't they buy Landore in Swansea? Or build a depot in North Wales?

Landore is going to be used for the MK4s on the Swansea to Manchester services and probably save units having heavy maintenance at Arriva traincare depot Crewe.
Building a depot in N Wales wouldn't be cheap, the Alstom depot Chester will soon be CAF but TFW won't be able to stable most of the 197's there unless it's expanded. I know Llandudno junction is planned to have around 7 197's stabled overnight and units kept in Holyhead depot to take the pressure off Chester.

The Pullman purchase is probably a quick an easy option, TFW need the space and it's useful to have a facility such as Pullman's.
Look how busy Arriva LNWR Crewe is, it's a shame TFW don't have such a facility planned in N Wales somewhere like Mold junction.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2021 ==

I wonder if they'll try to buy out the leases for all that new stock they're going to get?

Apparently TFW were advised to follow the usual method of leasing the new CAF and Stadler units, they looked at owning the fleets but they were told it wasn't efficient.

 

[DelW]

So why not rent the space or buy the services from Pullman. Why do you need to buy it?

One reason might be that TfW can now vary the scope of the services that Pullman provides without having to negotiate a variation to the contract, or (potentially) having to go through a retendering process with a minimum of two other bidders, to comply with competition rules?

 

[Caaardiff]

Landore is going to be used for the MK4s on the Swansea to Manchester services and probably save units having heavy maintenance at Arriva traincare depot Crewe.
Building a depot in N Wales wouldn't be cheap, the Alstom depot Chester will soon be CAF but TFW won't be able to stable most of the 197's there unless it's expanded. I know Llandudno junction is planned to have around 7 197's stabled overnight and units kept in Holyhead depot to take the pressure off Chester.

The Pullman purchase is probably a quick an easy option, TFW need the space and it's useful to have a facility such as Pullman's.
Look how busy Arriva LNWR Crewe is, it's a shame TFW don't have such a facility planned in N Wales somewhere like Mold junction.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2021 ==


Apparently TFW were advised to follow the usual method of leasing the new CAF and Stadler units, they looked at owning the fleets but they were told it wasn't efficient.

There's talk of Mk4s being stabled at Canton/Pullman. Whether that's in addition to or to replace Landore is unclear.

Can 7 units be stabled at Llandudno Jn?? The bay only fits 4 cars. Can the through platforms be used overnight?
Alstoms Depot may be limited in size but don't forget many units are also stored in the station & sidings.

As we don't know how much has been paid or what the plans are how are we able to make any judgement?
The need for some of the extra space will only be temporary during the transition from the old to the new fleet.
Why didn't they buy Landore in Swansea? Or build a depot in North Wales?

Surely having an extended Depot with one section that is already operational but not at full capacity is better than opening a new Depot with build costs and higher running costs with it being a separate entity.

 

[wobman]

There's talk of Mk4s being stabled at Canton/Pullman. Whether that's in addition to or to replace Landore is unclear.

Can 7 units be stabled at Llandudno Jn?? The bay only fits 4 cars. Can the through platforms be used overnight?
Alstoms Depot may be limited in size but don't forget many units are also stored in the station & sidings.


Surely having an extended Depot with one section that is already operational but not at full capacity is better than opening a new Depot with build costs and higher running costs with it being a separate entity.

Gbrf are opening up the ludo jn sidings and TFW plan on using them aswell for 197 unit storage, at present Alstom Chester holds 20 units with the TFW 197 plan there will be 56 units that need storing.
The plan is Mach for the 21 ertms units and the remainder working out of Chester, so plenty will need to be in stations and sidings throughout the network.

 

[tiptoptaff]

There is huge capacity for stabling on the Pullmans side of Canton. As well as additional fuelling points that are already available to use.

You'll probably see a lot of the stabled Colas stuff disappear, which in itself will create space. Then, hopefully, needing the space will encourage them to clear the backlog of wagons waiting for works, which also creates space.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2021 ==

Let's just hope this purchase is successful, unlike the basket case that is the WG owned Cardiff Airport

 

[pdeaves]

So why not rent the space or buy the services from Pullman. Why do you need to buy it?

Maybe the situation was something like:

"Can we stable some stuff in your sidings?"
"No"

(later)

"Can we buy your company?"
"What's your opening offer?"

 

[tomuk]

Maybe the situation was something like:

"Can we stable some stuff in your sidings?"
"No"

(later)

"Can we buy your company?"
"What's your opening offer?"

Yes but the question is how large was the offer. Bouygues/Colas aren't a charity.

 

[Dai Corner]

Yes but the question is how large was the offer. Bouygues/Colas aren't a charity.

That may never be disclosed, but maybe it was Colas who approached TfW after noting that they seemed to be in a spending mood (and remembering how generous WG was to the previous owners of Cardiff Airport?)?