TfW potential future rolling stock procurements

[Rail Quest]

Part of the new / future Class 777 trials recently awarded relate to Wrexham-Bidston-(Liverpool Loop). I believe part of one of the workstreams is understanding how the crewing of these works. Could well see Merseyrail stock operating TfW services - but in any event, it is hoped that this solution will allow the older rolling stock to be removed and comparatively soon. Extension to Liverpool is a bonus.

One 777 will be fitted with toilets during the trial too.

The other significant element here for TfW is Chester - if the DC electrification can be removed south of Hooton, this gives greater platform flexibility at Chester (not just limited to Platform 7). Will be interesting to see whether the Merseyrail services (on battery) can go beyond Chester (Warrington/Crewe?)

Reason I mention here is that it obviously could impact on the future TfW fleet - and free up/release existing units if successful.

Brilliant. We can use the released Class 230s on Manchester to Cardiff as the new intercity replacement then

 

[Bletchleyite]

The other significant element here for TfW is Chester - if the DC electrification can be removed south of Hooton, this gives greater platform flexibility at Chester (not just limited to Platform 7). Will be interesting to see whether the Merseyrail services (on battery) can go beyond Chester (Warrington/Crewe?)

Merseyrail need to be very careful not to end up importing delays, though, particularly from Castlefield. Wrexham should be fine though, as should Helsby bay (I assume in conjunction with major housing development at Ince/Elton?)

 

[tutacre]

Brilliant. We can use the released Class 230s on Manchester to Cardiff as the new intercity replacement then

I do wonder whether those 230s could end up on something like the Heart of Wales line - potentially solves the 150/153 issue (for a little while longer, at least).
They'd need a further refurbishment regardless so the spec could be enhanced.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Tuesday at 11:30 ==

Merseyrail need to be very careful not to end up importing delays, though, particularly from Castlefield. Wrexham should be fine though, as should Helsby bay (I assume in conjunction with major housing development at Ince/Elton?)

Helsby isn't a bay as such, there are 2 x platforms on the Ellesmere Port branch which are lightly used, one of which is bi-directional, but you would probably spin the unit there, if not sending it further to somewhere like Liverpool South Parkway via Frodsham.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

I reckon a batch of 10-15 5 car 80X bi/Tri mode units, with the same amenities as the MK4 offers, either the same or extra comfort than the 197 standard class, than an upgraded version of the “Standard Plus” found on the 197s for First Class. To be maintained by Arriva in Crewe, and then these could work the Manchester to Cardiff/Swansea and Holyhead services and the Holyhead to Cardiff services, in turn allowing more 197s to be released resulting in a capacity uplift.

 

[lowe1409]

I reckon a batch of 10-15 5 car 80X bi/Tri mode units, with the same amenities as the MK4 offers, either the same or extra comfort than the 197 standard class, than an upgraded version of the “Standard Plus” found on the 197s for First Class. To be maintained by Arriva in Crewe, and then these could work the Manchester to Cardiff/Swansea and Holyhead services and the Holyhead to Cardiff services, in turn allowing more 197s to be released resulting in a capacity uplift.

No, TFW don't need 80x. Firstly, 110mph would be generous for these units, 140mph is overkill, plus you loose a third of each end coach. What they need is a fast regional train. (How much Sp/MU speeds are there on the marches? Could this be a good route to have 185s cascaded too to live out their end lives?)

If they was to order new stock, I reckon they should stick with CAF to mitigate some micro fleet issues. A 110mph Civity with 897/397 type layout could work well for them.

 

[Harpo]

What they need is a fast regional train.

However, TfW’s business plan is an InterCity quality Cardiff to Manchester service.

 

[lowe1409]

However, TfW’s business plan is an InterCity quality Cardiff to Manchester service.

Greater Anglia run 745s intercity. They ain't 125mph stock. SWR also run intercity trains less than 125mph. TPE do. The key wording you said was intercity quality. Not 'high speed intercity'. They need a train that can have comforts such as hot food catering and first class. Not pointlessly fast trains which are never gonna hit their top speeds, and loose 2/3 of a carriage for no reason. Something such as the new trains TPE ordered, besides the range, is close to what they want. 5 coaches, propper first class with a galley. 110mph top speed, level boarding. It's a fast regional train with an intercity feel. It's all about the interior, not the specs.

 

[Topological]

Greater Anglia run 745s intercity. They ain't 125mph stock. SWR also run intercity trains less than 125mph. TPE do. The key wording you said was intercity quality. Not 'high speed intercity'. They need a train that can have comforts such as hot food catering and first class. Not pointlessly fast trains which are never gonna hit their top speeds, and loose 2/3 of a carriage for no reason. Something such as the new trains TPE ordered, besides the range, is close to what they want. 5 coaches, propper first class with a galley. 110mph top speed, level boarding. It's a fast regional train with an intercity feel. It's all about the interior, not the specs.

Indeed

It would be good to see the business plan, because I do not see any attempt to actually run an intercity service.

They use trains that used to be used for intercity services, but timetable them as slowly as the services that make up to 5 more stops.

IF we were talking about a Cardiff-Newport-Hereford-Shrewsbury-Crewe-Wilmslow-Stockport-Manchester then that might be an attempt to run an intercity service. Avanti serve Wilmslow so I left it in. However, that would then need a relief train on the 197 stopping pattern to prevent many of the smaller towns on the route losing their hourly service to Manchester.

Realistically, TfW operate a joined up set of regional services on which a limited number make the full journey. Stock should be optimised for acceleration and shorter dwells to get the best journey times out of the service pattern. There are far better candidates for relief services than Manchester to Cardiff.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Greater Anglia run 745s intercity. They ain't 125mph stock. SWR also run intercity trains less than 125mph. TPE do. The key wording you said was intercity quality. Not 'high speed intercity'. They need a train that can have comforts such as hot food catering and first class. Not pointlessly fast trains which are never gonna hit their top speeds, and loose 2/3 of a carriage for no reason. Something such as the new trains TPE ordered, besides the range, is close to what they want. 5 coaches, propper first class with a galley. 110mph top speed, level boarding. It's a fast regional train with an intercity feel. It's all about the interior, not the specs.

Microwavable bacon rolls, sure. The current level of Pullman dining (on the very rare occasion the chef bothers to show up) is absolutely not necessary in future fleets, nice as it might be.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

No, TFW don't need 80x. Firstly, 110mph would be generous for these units, 140mph is overkill, plus you loose a third of each end coach. What they need is a fast regional train. (How much Sp/MU speeds are there on the marches? Could this be a good route to have 185s cascaded too to live out their end lives?)

If they was to order new stock, I reckon they should stick with CAF to mitigate some micro fleet issues. A 110mph Civity with 897/397 type layout could work well for them.

If “fast regional trains” were needed, the 67s and MK4 coaches wouldn’t even be here, and instead would be 197s. But yes a 5 car 897 variant would be good for TfW. Than the 197s could be released and Chester Depot would need expanding to handle the longer trains

 

[Topological]

If “fast regional trains” were needed, the 67s and MK4 coaches wouldn’t even be here, and instead would be 197s. But yes a 5 car 897 variant would be good for TfW. Than the 197s could be released and Chester Depot would need expanding to handle the longer trains

My understanding is that the 67s and MK4 came as a solution to a shortage of trains even with the 197 order.

IF there had been a genuine desire for a different product then we would have seen a proper set of stock rather than just enough to fill the gaps.

Someone will be able to explain the actual changes, but my recollection is that it relates to the loss of the 170s that were originally going to operate in West Wales and on the Heart of Wales.

 

[Harpo]

If “fast regional trains” were needed, the 67s and MK4 coaches wouldn’t even be here, and instead would be 197s.

Exactly. Having an Intercity standard environment, first class coach and a high quality catering provision have been very conscious business-based decisions, not an accident or something ‘unnecessary’.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly. Having an Intercity standard environment, first class coach and a high quality catering provision have been very conscious business-based decisions, not an accident or something ‘unnecessary’.

Though there's no reason upspecced 5 car 197s couldn't have been ordered, or even a 397 like DMU. Though the TPE procurement gives you an idea of the future of that sort of stock, as low floor means the end of end doors - they are not possible with level boarding. Single leaf doors at thirds, possibly only one per vehicle side, are the likely future of this sort of train, a bit like the Greater Anglia Stadlers.

 

[Jez]

My understanding is that the 67s and MK4 came as a solution to a shortage of trains even with the 197 order.

IF there had been a genuine desire for a different product then we would have seen a proper set of stock rather than just enough to fill the gaps.

Someone will be able to explain the actual changes, but my recollection is that it relates to the loss of the 170s that were originally going to operate in West Wales and on the Heart of Wales.

Thats correct. Originally 170s were going to stay and do West Wales and Heart of Wales. Then it was decided to keep the 153s for the Heart of Wales and 197s would operate the West Wales routes meaning less on the Manchester-South Wales.

Personally i find it sends an inconsistent message to customers. One hour we get an intercity style train with buffet coach and first class the other hour a DMU with doors in the middle of the carriages no first class or buffet coach and if your lucky a trolley service. Personally i prefer the 197s over the MK4's but i can see why your average customer would be confused.

 

[Envoy]

Has 170’s stayed as per the original plan, then I presume that west Wales would have lost a lot of direct services running east of Swansea. It is unfortunate that old sprinters remain on the Heart of Wales - one of the reasons why I have never traveled that line - the other being that they don't operate directly to/from the east via the Swansea district Line but instead go via a lengthy journey to/from Llanelli where they reverse.

So, I can see why TFW opted for the present solution which includes using the Mk 4’s for every other train on the Manchester route.

I think an order should be placed for 5 car 110 mph Inter City bi-mode trains with central door on each coach for level boarding and these should run Swansea to Manchester plus the odd north Wales to Cardiff service.

 

[Jez]

Has 170’s stayed as per the original plan, then I presume that west Wales would have lost a lot of direct services running east of Swansea.

Possibly or Swanline could have been 170s as well as the sets would have needed to get back to Canton I assume.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Thats correct. Originally 170s were going to stay and do West Wales and Heart of Wales. Then it was decided to keep the 153s for the Heart of Wales and 197s would operate the West Wales routes meaning less on the Manchester-South Wales.

Personally i find it sends an inconsistent message to customers. One hour we get an intercity style train with buffet coach and first class the other hour a DMU with doors in the middle of the carriages no first class or buffet coach and if your lucky a trolley service. Personally i prefer the 197s over the MK4's but i can see why your average customer would be confused.

Well. You have triggered some thoughts.

If we go back to the plans of the era you refer to then any train will do because trains will not have to interwork West-East of Swansea and Heart of Wales is standalone already. Could acquire second hand units (from where ?) or brand new very rural spec units. Obvious depot would be Landore in Swansea of course.

Then again the more ambitious approach would be all Swansea/Cardiff to Manchester and Holyhead services being run by a new fleet of units to some level of long distance intercity spec.

I have arrived at an answer for a depot - Landore. Landore either for new very rural units running all of West of Swansea and up the Heart of Wales line, 197s cascaded from Cardiff/Swansea to Manchester/Holyhead OR for the actual posh trains TfW might aspire to for their longer distance intercity-ish services.

For Cardiff/Swansea to Manchester/Holyhead I would not terminate/split any services at Cardiff. But if they never went West of Swansea that might mean 5car units are ideal.

Just brainstorming.

 

[Topological]

I think that would be a good solution

197s can do Cardiff to West Wales as part of Swanline.

Currently, the 197s are supposed to be 5-car between Swansea and Manchester, and there is definitely demand for more capacity on the route.

Reducing terminating trains in Cardiff would be a big help.

None of this will happen, even with the "cheap" option of more 197s.

 

[SWML9102]

Yes, the original plan was 5 car 197s providing an hourly service between Manchester and Swansea, where the two units would split and one continue further west. That plan ended when it was decided to remove the 170s to EMR, leaving 197s to fill duties originally intended for 197s. The shortfall was made up by TfW buying the Mk4 sets cheap and using for every other Cardiff - Manchester.

An enhanced catering offering was in the original plan (using 197s, hence the catering cupboards). The present offering has grown from that, though I would be extremely surprised if the travelling chef is profitable.

The Mk4s do need replacing in the medium term. Whilst I love them they certainly are showing their age. I think a regional express unit is what's really needed, and reintroducing cross-Cardiff running. Ideally encouraging passengers needing to change trains to do so at Newport or Swansea, not Cardiff where possible. I would say 197s fit the bill for that, fast acceleration, quick to load/unload. Not sure that another new type of stock is needed (would be nice though).

I think TfW priority for new stock will be more trams (starting with Coryton, Penarth, Caerphilly), pushing 756s onto other duties and thus freeing up some 197s. Obvious problem with that is lack of electrification, and 756 limited fuel range, but I can see them being put onto Bristol services / new Burns services in the future.