TfW Manchester Crewing

[howstaff]

I overheard a conversation that got me thinking, especially given how exacting railway rotas can be.

How is the Transport for Wales Cardiff to Manchester service crewed?

I presume, a driver & conductor take the set from Canton and on to Manchester, have a break then comes back? Perhaps another depot does a round trip from Crewe to allow a break, or takes the trip entirely and the crew works the next trip an hour later? Some of the Mark 4 sets start from Crewe I assume so presumably there is a crew depot & canteen around there.

Likewise, the first class host(?) was talking to customers saying they would be staying on and returning 15 minutes later on the same train set. I believe they joined at Central with the chef joining at Newport. I presume there being two people serving in First allows for them to alternate breaks on the move in the quiet parts of the journey, potentially around trolly service needs? Likewise with the chef, I think food is only possible between Newport and Crewe, so allows for time at either end (depending on if it's a "north based" or "south based" chef).

All very fascinating, but all very complex! It's fairly easy to imagine with the more local services, as they go in and out of the busier stations/hubs often and so feasibly will always be other crew around to take over and somewhere to take a break. With the longer journeys like this, a round trip is almost a working day, so hard to get your head around!

 

[Lewisham2221]

I overheard a conversation that got me thinking, especially given how exacting railway rotas can be.

How is the Transport for Wales Cardiff to Manchester service crewed?

I presume, a driver & conductor take the set from Canton and on to Manchester, have a break then comes back? Perhaps another depot does a round trip from Crewe to allow a break, or takes the trip entirely and the crew works the next trip an hour later? Some of the Mark 4 sets start from Crewe I assume so presumably there is a crew depot & canteen around there.

Likewise, the first class host(?) was talking to customers saying they would be staying on and returning 15 minutes later on the same train set. I believe they joined at Central with the chef joining at Newport. I presume there being two people serving in First allows for them to alternate breaks on the move in the quiet parts of the journey, potentially around trolly service needs? Likewise with the chef, I think food is only possible between Newport and Crewe, so allows for time at either end (depending on if it's a "north based" or "south based" chef).

All very fascinating, but all very complex! It's fairly easy to imagine with the more local services, as they go in and out of the busier stations/hubs often and so feasibly will always be other crew around to take over and somewhere to take a break. With the longer journeys like this, a round trip is almost a working day, so hard to get your head around!

Manchester - Crewe is always a Crewe guard, with a Crewe or Shrewsbury (197 services only) driver.

Crewe - Cardiff can be a Crewe, Shrewsbury or Cardiff guard. South of Shrewsbury it's only a Crewe or Cardiff driver, Shrewsbury drivers don't sign to Cardiff.

Catering staff is more varied, Mk4 hosts are generally based at Newport or Manchester, trolley hosts can be Shrewsbury, Newport or Carmarthen based.

Crew changes generally happen at Crewe, Shrewsbury or Cardiff - sometimes Newport or Hereford (mainly disruption).

As a result, many (almost all?) services have some sort of crew swap mid-service; the only pairing that could work a complete Manchester Piccadilly- Cardiff Central service, end to end, would be a Crewe driver and a Crewe guard

 

[howstaff]

Fascinating - it's mind-blowingly complex! Thank you for your response.

Naturally I didn't see the driver at start and end, or the guard beyond the couple of times they came through so likely swapped mid-route. I may be misremembering the host boarding at Cardiff, but I suspect their comment I overheard about working the trip back may mean they were then going to then change over mid-route on the way back.

Cannot begin to imagine what comes into it for the even longer trips!

 

[6Gman]

Fascinating - it's mind-blowingly complex! Thank you for your response.

Naturally I didn't see the driver at start and end, or the guard beyond the couple of times they came through so likely swapped mid-route. I may be misremembering the host boarding at Cardiff, but I suspect their comment I overheard about working the trip back may mean they were then going to then change over mid-route on the way back.

Cannot begin to imagine what comes into it for the even longer trips!

It's why diagrammers get paid such high salaries.

Seriously, as a former diagrammer it's a fascinating job but can be ... challenging!

 

[howstaff]

Quite rightly so! The thought alone that the one train could have potentially 4 different crew types with different break requirements, locations they can come from and routes they can cover is beyond challenging to me.

 

[6Gman]

Quite rightly so! The thought alone that the one train could have potentially 4 different crew types with different break requirements, locations they can come from and routes they can cover is beyond challenging to me.

Don't worry - it was beyond challenging to some of my former colleagues!

But it's like lots of jobs - they look impossible from the outside, but properly trained and willing to learn it just becomes "the job".

 

[WTT Gremlin]

Quite rightly so! The thought alone that the one train could have potentially 4 different crew types with different break requirements, locations they can come from and routes they can cover is beyond challenging to me.

And in addition to the various Train Crew diagrams, you also have the rolling stock diagram (or diagrams in the case of 2 or more multiple units), and these then ‘deliver’ the WTT.

And diagrams can be a sufficiently tight fit with the WTT that an amendment of single digit minutes can bust them.

And with Crew diagrams it isn’t just the train and break timings, but also the time to/from where there break is taken, or to/from where they sign on.

 

[craigybagel]

Crew changes generally happen at Crewe, Shrewsbury or Cardiff - sometimes Newport or Hereford (mainly disruption).

Hereford has a couple of booked driver changes on a Sunday. Newport has one on a Saturday, although that involves North Wales - Cardiff services rather than Manchester.

At one point the 1630 Manchester - Swansea had the same Cardiff driver and guard working it from Shrewsbury all the way to Swansea which was a little unusual, but it's back to the more common Crewe and Cardiff change overs now.

As a result, many (almost all?) services have some sort of crew swap mid-service; the only pairing that could work a complete Manchester Piccadilly- Cardiff Central service, end to end, would be a Crewe driver and a Crewe guard

I don't have access to the full guards diagrams right now, but I've checked the only weekday service that currently has the same driver all the way from Manchester to Cardiff and that has a change of guard at Crewe, so certainly on weekdays there aren't any.

But it's like lots of jobs - they look impossible from the outside, but properly trained and willing to learn it just becomes "the job".

And in addition to the various Train Crew diagrams, you also have the rolling stock diagram (or diagrams in the case of 2 or more multiple units), and these then ‘deliver’ the WTT.

And diagrams can be a sufficiently tight fit with the WTT that an amendment of single digit minutes can bust them.

And with Crew diagrams it isn’t just the train and break timings, but also the time to/from where there break is taken, or to/from where they sign on.

For drivers, the one weekday service on which they work all the way through I mentioned above is right on the limit for maximum driving hours. An extension by even a single minute would breach the agreements around diagram composition. Occasionally during engineering work it is retimed, and alternative crewing arrangements have to be used.

 

[NSE]

Speaking of four crews, there was a Southern service that ran London Bridge to Norwood Junction by a metro crew (I think London Bridge), then Norwood Junction to East Croydon with a Horsham driver to allow them to cover that, then a Brighton Driver from East Croydon to Purley to keep up their familiarity with the slows and then finally a Norwood driver for the Tattenham portion and a Selhurst driver for the Caterham. Five different depots and five different drivers just for operational purposes.

The job doesn’t exist now. But I agree, it’s fascinating.

 

[Bow Fell]

At the other extreme…

There’s a Northern Blackpool job, to keep route knowledge of Salford Crescent to Manchester Victoria as well as Blackburn to Clitheroe.

It involves a Blackpool driver travelling pass to Bolton, relieving a Blackburn driver and working it to Manchester Victoria, being relieved by the same Blackburn driver who takes it to Rochdale and back, they then relieve the same Blackburn driver and drive it Manchester Victoria to Bolton, get relieved by the same Blackburn driver again at Bolton, who drives it Bolton to Blackburn, where the Blackpool driver relieves the Blackburn driver again and they drive it to Clitheroe and back!

 

[Andy Pacer]

For drivers, the one weekday service on which they work all the way through I mentioned above is right on the limit for maximum driving hours. An extension by even a single minute would breach the agreements around diagram composition. Occasionally during engineering work it is retimed, and alternative crewing arrangements have to be used.

Really interesting, out of interest you mention the Manchester to Cardiff bit being on the limit of hours, is that for the piece or the daily hours?

 

[Iron_Duke]

Really interesting, out of interest you mention the Manchester to Cardiff bit being on the limit of hours, is that for the piece or the daily hours?

There's a maximum time a driver can 'sit in the seat' that cannot be diagrammed to exceed this. I read the post as referring to that rather than the length of turn.

 

[Andy Pacer]

There's a maximum time a driver can 'sit in the seat' that cannot be diagrammed to exceed this. I read the post as referring to that rather than the length of turn.

Yes agreed, I was just looking for clarification. Im used to diagramming and scheduling buses so am interested in the similarities.

 

[craigybagel]

Really interesting, out of interest you mention the Manchester to Cardiff bit being on the limit of hours, is that for the piece or the daily hours?

There's a maximum time a driver can 'sit in the seat' that cannot be diagrammed to exceed this. I read the post as referring to that rather than the length of turn.

Iron_Duke has it. The exact time will vary by TOC depending on what agreements they have with their drivers, but at TfW for drivers outside of the Valleys network the limit for diagrammed driving time is 4:15 before a driver needs to be relieved or the train shut down. In this case, you also need to factor in the time taken from Crewe to Manchester - the clock doesn't reset at Manchester. From relieving the inbound driver at Crewe, to going via Manchester to Cardiff and getting relieved by another driver there, on that particular diagram is 4:15 exactly.

There is also a daily limit for driving and a maximum diagram length but neither of those are an issue in this case.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Iron_Duke has it. The exact time will vary by TOC depending on what agreements they have with their drivers, but at TfW for drivers outside of the Valleys network the limit for diagrammed driving time is 4:15 before a driver needs to be relieved or the train shut down. In this case, you also need to factor in the time taken from Crewe to Manchester - the clock doesn't reset at Manchester. From relieving the inbound driver at Crewe, to going via Manchester to Cardiff and getting relieved by another driver there, on that particular diagram is 4:15 exactly.

There is also a daily limit for driving and a maximum diagram length but neither of those are an issue in this case.

If it's right at the limit, what would happen during late running or disruption? Would they swap out at Hereford or Newport? Or carry on through?

I realise it will probably depend a lot on how much delay and each scenario would be different, but out of interest anything you can add would be interesting and appreciated.

 

[craigybagel]

If it's right at the limit, what would happen during late running or disruption? Would they swap out at Hereford or Newport? Or carry on through?

I realise it will probably depend a lot on how much delay and each scenario would be different, but out of interest anything you can add would be interesting and appreciated.

The limit only applies to what can be diagrammed in advance. If the journey was timetabled to take 4:20, then it wouldn't be allowed. If it's timetabled to take 4:15, but on the day ran 5 minutes late, then normally that's just how it is. So long as the delay isn't big enough to impact on breaks it's usually not an issue.

 

[Watershed]

The limit only applies to what can be diagrammed in advance. If the journey was timetabled to take 4:20, then it wouldn't be allowed. If it's timetabled to take 4:15, but on the day ran 5 minutes late, then normally that's just how it is. So long as the delay isn't big enough to impact on breaks it's usually not an issue.

Is the turnaround in Manchester too tight to allow the train to be shut down and set up again (on paper)?

 

[craigybagel]

Is the turnaround in Manchester too tight to allow the train to be shut down and set up again (on paper)?

For 67 & MKIV, yes. It can be done on 197s though.

 

[Turbo004]

If it's right at the limit, what would happen during late running or disruption? Would they swap out at Hereford or Newport? Or carry on through?

I realise it will probably depend a lot on how much delay and each scenario would be different, but out of interest anything you can add would be interesting and appreciated.

If there is a delay which impacts on breaks at Cardiff which would then result in the Northbound service from Cardiff which the Crewe based traincrew would work being delayed Control and Resources would try to get relief with with a Cardiff driver and / or guard at Newport. This would mean the Crewe traincrew would have a break at Newport whilst the Cardiff traincrew would travel on a service from Cardiff to Newport before working Newport - Cardiff - Newport and travel back to Cardiff without having a break. This ensures that the return journey from Cardiff to Manchester leaves with minimal delay despite a substantial delay on the Crewe traincrew's Southbound service. This management of traincrew is very common on Marches services.

It is far less common that Southbound Crewe based traincrew are relieved at Hereford. This is because there would have to be a lot of notice of the delay. There is rarely enough time for control / resources to plan to have traincrew to travel from Cardiff to Hereford to relieve the delayed Southbound service. In addition the delay would have to be substantial for relief at Hereford to be necessary. For example a delay of up to at least one hour with traincrew relief at Newport will probably lead to no Northbound delays.