TfW imposing incorrect failed inspection charge

[AdamWW]

Well I'm rather unhappy.

I have just had a £10 TfW PAYG failed inspection charge incorrectly imposed.

I definitely tapped on at the start station. I'm always very careful to make sure I do tap on and get a green tick when I use PAYG.

I haven't used it for months - and never from Taffs Well - so I am not getting my memory confused with another occasion.

On this occasion I was travelling with someone who had never used PAYG and showing them how it worked. so I was paying particular attention. They confirm that we tapped on and got green ticks. They have also been charged £10.

I have of course complained and asked for a refund but last time I looked in the T&Cs they said that such charges are unrefundable.

Pehaps I will be pleasantly surprised but since it's my word against their computers I'm not confident of a satisfactory outcome.

 

[Watershed]

You could make a GDPR Subject Access Request for the station CCTV footage around the time of your visit. That wouldn't necessarily show the green tick but it should be sufficiently detailed to show that you touched something to the reader. That would leave the onus on TfW to show what happened when you did that, e.g. a failed read in their logs.

In practice I suspect their customer services will be less mercenary than their terms claim they can be. A term purporting that the failed inspection charge is final is also unlikely to pass muster under consumer law.

 

[Haywain]

When did you make the journey? In my experience with GTR's KeyGo it can take a few days for a missing touch to appear.

 

[AdamWW]

In practice I suspect their customer services will be less mercenary than their terms claim they can be.

Yes you may well be right.

But my views are coloured by the very unsatisfactory outcomes I've had in the past when engaging with their customer services, albeit never for something like this.

A term purporting that the failed inspection charge is final is also unlikely to pass muster under consumer law.

Perhaps. But I've thought that for various things in the past and the legal experts here have said otherwise.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2025 ==

When did you make the journey? In my experience with GTR's KeyGo it can take a few days for a missing touch to appear.

Yesterday.

I did use PAYG regularly a few months back, and while sometimes touches didn't show up in the app, they always appeared by the following day (except for the couple that for some reason didn't register at all, but they didn't lead to failed inspections).

I think TfW are using a completely different system to GTR - for a start it's based on contactless bank cards not smartcards.

But if it can take days for a touch to register, I don't think they should be in such a rush to be penalising people for failed inspections.

Edited to add:

Actually, looking at my own posts on the main PAYG thread, I did have one journey that took more than a day to show up. Fortunately I didn't have an inspection on that trip - I did wonder at the time what would have happened if I'd been charged £10 for not having tapped in. So maybe it will resolve itself.

And thinking about this again, if it failed to register the tap on, I should also be seeing an incomplete journey with it thinking that my tap off (which was at an unbarriered station) was the start of a journey.
This is relevant, because that tap is showing in the app as my last tap and therefore must have been uploaded. So now I am very confused.
I wish I'd checked to see if the tap in was showing on the app. I normally do, but I'm out of the habit of using PAYG.

Oh - and they really, really should not be referring to these as Penalty Fares.

 

[Haywain]

I think TfW are using a completely different system to GTR - for a start it's based on contactless bank cards not smartcards.

The card used is different but I don't think that means the underlying method of calculating fares will be any different.

But if it can take days for a touch to register, I don't think they should be in such a rush to be penalising people for failed inspections.

I have never had a missing touch as part of a standalone single journey, so can't say what GTR would do in that situation.

 

[Pushpit]

You can also consider taking TfW through debt recovery courtesy of the civil courts. Naturally it's best practice to negotiate with TfW to seek an out of court settlement first.

 

[Haywain]

You can also consider taking TfW through debt recovery courtesy of the civil courts. Naturally it's best practice to negotiate with TfW to seek an out of court settlement first.

It's a bit early for that, isn't it?

 

[AdamWW]

The card used is different but I don't think that means the underlying method of calculating fares will be any different.

OK let's put that aside.

But from what I've read, the GTR system works differently overall and I suspect they are using a different supplier.

 

[Watershed]

It's a bit early for that, isn't it?

Well, if consumers adopted the same approach as most TOCs take to revenue protection, the first step would be to send a letter threatening legal action. But I agree that as gratifying as it may feel, it is unlikely to be as productive as engaging with customer services - at least initially.

 

[Pushpit]

Well, if consumers adopted the same approach as most TOCs take to revenue protection, the first step would be to send a letter threatening legal action. But I agree that as gratifying as it may feel, it is unlikely to be as productive as engaging with customer services - at least initially.

Well as you will know, I would have zero scruples in doing precisely that, along with charging my very reasonable administration fee. I wonder if a letter in Welsh would add to the experience?

 

[Lewisham2221]

I haven't used it for months - and never from Taffs Well - so I am not getting my memory confused with another occasion.

Assuming Taffs Well is where you tapped in - Journey Check suggests that the Tap and Go readers (and the TVMs) are currently out of order at Taffs Well

 

[AdamWW]

Assuming Taffs Well is where you tapped in - Journey Check suggests that the Tap and Go readers (and the TVMs) are currently out of order at Taffs Well

Yes it was and that may indeed be the problem.

How nice of them to just go ahead and issue fines even though they knew there were problems with the readers.

It also says that the vending machines are out of order, which was indeed obviously the case.

But the reader was acting perfectly normally.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

But the reader was acting perfectly normally.

Seems it wasn't. Can you access your TfW journey history to see if you were actually recorded as having tapped in?

 

[AdamWW]

Seems it wasn't. Can you access your TfW journey history to see if you were actually recorded as having tapped in?

OK I didn't think I'd have to spell this out but.....when I tapped my card I got the usual green tick and, unlike the ticket machines which said they were out of service, there was no indication that it was not behaving in the normal fashion.

The app is showing the tap out as a "Last tapped" entry.
I didn't look in time to see if the tap in showed up there before it was replaced with the inspection tap and then the tap out.
It would be very nice if the app could show more than just the most recent tap.

My journey history isn't showing the tap in or the tap out. Just the "Penalty Fare"

Since the second tap was clearly uploaded I'd expect to see an incomplete journey but perhaps it's clever enough to associate it with the failed inspection and just issue one penalty, rather than a failed inspection penalty and a charge for an incomplete journey.

Adam

 

[Puffing Devil]

Using my phone on the Manchester Metrolink, I get a charge/tap-in shown on my card in Google Wallet on the first tap. I'm wondering if anything like this is shown for TfW? Also, using my physical card shows up as a transaction on my phone app. May not be relevant, but perhaps worth checking?

 

[Tom125]

That’s very confusing- the only time I’ve had a failed tap in from a faulty reader the “system” recorded it as “unknown” and it charged me £10 pending. A quick WhatsApp to customer services and they corrected the fare to the correct £4.20. The customer services team on WhatsApp are very good so I’d explain it to them.

In the app it showed “unknown” to “Cardiff Central”.

 

[AdamWW]

Using my phone on the Manchester Metrolink, I get a charge/tap-in shown on my card in Google Wallet on the first tap. I'm wondering if anything like this is shown for TfW? Also, using my physical card shows up as a transaction on my phone app. May not be relevant, but perhaps worth checking?

I'm using a physical card which isn't associated with an app that would show anything in real time.

But the TfW app itself shows the most recent tap.
You have to look before it's overwritten by the next one though.
Normally I check it after a tap and if it doesn't register straightaway I make a note that I definitely did tap in while it's still fresh in my mind before I start doubting myself.
I haven't used PAYG for a while though and I forgot to do that for the first tap but - given that I haven't used it for a while, and never at that station, I am absolutely sure my recollection of tapping in is not false.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2025 ==

That’s very confusing- the only time I’ve had a failed tap in from a faulty reader the “system” recorded it as “unknown” and it charged me £10 pending. A quick WhatsApp to customer services and they corrected the fare to the correct £4.20. The customer services team on WhatsApp are very good so I’d explain it to them.

In the app it showed “unknown” to “Cardiff Central”.

In your case you had clear evidence that you weren't fare evading because you had a tap recorded as "unknown".

I know that I tapped in but have no evidence of that as the only tap showing in my journey history is the failed one on the train.

 

[tigermonstera]

Are you able to correct your journey in the app? You can do it if tapping out does not register, but I don't know if you can when the tap in hasn't registered. Either way, I believe you have until Wednesday to contact TfW about the problem according to their FAQ.

 

[AdamWW]

Are you able to correct your journey in the app? You can do it if tapping out does not register, but I don't know if you can when the tap in hasn't registered. Either way, I believe you have until Wednesday to contact TfW about the problem according to their FAQ.

There is no journey showing. So either both taps failed, or they aren't showing the tap out because there's a corresponding failed inspection.

Anyway it's now 3 days days on and the charges haven't miraculously reversed themselves, and nor have TfW been able to acknowledge my request for them to do so let alone actually deal with it.

I guess that's it with PAYG for me then.

Shame because overall it seems quite a good scheme, though I noticed a few days ago there were a large number of readers out of action. Maybe I've missed it but I haven't seen anything suggesting what one is supposed to do when that happens.

 

[dmncf]

Assuming Taffs Well is where you tapped in - Journey Check suggests that the Tap and Go readers (and the TVMs) are currently out of order at Taffs Well

@AdamWW it's worth saving a screenshot of that for your dispute.
Did you pay by credit card? If you have been unable to resolve the issue with the merchant, then you could ask your credit card company to initiate a chargeback. I imagine that, even if you later resolve the dispute amicably with TfW, there's a risk that they might never accept this card again due to the chargeback, so maybe think whether this would be problematic for you.

 

[AdamWW]

@AdamWW it's worth saving a screenshot of that for your dispute.

I thought of that! (Eventually)

Did you pay by credit card? If you have been unable to resolve the issue with the merchant, then you could ask your credit card company to initiate a chargeback. I imagine that, even if you later resolve the dispute amicably with TfW, there's a risk that they might never accept this card again due to the chargeback, so maybe think whether this would be problematic for you.

I've managed to make contact via Whatsapp so we'll see what happens.

(In passing, I think chargeback works for both debit and credit cards - it's the Section 75 protection for purchase over £100 that only applies to credit cards).

If I was deliberately fare evading I would have been particularly stupid to have:
1) Got on the train and sat down next to where the guard was, for a short journey
2) When the guard came round, offered my card for an inspection tap rather than asking for a ticket, given that guards happily sell them on trains and in any case the ticket machines weren't working

Of course I could have just forgotten, but I didn't (and maybe there is CCTV evidence showing that).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 May 2025 ==

Added:

Well it turns out that the reader was off-line, the stored taps were uploaded yesterday afternoon and my journey history has now been corrected, and in a bizarre concidence all this happened to take place just after I contacted them via Whatsapp to ask it to be dealt with.

Stranger things happen I suppose.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Added:

Well it turns out that the reader was off-line, the stored taps were uploaded yesterday afternoon and my journey history has now been corrected, and in a bizarre concidence all this happened to take place just after I contacted them via Whatsapp to ask it to be dealt with.

Stranger things happen I suppose.

Or alternatively it's customer services working as designed i.e. customer makes contact with a problem, TfW employee picks up problem and resolves it.

 

[ArranArchie]

Glad it's been corrected. I only have experience with Cornwall PAYG so my message here might not be relevant.

There was one occasion recently when the reader wasn't seeing my card - when I looked closely I noticed it said it was off-line in the bottom right corner. It was still showing the usual "tap here" message. Luckily the other reader in the station was still online and working.

So I wonder if readers are supposed to still read cards when offline (as what happened to you), or if they're meant to stop listening for taps (as what happened to me).

 

[AdamWW]

Or alternatively it's customer services working as designed i.e. customer makes contact with a problem, TfW employee picks up problem and resolves it.

But then says they didn't in fact do anything to adjust the charges and it all happened without their intervention.

There was one occasion recently when the reader wasn't seeing my card - when I looked closely I noticed it said it was off-line in the bottom right corner. It was still showing the usual "tap here" message. Luckily the other reader in the station was still online and working.

So I wonder if readers are supposed to still read cards when offline (as what happened to you), or if they're meant to stop listening for taps (as what happened to me).

Yes I'd be curious about that.

I have had a TfW reader fail to let me tap out and I had to cross over to the other platform.

I don't think a scheme where an off-line reader results in them temporarily collecting lots of £10 fines is a terribly good one.
Especially as there's no indication that it might be an error that will sort itself out.

I'm not in a situation where being £10 closer to my credit limit than I should be for a week is a problem, but not everyone is that fortunate.

 

[dmncf]

So I wonder if readers are supposed to still read cards when offline (as what happened to you), or if they're meant to stop listening for taps (as what happened to me).

My guess is that readers are designed to still read cards when offline, because the design envisages them typically being offline for a matter of seconds or minutes without the customer noticing; not hours or days.

 

[AdamWW]

My guess is that readers are designed to still read cards when offline, because the design envisages them typically being offline for a matter of seconds or minutes without the customer noticing; not hours or days.

That would certainly make sense, and preventing them from operating would be a pain.

But perhaps if they remain off line for more than a short period they should shut down.

And maybe they do and I just got unlucky.

 

[Elecman]

Have TfW confirmed that they have erased the failed inspection flag from your record too ?

 

[AdamWW]

Have TfW confirmed that they have erased the failed inspection flag from your record too ?

Well, I don't know anything about failed inspection flags.

I did assume that any record that I'd travelled without tapping in would have been removed given that the journey history shown in my app resolved to the correct one.

But maybe one shouldn't assume.

A bit late perhaps, but I have asked.

And kept a record of the discussion with TfW.