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TfW Class 67+Mk4 sets: trip planning/experiences, diagram updates etc

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sd0733

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Tomorrow Will see a further loco swap, yesterdays villain 67013 will come off HD03 after 1V39 with 67010 taking its place for tomorrow's 1W96.
 
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Jez

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ive just been looking at tickets for a trip in July and the 1630 Manchester is showing as going through to Swansea as it stands now. Surely this is an automatic case for delay repay if it will continue to be curtailed to terminating at Cardiff. Especially if the next service to Swansea (a stopper) is missed as it has a 7 minute connection time. It just seems unfair they are selling advance tickets as a through train when its highly likely not to be.
 
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SaltAndVinegar

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Jez said:
ive just been looking at tickets for a trip in July and the 1630 Manchester is showing as going through to Swansea as it stands now. Surely this is an automatic case for delay repay if it will continue to be curtailed to terminating at Cardiff. Especially if the next service to Swansea (a stopper) is missed as it has a 7 minute connection time. It just seems unfair they are selling advance tickets as a through train when its highly likely not to be.
Click to expand...
TfW are consistently making timetable amendments to the 1630 originating at MAN such that it terminates short at CDF rather than SWA as is in the working timetable.

This is because that service has to go from CDF to SWA which takes around an hour, then it has a short wait before making an empty move back to CDF and reversing into the depot at Canton as 5V50; in the timetable it is due to arrive into the depot around 2230. This ECS move is timetabled to coincide with another Mk4 set arriving into Canton around the same time, and the depot is not currently equipped to handle multiple arrivals of these sets in a short space of time. The other set around the same time is the 1830 MAN-CDF that is timetabled to move into the depot around 2211 as 5V62.

To avoid the issue at Canton, the amendment is made usually a week or two in advance to have all the 1630 MAN-SWA services changed to terminate at CDF.

I agree that the advances are misleading in this instance. If I recall correctly, it’s something like 1630 at MAN to terminate in SWA around 2044. When that service arrives in CDF, there is a 1950-ish (I think) swanline slow/stopper service that gets into SWA just after 9pm. So it is effectively a 15 minute delay. Although I believe delay repay is intended to be based on the timetable available the night prior to travel, which can include any amendments. There may be a consumer rights angle to this particularly if you’ve been sold an advance ticket with the specific times, particularly as it would be easy to prove they have a pattern of never working to the advertised timings and continuing on to SWA.

The minimum connection time at CDF is 7 minutes. Although that connecting service to SWA typically departs from platform zero so you have to go down into the subway, traverse the barriers and then make your way up to zero and if the Mk4 service arrives into CDF a few minutes late, this becomes very difficult. On occasion the guard on the Mk4 service may be able to request a hold on the swanline stopper to give connecting passengers the chance to minimise the delay to their onward journey.

(Edited to clarify some timings)
 
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sd0733

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Jacob Porrett said:
Will 020 come out again? It's used all the time no?
Click to expand...
It came off a set a couple of weeks back to go for a C exam.
Seems likely it's just effectively a paperwork exercise for when locos are out of traffic slightly longer than the norm.

Also on the loco front; 67008 has gone to Crewe ETD for tyre turning, taking 67025 with it for repairs after its trip from Holyhead. 67016 has gone onto HD06 at ATC.
 
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37052 xb mr

37052 xb mr

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sd0733 said:
It came off a set a couple of weeks back to go for a C exam.
Seems likely it's just effectively a paperwork exercise for when locos are out of traffic slightly longer than the norm.

Also on the loco front; 67008 has gone to Crewe ETD for tyre turning, taking 67025 with it for repairs after its trip from Holyhead. 67016 has gone onto HD06 at ATC.
Click to expand...

Thanks
 
37052 xb mr

37052 xb mr

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SaltAndVinegar said:
TfW are consistently making timetable amendments to the 1630 originating at MAN such that it terminates short at CDF rather than SWA as is in the working timetable.

This is because that service has to go from CDF to SWA which takes around an hour, then it has a short wait before making an empty move back to CDF and reversing into the depot at Canton as 5V50; in the timetable it is due to arrive into the depot around 2230. This ECS move is timetabled to coincide with another Mk4 set arriving into Canton around the same time, and the depot is not currently equipped to handle multiple arrivals of these sets in a short space of time. The other set around the same time is the 1830 MAN-CDF that is timetabled to move into the depot around 2211 as 5V62.

To avoid the issue at Canton, the amendment is made usually a week or two in advance to have all the 1630 MAN-SWA services changed to terminate at CDF.

I agree that the advances are misleading in this instance. If I recall correctly, it’s something like 1630 at MAN to terminate in SWA around 2044. When that service arrives in CDF, there is a 1950-ish (I think) swanline slow/stopper service that gets into SWA just after 9pm. So it is effectively a 15 minute delay. Although I believe delay repay is intended to be based on the timetable available the night prior to travel, which can include any amendments. There may be a consumer rights angle to this particularly if you’ve been sold an advance ticket with the specific times, particularly as it would be easy to prove they have a pattern of never working to the advertised timings and continuing on to SWA.

The minimum connection time at CDF is 7 minutes. Although that connecting service to SWA typically departs from platform zero so you have to go down into the subway, traverse the barriers and then make your way up to zero and if the Mk4 service arrives into CDF a few minutes late, this becomes very difficult. On occasion the guard on the Mk4 service may be able to request a hold on the swanline stopper to give connecting passengers the chance to minimise the delay to their onward journey.

(Edited to clarify some timings)
Click to expand...

That falls apart though now
As 1V62 18.30 off Manchester is
Currently a Unit diagram
And there is only one set going to
Canton each night.
 
Topological

Topological

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37052 xb mr said:
That falls apart though now
As 1V62 18.30 off Manchester is
Currently a Unit diagram
And there is only one set going to
Canton each night.
Click to expand...
I raised this last week when the substitution was set out.

The two MK4 at the same time excuse is just that, there are many reasons not to send a set to Swansea (not least it is not needed for the number of passengers between Cardiff and Swansea at that time).

So far we have 1W13 still running as a Mk4 from Swansea, but that also does not need the capacity at that time. It cannot be that long until 1W13 gets chopped as well.

If they could just alter the timings of the connection (and platform if intending to use 0) then that would not be too bad. The advances can simply price in the connection. Outward there is a GWR that works for connections, but the advances get £5 added.
 
Welshguy1048

Welshguy1048

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Afternoon

What is on 1W96 tonight please ? - also, will it be loco or DVT leading from Chester to Holyhead ?

Thank you

Dave
 
Jacob Porrett

Jacob Porrett

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sd0733 said:
It came off a set a couple of weeks back to go for a C exam.
Seems likely it's just effectively a paperwork exercise for when locos are out of traffic slightly longer than the norm.

Also on the loco front; 67008 has gone to Crewe ETD for tyre turning, taking 67025 with it for repairs after its trip from Holyhead. 67016 has gone onto HD06 at ATC.
Click to expand...
So when locos go off for some kind of work for a period of time they go in that stored pool ?
 
37052 xb mr

37052 xb mr

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Topological said:
I raised this last week when the substitution was set out.

The two MK4 at the same time excuse is just that, there are many reasons not to send a set to Swansea (not least it is not needed for the number of passengers between Cardiff and Swansea at that time).

So far we have 1W13 still running as a Mk4 from Swansea, but that also does not need the capacity at that time. It cannot be that long until 1W13 gets chopped as well.

If they could just alter the timings of the connection (and platform if intending to use 0) then that would not be too bad. The advances can simply price in the connection. Outward there is a GWR that works for connections, but the advances get £5 added.
Click to expand...

1W13 ran from Swansea on Monday
But Cardiff start Tuesday & Wednesday.

Tuesday down as operator’s request
Wednesday planning error
 
BillStampy

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Topological said:
I raised this last week when the substitution was set out.

The two MK4 at the same time excuse is just that, there are many reasons not to send a set to Swansea (not least it is not needed for the number of passengers between Cardiff and Swansea at that time).

So far we have 1W13 still running as a Mk4 from Swansea, but that also does not need the capacity at that time. It cannot be that long until 1W13 gets chopped as well.

If they could just alter the timings of the connection (and platform if intending to use 0) then that would not be too bad. The advances can simply price in the connection. Outward there is a GWR that works for connections, but the advances get £5 added.
Click to expand...
I feel as if the MK4s could be much better utilised on services between Swansea and Cardiff but it's about timing them correctly and not throwing away many of the current diagrams. The services that should be MK4s (in my opinion for the extra capacity) should be within the times of 7am and 8am off Swansea (basically the service that links up to 1W55 currently) and the service after 1V46 towards Swansea, as both are within the peak time hours and would be a welcomed capacity upgrade. Of course as I've previously highlighted, this does face the issue of diagrams being messed with to make these types of changes and other recurring issues with the MK4s between Swansea and Manchester in terms of taking fuel capacity into account and so on. But those would be my "ideal" MK4 timings for Cardiff to Swansea, I don't want the idea to simply fade away into just Sunday services as they can be well used for capacity.
 
Topological

Topological

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BillStampy said:
I feel as if the MK4s could be much better utilised on services between Swansea and Cardiff but it's about timing them correctly and not throwing away many of the current diagrams. The services that should be MK4s (in my opinion for the extra capacity) should be within the times of 7am and 8am off Swansea (basically the service that links up to 1W55 currently) and the service after 1V46 towards Swansea, as both are within the peak time hours and would be a welcomed capacity upgrade. Of course as I've previously highlighted, this does face the issue of diagrams being messed with to make these types of changes and other recurring issues with the MK4s between Swansea and Manchester in terms of taking fuel capacity into account and so on. But those would be my "ideal" MK4 timings for Cardiff to Swansea, I don't want the idea to simply fade away into just Sunday services as they can be well used for capacity.
Click to expand...
We have explored the options for a later Swansea starting Mk4 before.

To keep the thread clean I have created a speculative discussion thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/alternative-diagrams-for-the-tfw-mk4.288125/
 
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Jez

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SaltAndVinegar said:
TfW are consistently making timetable amendments to the 1630 originating at MAN such that it terminates short at CDF rather than SWA as is in the working timetable.

This is because that service has to go from CDF to SWA which takes around an hour, then it has a short wait before making an empty move back to CDF and reversing into the depot at Canton as 5V50; in the timetable it is due to arrive into the depot around 2230. This ECS move is timetabled to coincide with another Mk4 set arriving into Canton around the same time, and the depot is not currently equipped to handle multiple arrivals of these sets in a short space of time. The other set around the same time is the 1830 MAN-CDF that is timetabled to move into the depot around 2211 as 5V62.

To avoid the issue at Canton, the amendment is made usually a week or two in advance to have all the 1630 MAN-SWA services changed to terminate at CDF.

I agree that the advances are misleading in this instance. If I recall correctly, it’s something like 1630 at MAN to terminate in SWA around 2044. When that service arrives in CDF, there is a 1950-ish (I think) swanline slow/stopper service that gets into SWA just after 9pm. So it is effectively a 15 minute delay. Although I believe delay repay is intended to be based on the timetable available the night prior to travel, which can include any amendments. There may be a consumer rights angle to this particularly if you’ve been sold an advance ticket with the specific times, particularly as it would be easy to prove they have a pattern of never working to the advertised timings and continuing on to SWA.

The minimum connection time at CDF is 7 minutes. Although that connecting service to SWA typically departs from platform zero so you have to go down into the subway, traverse the barriers and then make your way up to zero and if the Mk4 service arrives into CDF a few minutes late, this becomes very difficult. On occasion the guard on the Mk4 service may be able to request a hold on the swanline stopper to give connecting passengers the chance to minimise the delay to their onward journey.

(Edited to clarify some timings)
Click to expand...
Thank you for your detailed reply.

I cant understand why this wasnt sorted a long time ago. They would have known long before that there would be 2 MK4's going onto Canton at similar times. Also what about Saturdays? As far as I know the 1630 does go to Swansea on a Saturday and then does ECS movement to Canton. The 1830 i believe is also a MK4 on a Saturday?

Currently the 1830 is booked for a 197, so surely they can run the 1630 to Swansea as a temporary measure at the very least whilst that is booked for a 197.

The advance tickets make it even more annoying. Id much rather know if i need to change trains and if its a 7 minute connection that is my judgement whether i decide to risk it or not (and TFW would have to put alternative arrangements in place if it was a booked connection and missed). Personally I think the 7 minute connection over to platform 0 can be done easily if the MK4 arrives on time, even a few minutes late. But this is someone who is very familiar with Cardiff Central. Someone who wouldnt have a clue where platform 0 was would spend half of the 7 minutes trying to find it! So its far from ideal.

Delay repay should paid IMO if someone has an advance on the 1630 to anywhere West of Cardiff and the cancellation of the Cardiff-Swansea leg of this journey causes someone to be more than 15 mins late. If they have an anytime ticket you could argue that they may not get delay repay as would be aware. But if i was to book an advance to Swansea for say early July as far as I am concerned that service is planned to run and if on the day it doesnt i should get compensation as per the terms and conditions of my advance ticket.

The last time i travelled back from Manchester I used the 1530 which is a 197 but i was changing to the swanline for my local swanline stop (advance ticket throughout). The connection time was far too short at Cardiff to make it valid so it had me change at Bridgend (which was more than 7 minutes due to the swanline picking up Pontyclun etc). It turned out the Swanline left on time and the ex Manchester was a few minutes late so left behind it. The guard advised me to see if would be looped at Pencoed or Stormy. It didnt and I had to wait an hour for the next Swanline although I did get delay repay.
 
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J

Jez

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BillStampy said:
I feel as if the MK4s could be much better utilised on services between Swansea and Cardiff but it's about timing them correctly and not throwing away many of the current diagrams. The services that should be MK4s (in my opinion for the extra capacity) should be within the times of 7am and 8am off Swansea (basically the service that links up to 1W55 currently) and the service after 1V46 towards Swansea, as both are within the peak time hours and would be a welcomed capacity upgrade. Of course as I've previously highlighted, this does face the issue of diagrams being messed with to make these types of changes and other recurring issues with the MK4s between Swansea and Manchester in terms of taking fuel capacity into account and so on. But those would be my "ideal" MK4 timings for Cardiff to Swansea, I don't want the idea to simply fade away into just Sunday services as they can be well used for capacity.
Click to expand...
The 0530ish from Swansea is far too early to be of much use to most people. Having the 0745ish from Swansea run though to Manchester as MK4 would be much better IMO.

As for what can be done with the evening Swansea service, they might as well remove it from the timetable entirely and avoid the ridiculous timetable amendment a week or so before.
 
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