TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains

[VR494]

Not a good week so far on the training and testing, two units apparently failed with brake control units. Many of the training runs have had to be cancelled. Hearing reports of DI’s sat around unable to complete elements of the course because of units constantly failing. Took one group attempts into double figures to do the coupling exercise.

It doesn’t look like they’re going to be running for a few days after an apprent “operational incident” involving no brakes again yesterday. The sooner these things are canned the better, they are just not fit for purpose in the current form.

 

[AdamWW]

It doesn’t look like they’re going to be running for a few days after an apprent “operational incident” involving no brakes again yesterday. The sooner these things are canned the better, they are just not fit for purpose in the current form.

And then what?

Find some loose change down the back of the settee to buy a new fleet of 756s and keep 150s and 153s soldiering on until they arrive?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 May 2026 ==

Also....and somehow make it all work without being able to use line of sight running where currently planned.

 

[VR494]

And then what?

Find some loose change down the back of the settee to buy a new fleet of 756s and keep 150s and 153s soldiering on until they arrive?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 May 2026 ==

Also....and somehow make it all work without being able to use line of sight running where currently planned.

I think the upgrade to the Cardiff Bay area is the least of the concerns at the moment.

There was a significant incident involving the loss of braking, or unresponsive controls on a 398 out on training. This has now resulted in a total suspension of the program until it’s been resolved and investigated. These things don’t have the same braking systems as you’d find on a conventional heavy rail unit.

What has happened here for sure, you’ve been promised something, the product order is definitely not up to the standards. Whether this be through lack of research or limited opportunities with the financial support, or just a bad design. And there are now a load of people sat scratching their heads, trying to put square pegs in a round hole. Or trying to get and extra 400yards out of a battery!

There are now 34 of these tram-trains sitting in Taffs Well, all on lease, unable to move and facing an unknown future. Not to mention the depot and the extra staff they’ve hired for the x 4 an hour, which no doubt the funding is now gone for.

Whoever takes over tomorrow in the Assembly will be asking a lot of questions, especially the amount of money that has been wasted on this.

Just to add, the platform toilet facilities aren’t even finished either, these should have been installed and up and running by now.

 

[800001]

There was a significant incident involving the loss of braking, or unresponsive controls on a 398 out on training. This has now resulted in a total suspension of the program until it’s been resolved and investigated. These things don’t have the same braking systems as you’d find on a conventional heavy rail unit.

I'm struggling to understand how Stadler have apparently built a unit that has so many faults and issues, yet the company build hundreds of a trains and trams a year to a very good standard which are in use in many European countries.

These trains, if as bad as you constantly make out they are, are a massive failure on Stadlers part.

 

[AdamWW]

I'm struggling to understand how Stadler have apparently built a unit that has so many faults and issues, yet the company build hundreds of a trains and trams a year to a very good standard which are in use in many European countries.

These trains, if as bad as you constantly make out they are, are a massive failure on Stadlers part.

I believe they are made by a Spanish company which Stadler acquired.
They seem to have quite a history in providing similar vehicles to the 398s - including the 399s in South Yorkshire - so I don't know what has happened here.

 

[tfw756rider]

I believe they are made by a Spanish company which Stadler acquired.

Yes, Vossloh España became Stadler Rail Valencia SAU in late 2015. Stadler was then able to claim that they made locomotives (e.g. 68s) and tram-trains (e.g. 399s) in addition to the multiple-unit trains with the "funny names" from the Swiss part of Stadler.

 

[AdamWW]

Yes, Vossloh España became Stadler Rail Valencia SAU in late 2015. Stadler was then able to claim that they made locomotives (e.g. 68s) and tram-trains (e.g. 399s) in addition to the multiple-unit trains with the "funny names" from the Swiss part of Stadler.

Looking at this a bit more, the 398s seem to be a "Citylink" which is something that the company has made many versions of, including the South Yorkshire 399s.

Of course just because they have the same marketing name doesn't mean they are actually the same thing, but it does seem odd that they seem to have so many faults.

Curiously the Wikipedia page suggests that Citylinks are available with toilets...

 

[iamraymond]

I'm struggling to understand how Stadler have apparently built a unit that has so many faults and issues, yet the company build hundreds of a trains and trams a year to a very good standard which are in use in many European countries.

These trains, if as bad as you constantly make out they are, are a massive failure on Stadlers part.

I suspect what we are seeing is just noise and catastrophising, mixed with a reluctance and fear of change.

Problems happen, and problems are solved - it will all be fine.

 

[Wuggie Norple]

There was a significant incident involving the loss of braking, or unresponsive controls on a 398 out on training. This has now resulted in a total suspension of the program until it’s been resolved and investigated. These things don’t have the same braking systems as you’d find on a conventional heavy rail unit.

If correct, this assertion is rather concerning. Would it be a matter of interest to the RAIB?

 

[iamraymond]

I would imagine it would be an RAIB matter? An entire fleet "grounded" due to unresponsive controls sounds like a serious safety issue.

If correct of course.

 

[bahnause]

If correct, this assertion is rather concerning. Would it be a matter of interest to the RAIB?

It’s kind of funny that the Stadler Citylink trams seem to work well in all the areas where they’re used (Chemnitz, Karlsruhe, Hungary, Mexico...) except for one. You might almost get the idea that it has nothing to do with the vehicles themselves...

All vehicles on rails are equipped with direct brake control to bring the vehicle to a stop in the event of brake control unit failures. And while it is inevitable that brake control units sometimes fail, this is by no means a reason for panic-driven activism. But “brake failure” just makes for a good headline, doesn’t it?

 

[Wuggie Norple]

It’s kind of funny that the Stadler Citylink trams seem to work well in all the areas where they’re used (Chemnitz, Karlsruhe, Hungary, Mexico...) except for one. You might almost get the idea that it has nothing to do with the vehicles themselves...

All vehicles on rails are equipped with direct brake control to bring the vehicle to a stop in the event of brake control unit failures. And while it is inevitable that brake control units sometimes fail, this is by no means a reason for panic-driven activism. But “brake failure” just makes for a good headline, doesn’t it?

I'm not sure how many braking systems these tram-trains have, but presumably they have an independent emergency brake?

 

[Dr Day]

I suspect what we are seeing is just noise and catastrophising, mixed with a reluctance and fear of change.

Wondering if Cardiff Metro had been a new-build tram-based system, whether these 'issues' would have arisen in the same way? People will have to accept these are basically trams, rather than trains, and if it hadn't been for the original situation whereby tracks on the Rhymney side would have to be shared with freight trains the whole Valleys network could have been a lot more 'tram'-like, which was always the vision of Mark Barry and those intially promoting the 'metro' concept.

 

[bahnause]

I'm not sure how many braking systems these tram-trains have, but presumably they have an independent emergency brake?

It is less about a havingsecond braking system and more about a way to operate the existing system independently, bypassing the brake control unit.

 

[nigelsporne]

Have Plaid had anything to say about the 398s in their pre election promises?

 

[positron]

Wondering if Cardiff Metro had been a new-build tram-based system, whether these 'issues' would have arisen in the same way? People will have to accept these are basically trams, rather than trains, and if it hadn't been for the original situation whereby tracks on the Rhymney side would have to be shared with freight trains the whole Valleys network could have been a lot more 'tram'-like, which was always the vision of Mark Barry and those intially promoting the 'metro' concept.

It wasn't just that, they wanted to keep direct services to Barry from the valleys and for that they knew they needed heavy rail, so the rhymney line got Flirts. Perhaps also the incline+ tunnel Cat free section meant the city links wouldn't last.

 

[chargesmith]

Have Plaid had anything to say about the 398s in their pre election promises?

Most of it was supporting the rail projects that have already been proposed:

Rail

www.partyof.wales

 

[Bob Price]

Most of it was supporting the rail projects that have already been proposed:

Rail

www.partyof.wales

Yes it was Reform who wanted to cancel current rail projects.

 

[ajay1071]

Indeed Reform wanted to scrap new rail investment and spend it on roads predominantly in the south east of Wales.

 

[Caaardiff]

Indeed Reform wanted to scrap new rail investment and spend it on roads predominantly in the south east of Wales.

Which shows how little Reform actually know about the needs of Wales. Those stations aren't going to fix the M4 problem but they are most certainly needed as an alternative as car usage continues to grow.

 

[ajay1071]

Which shows how little Reform actually know about the needs of Wales. Those stations aren't going to fix the M4 problem but they are most certainly needed as an alternative as car usage continues to grow.

I think the proposed Cardiff Parkway and other new stations will be of great benefit in helping to alleviate the congestion around the roads in the south east of Wales. When you add the proposed new TFW direct services to Bristol this will also enhance a viable alternative for the commuter traffic and the residents in general on both sides of the severn estuary,

 

[fgw_43025]

I suspect what we are seeing is just noise and catastrophising, mixed with a reluctance and fear of change.

Problems happen, and problems are solved - it will all be fine.

And yet the fleet has been standing idle for years. At what point do we acknowledge there might be some issues!

 

[Cardiff123]

And yet the fleet has been standing idle for years. At what point do we acknowledge there might be some issues!

Also, every time there's a major fault discovered, the clock is reset on fault free running miles needed to pass each unit into service. So presumably, following this latest fault, the clock has been reset back to zero.

The first appearance of James Price in front of the transport & infrastructure committee of the new Senedd should be interesting, providing the new members know what questions to ask of course, and are prepared to push for actual answers and explanations.

 

[800001]

Also, every time there's a major fault discovered, the clock is reset on fault free running miles needed to pass each unit into service. So presumably, following this latest fault, the clock has been reset back to zero.

The first appearance of James Price in front of the transport & infrastructure committee of the new Senedd should be interesting, providing the new members know what questions to ask of course, and are prepared to push for actual answers and explanations.

is all of the Infrastructure installed and available across the network where 398s are scheduled to work? Ie if units and crew avaialble could the 398 enter service now?

 

[Chris125]

And yet the fleet has been standing idle for years. At what point do we acknowledge there might be some issues!

Is anyone saying they don't have issues which need fixing?

 

[AdamWW]

Also, every time there's a major fault discovered, the clock is reset on fault free running miles needed to pass each unit into service. So presumably, following this latest fault, the clock has been reset back to zero.

Are you saying that if a fault is found on one unit that is common to the fleet they all get their clock reset?

 

[Cardiff123]

Are you saying that if a fault is found on one unit that is common to the fleet they all get their clock reset?

I don't know, but if a major fault is found that grounds the entire fleet, then I guess it's a possibility?

is all of the Infrastructure installed and available across the network where 398s are scheduled to work? Ie if units and crew avaialble could the 398 enter service now?

The 756s entered service on the Treherbert, Merthyr Tydfil & Aberdare lines in November 2024, because the infrastructure was ready and the 756s had been delivered and were ready, but the 398s were not ready.

 

[AdamWW]

is all of the Infrastructure installed and available across the network where 398s are scheduled to work? Ie if units and crew avaialble could the 398 enter service now?

So far as I know the Cardiff Bay branch wiring isn't live yet so maybe that's a constraint.
But they did seem to run a Pontypridd to Cardiff Bay shuttle for a good part of the day recently (not in passenger service, of course) despite this.

 

[VR494]

Speaking to various sources in the know, what may have been the cause here is the excessive heat that has been generated from the electromagnetic braking system, which may have resulted in a serious episode of brake fade.

The 398’s primary braking system is an electronic, regenerative braking system, combining a hydraulic disc system for lower speeds. The heat from the system dissipates, but in this case, the wheel set has overheated, excessive running at high speeds and stop start work maybe? Trams don’t usually travel around all day at these speeds.

The only backup is a magnetic system which applies to the rails, and that also supposedly didn’t work either when it was demanded by the crew. There is also a lack of fire detection on the units and crews would be unaware of a fire on the unit.

Aslef have apparently pulled the training course too. And a similar incident of unresponsive controls happened on the pilot course, but was still signed off!

The system on the valleys, using beacons and discontinuous electricity, has been designed around the 756 units as a test bed. There are still a load of readability issues, and a lot of these would make the 398’s sitting ducks due to the less robust design.

Also running in multiple, the ASDO system is only working on the front unit, meaning the doors on the second unit do not release as commanded. The only work around is for drivers to disable to system, which then removes the correct side enable protection. The camera system is also very poor, and in rain the driver cannot see.

I’m sorry to be repeatedly negative, but I can’t see these things happening. They need to cut the loss and look at alternatives.

The May times they’ve promised are not going to happen, the mainline is going to short of units for the uplift they require.

They had planned to have them out for June, but this is not happening now.

 

[Cardiff123]

Speaking to various sources in the know, what may have been the cause here is the excessive heat that has been generated from the electromagnetic braking system, which may have resulted in a serious episode of brake fade.

The 398’s primary braking system is an electronic, regenerative braking system, combining a hydraulic disc system for lower speeds. The heat from the system dissipates, but in this case, the wheel set has overheated, excessive running at high speeds and stop start work maybe? Trams don’t usually travel around all day at these speeds.

The only backup is a magnetic system which applies to the rails, and that also supposedly didn’t work either when it was demanded by the crew. There is also a lack of fire detection on the units and crews would be unaware of a fire on the unit.

Aslef have apparently pulled the training course too. And a similar incident of unresponsive controls happened on the pilot course, but was still signed off!

The system on the valleys, using beacons and discontinuous electricity, has been designed around the 756 units as a test bed. There are still a load of readability issues, and a lot of these would make the 398’s sitting ducks due to the less robust design.

Also running in multiple, the ASDO system is only working on the front unit, meaning the doors on the second unit do not release as commanded. The only work around is for drivers to disable to system, which then removes the correct side enable protection. The camera system is also very poor, and in rain the driver cannot see.

I’m sorry to be repeatedly negative, but I can’t see these things happening. They need to cut the loss and look at alternatives.

The May times they’ve promised are not going to happen, the mainline is going to short of units for the uplift they require.

They had planned to have them out for June, but this is not happening now.

The problem with abandoning the 398s is that it's not just the 398s that would be abandoned.
Without the 398s, the Taffs Well depot would be mothballed, any aspirations for on-street running in Cardiff (which is a large part of Cardiff Crossrail) would be gone, 4tph to the Heads of the Valleys is gone, and EU funding would need to be returned if 4tph to is not achieved. There's too much at stake to just abandon the 398s now.