TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains

[MikePJ]

What is stopping them starting to use the 398’s on say the Pontypridd to Cardiff Bay service?

Driver training. They’re still working through training drivers, which started only recently and is due for completion in November.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2025 ==

Thinking about it - it’s actually traincrew training, since the conductors have to be trained as well. Back in May Dan Tipper was quoted in Modern Railways saying that the training package was nearly ready and was about to go for approval by the trade unions.

On the other thread someone was pointing out that the summer is a bad time for training as a lot of crew are taking holidays, so the number of spare crew available for training is low. But I note that no 398s went on training runs from Taffs Well this week so either there are no crew available to train, or the training programme still hasn’t started yet.

 

[berneyarms]

What is stopping them starting to use the 398’s on say the Pontypridd to Cardiff Bay service?

They haven’t been certified for public service yet - they’re still in the testing phase.

Several sets are at Old Dalby test track presumably to iron out issues that have arisen during the testing.

 

[chargesmith]

What is stopping them starting to use the 398’s on say the Pontypridd to Cardiff Bay service?

I don't think they have regulatory approval yet?

Presumably at least some units need so much fault free running which is probably why some have been sent to Old Dalby. They only need 3 units to do the Bay - Pontypridd diagrams though.

The route testing appears to have happened (pretty sure they've been everywhere they are due to serve at least once, but unsure if they need to do this multiple times)

Then it's the driver and guard training - guessing due to summer holidays this is harder to achieve than at other times of the year.

 

[Bob Price]

Then it's the driver and guard training - guessing due to summer holidays this is harder to achieve than at other times of the year.

Yes, it's not just the people who are away it's the cover for people who are away. As someone who arranges training courses I can tell you these are the quiet months.

Back on topic, has one been down the Bay branch yet?

 

[J663738]

But they have Caerphilly to Rhymney closed for 6 weeks, surely this would free up some staff? I know training/meetings in most jobs is never done during the school holidays. But wouldn't this be an ideal time? What are the guards/driver doing who would have been roistered on this section?

(Few Bay posts on the Metro Thread)

 

[StripeyNick]

Yes, it's not just the people who are away it's the cover for people who are away. As someone who arranges training courses I can tell you these are the quiet months.

Back on topic, has one been down the Bay branch yet?

As far as I'm aware, one hasn't been down to the Bay yet. In the early days of testing, a few of the tests took them south from Taffs Well to Cardiff Central and back overnight

 

[Geeves]

From what I have learnt about traction training a lot of the training can be done entirely in the depot so that may be happening behind closed doors. A full ride out on the mainline can occur later on, also another issue is having a driver already trained on said traction so as others have said, they may well be on holiday so no pass outs

 

[MikePJ]

As far as I'm aware, one hasn't been down to the Bay yet. In the early days of testing, a few of the tests took them south from Taffs Well to Cardiff Central and back overnight

I would imagine that compatibility testing for the Bay line will take place in late September and October once the overhead line has been energised (due for mid-September).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2025 ==

I don't think they have regulatory approval yet?

Presumably at least some units need so much fault free running which is probably why some have been sent to Old Dalby. They only need 3 units to do the Bay - Pontypridd diagrams though.

The route testing appears to have happened (pretty sure they've been everywhere they are due to serve at least once, but unsure if they need to do this multiple times)

Then it's the driver and guard training - guessing due to summer holidays this is harder to achieve than at other times of the year.

The quote from Dan Tipper in May was:

Two units have achieved well over 3,500 miles of fault-free running and the other units would need to achieve 1,500 miles each, he said. “What then follows is finalising the driver training package and agreeing that with our trade union partners and then we implement the training programme.”

If they've got to cycle through getting them all to 1,500 miles, then that's (36 units - 2 that were tested to 3,500 = 34 units x 1500 miles = ) 51,000 miles of testing to be driven before the units can all be ready for service

 

[MrCheeseGrater]

Yesterday I spotted some Class 398 carriages in the middle of Coryton/J32 roundabout. An unexpected but welcome sight.

 

[Mr T]

Yesterday I spotted some Class 398 carriages in the middle of Coryton/J32 roundabout. An unexpected but welcome sight.

Probably 398029 as I saw it being unloaded today.

 

[ExRes]

398019 arrived at Derby Litchurch Lane today for the Greatest Gathering off RailAdventure 1155 6Q39 from Old Dalby

 

[tfw756rider]

398019 arrived at Derby Litchurch Lane today for the Greatest Gathering off RailAdventure 1155 6Q39 from Old Dalby

Great event, but did any other attendees (I went on Friday the 1/8/25) find it a bit strange and disappointing that the 398 was just all locked up (still attached to the vehicles it was delivered between) and unaccompanied by any staff? Seemed a bit pointless to me.

I went in Greater Anglia 720568 (I've only travelled on their 755s) and Watercress Line 150231 (in which I cabbed my first unit, adding to my previous three locomotives - two on Network Rail tracks and one at Crewe Heritage Centre), but I was hoping to also go in Transport for Wales 398019, but no.

I did hear that some of my fellow "modern train fans" were "disappointed" that a 197 didn't end up going , but I'm not bothered by that, because I've been on 45 of those, but not in any 398s.

 

[BillStampy]

Great event, but did any other attendees (I went on Friday the 1/8/25) find it a bit strange and disappointing that the 398 was just all locked up (still attached to the vehicles it was delivered between) and unaccompanied by any staff? Seemed a bit pointless to me.

I was personally hoping to go in and take a look inside of what will become the norm around Cardiff, which is relatively significant for me given my proximity to it! It was quite disappointing to see it a bit neglected amongst the others. Especially with it's rather poor reputation for passengers on the Cardiff valleys from news articles constantly giving only the negative "lack of toilets" banter.

 

[John R]

I couldn't even find it, despite looking quite hard. On the plus side I had a very interesting conversation with a guy from Amey about the SW Metro project.

 

[BillStampy]

I couldn't even find it, despite looking quite hard

It was hidden between the 125 Group HST and the Pendolino, so quite well hidden between the two big ones!

 

[tfw756rider]

I was personally hoping to go in and take a look inside of what will become the norm around Cardiff, which is relatively significant for me given my proximity to it! It was quite disappointing to see it a bit neglected amongst the others. Especially with it's rather poor reputation for passengers on the Cardiff valleys from news articles constantly giving only the negative "lack of toilets" banter.

Yeah it was weird. The closest thing to a Transport for Wales (TfW) staff member I saw was a guy with the TfW uniform top on who I overheard saying to the guy he was with how much he liked 37s or something.

Only a few months until the 398s supposedly start to enter service anyway?

 

[John R]

Yeah it was weird. The closest thing to a Transport for Wales (TfW) staff member I saw was a guy with the TfW uniform top on who I overheard saying to the guy he was with how much he liked 37s or something.

Now there's a thought if TfW are struggling for units before the 398s are rolled out. Top and tailed 37s to Rhymney anyone? You know it makes sense...

 

[BillStampy]

Now there's a thought if TfW are struggling for units before the 398s are rolled out. Top and tailed 37s to Rhymney anyone? You know it makes sense...

Give me my top and tailed 37s to Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Cheltenham and then we have a deal, you can keep the 231s in that case

 

[Jacob Porrett]

398019 at Derby on Friday. My photo.

 

[tfw756rider]

398019 at Derby on Friday. My photo.

Thanks for sharing. Doesn't show much though.

(I'm not saying your photo's bad, it isn't - there literally isn't much to see. Just the 398 all locked up and still coupled to another vehicle and strangely, disappointingly and kind-of-pointlessly "dumped" there).

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Thanks for sharing. Doesn't show much though.

(I'm not saying your photo's bad, it isn't - there literally isn't much to see. Just the 398 all locked up and still coupled to another vehicle and strangely "dumped" there).

Just normal 197 seats inside by the looks of it.

 

[tfw756rider]

Just normal 197 seats inside by the looks of it.

Yeah I've seen interior photos, still a shame we couldn't go in it though.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Yeah I've seen interior photos, still a shame we couldn't go in it though.

No. Would have been nice. Nevermind. It's off to Old Dalby tomorrow anyway.

 

[positron]

Interesting that they all have the yellow fronts on now. Id be very curious for the store on what happened there. Seems very weird to arrive with white fronts and then decide oh that's not legal.

 

[AdamWW]

Interesting that they all have the yellow fronts on now. Id be very curious for the store on what happened there. Seems very weird to arrive with white fronts and then decide oh that's not legal.

It doesn't seem that weird to me in the context of how the whole South Wales Metro programme has worked out.

 

[800001]

Interesting that they all have the yellow fronts on now. Id be very curious for the store on what happened there. Seems very weird to arrive with white fronts and then decide oh that's not legal.

It looks to be a temporary issue , looking at the unit on display at Derby at the weekend, the yellow is a piece of vinyl stuck on, it doesn't even cover all the grey on the piece it is stuck on.

Isn't it just a case of the lights need modifying? Maybe a stronger, brighter bulb?

 

[MikePJ]

It looks to be a temporary issue , looking at the unit on display at Derby at the weekend, the yellow is a piece of vinyl stuck on, it doesn't even cover all the grey on the piece it is stuck on.

Isn't it just a case of the lights need modifying? Maybe a stronger, brighter bulb?

I saw something somewhere recently that was saying that the issue was that it isn’t currently possible to fit lights that comply with both rail and road regulations. The removal of yellow ends on rail vehicles is only allowed if extra-bright lights are used, but these presumably would dazzle drivers on the road, so until the rail regs can be updated to allow a lighting arrangement that also works on the road, they’re reverted to the older rules for rail vehicles that require a yellow panel.

 

[Envoy]

I saw something somewhere recently that was saying that the issue was that it isn’t currently possible to fit lights that comply with both rail and road regulations. The removal of yellow ends on rail vehicles is only allowed if extra-bright lights are used, but these presumably would dazzle drivers on the road, so until the rail regs can be updated to allow a lighting arrangement that also works on the road, they’re reverted to the older rules for rail vehicles that require a yellow panel.

Wonder why they can’t have 2 beams - just like cars?

 

[Roger B]

Wonder why they can’t have 2 beams - just like cars?

They probably could - it just wasn't in the specification.

And a suitable bulb / light cluster may be a different size / shape to the existing light, meaning more significant modification to the front. Then there's fitting a switch to the driver's console, with related driver training. Or they could install balises for automated light switch-over - and on board IT sensors plus changes to the IT.

So it's doable, over time, but not sounding particularly cheap!

 

[800001]

They probably could - it just wasn't in the specification.

And a suitable bulb / light cluster may be a different size / shape to the existing light, meaning more significant modification to the front. Then there's fitting a switch to the driver's console, with related driver training. Or they could install balises for automated light switch-over - and on board IT sensors plus changes to the IT.

So it's doable, over time, but not sounding particularly cheap!

When are these units due to do street running?