TfW Class 170's

[hobbm013]

Just spoken to a mate of mine who works for TfW. He says the 170s ain't suited to Ebbw Vale line route with all the stop starts.
They lose time due to their poorer acceleration.
It has been mentioned that they may move on to the Marches line.(talks in progress he says)
Having problems with the mk4s as well,and Arriva want the mk3s back soon as they will be going to Chiltern.
There maybe the temporary loss of the loco hauled diagrams in the new year being replaced by units until the mk4s are ready.

Do Arriva own the MK3s then?

 

[Caaardiff]

I may be wrong, but isn't the whole reason the Mk3's are going is because they aren't PRM compliant? If they are going to Chiltern, will they be getting modifications done?

 

[PHILIPE]

I may be wrong, but isn't the whole reason the Mk3's are going is because they aren't PRM compliant? If they are going to Chiltern, will they be getting modifications done?

I think you are commenting on a rumour here. The Mark IIIs are being replaced at some stage by more modern stock (Mark IVs) and derogation until that time iis granted for Mar IIIs (May 2020 hopefully). Anyway this is the 170 thread.

 

[Chris217]

I'll believe this only if and when it happens. Another "My mate said" story perhaps.

Its came from a reliable source that's why I thought I'd share this with you.
but yes,perhaps seeing is believing if you ain't prepared to believe until then.

Yes the mk3s are going to Chiltern.
And are owned by Arriva Traincare.

 

[Chris217]

Does anyone have the reliability rating of the 170s on the Ebbw Vales services.

 

[PHILIPE]

Its came from a reliable source that's why I thought I'd share this with you.
but yes,perhaps seeing is believing if you ain't prepared to believe until then.

Yes the mk3s are going to Chiltern.
And are owned by Arriva Traincare.

I regard a reliable source as being somebody who is personally actively involved in the dealings or at the top of the ladder. Regarding 170s and frequent calls, they have been making them in the Central Belt of Scotland for years and on the Chase Line until recent electrification also for years. They are now also frequent on the Harrogate.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I regard a reliable source as being somebody who is personally actively involved in the dealings or at the top of the ladder. Regarding 170s and frequent calls, they have been making them in the Central Belt of Scotland for years and on the Chase Line until recent electrification also for years. They are now also frequent on the Harrogate.

And burning fuel like it's going out of fashion as a result of barely getting out of first gear!

 

[craigybagel]

I regard a reliable source as being somebody who is personally actively involved in the dealings or at the top of the ladder. Regarding 170s and frequent calls, they have been making them in the Central Belt of Scotland for years and on the Chase Line until recent electrification also for years. They are now also frequent on the Harrogate.

And burning fuel like it's going out of fashion as a result of barely getting out of first gear!

Indeed. There has been lots of talk within the industry about how bad for the units constantly doing that kind of work actually was.

That said, even on the Ebbw Vale run the units do get a chance to blast the cobwebs out when they get on to the mainline at Ebbw Junction. The linespeed from there to Cardiff is 95 for 170s - although I don't know if 170s can actually attain that speed in that distance. They also get some chances to stretch their legs on the Cheltenham runs and Cardiff - Bridgend is 80 max IIRC.

It's been rumoured since before they even entered service at TfW that they'd end up on the Marches. I would be surprised if it happened any time soon though - it would be very difficult to happen without Crewe getting trained on them and the drivers there have enough on their plate with MKIV training without another stock being added on top, especially as Chester will be busy with 230 training and those two projects alone I would expect to tie up a lot of resources in the North for the next while.

 

[Chris217]

As stated earlier,my friend works at TfW so would know more than anyone who doesnt.
He isn't a made up person,and wouldn't appreciate being called so just because of someone's disbelief of my post..
So that would be a more reliable source than a so called mates story!
If everyone's posts are put into question,why do we bother sharing?
I just thought it would be of interest to those who follow the subject.
In my personal opinion,the 170s would be better placed on the Marches working alongside 175s and mk4s.
Staff training obviously needs to take place before though,that is understandable.
Keep all the 150s in the south 153s and 158s in the north and mid Wales.
170s and 175s on long distance Marches express services.
Looks like 153s on the Bidstons,are a no go atm as well....according to my mate.

 

[krus_aragon]

As stated earlier,my friend works at TfW so would know more than anyone who doesnt.

Granetd, but there are at least two recent posters on this thread who work at TfW as well. So when accounts differ, there may have been some crossed wires somewhere.

I didn't notice anyone suggesting that your friend was "made up". There was concern raised about how accurate your friend's source of information is. The trouble is that it's hard to tell when you're several steps from the original source (I'm at least three steps away, via you.)

Much of what you say correlates with what I've read and heard elsewhere, and other parts sound like they may be true, or at least sensible conjecture. Even if it's mess-room talk, I find it interesting to hear what sort of things are being discussed around the table by those at the coalface. Thank you.

 

[Caaardiff]

One thing can be certain recently. No-one except those at the top knows exactly what is going to happen. FACT.
There has been so many rumours and suggestions from different parts of the business of what's coming, many of which haven't actually happened.
So although your friend may believe its reliable information, I for one will be awaiting something official before believing it's going to happen.

 

[krus_aragon]

No-one except those at the top knows exactly what is going to happen.

And even they'll have to change their mind if circumstances change!

 

[anamyd]

Do Arriva own the MK3s then?

Yes, TfW Rail are borrowing them. I knew that the DVTs were owned by Arriva UK Trains, but as some people incorrectly refer to the Mk3+DVT sets as "DVTs" I guess they meant the Mk3s as well. I believe that Gerald's previous Mk2s were also owned outright.

 

[PHILIPE]

As stated earlier,my friend works at TfW so would know more than anyone who doesnt.
He isn't a made up person,and wouldn't appreciate being called so just because of someone's disbelief of my post..
So that would be a more reliable source than a so called mates story!
If everyone's posts are put into question,why do we bother sharing?
I just thought it would be of interest to those who follow the subject.
In my personal opinion,the 170s would be better placed on the Marches working alongside 175s and mk4s.
Staff training obviously needs to take place before though,that is understandable.
Keep all the 150s in the south 153s and 158s in the north and mid Wales.
170s and 175s on long distance Marches express services.
Looks like 153s on the Bidstons,are a no go atm as well....according to my mate.

Thanks very much for your post here but firstly I should say I am not disbelieving the contents of your post but querying the reliability of your source, who I am not criticising, as experience shows that such information can turn out to be "fake news" so that is why I prefer to wait until the TOC has confirmed details. Not everybody who works for a TOC knows what may be planned for certain but some may turn out to be correct in the end. Earlier in the year the Forum was full of "when the 144s come from Northern" to the TOC and that included people who worked for the TOC but it never happened and, although it might have been considered, there was never anything definite. The rumour just spread and spread and so much so that many many people believed it. Quite often people in the know would not divulge some information, due to confidentiality and risking landing themselves in trouble. Keep the chat coming by all means but just separate possibilities from definites.
One thing that is correct is that 153s are not working the Bidstons perhaps because somebody told the powers to be of their performance over the route when they previously worked over it.

 

[anamyd]

There were moves, 5Z70 and 5Z71, planned yesterday evening from Canton/Cardiff Cen to Landore to work 4 x 170s to Store/stable due to space at Canton and a vastly reduced service over the holiday period due to the switch on at Cardiff. They didn't appear to run though due to TFWs new terminology "Resource availability" something to be expected I suppose in view of their cancellation figure which had prevailed since Friday.

Just been linked these:

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y93348/2020-01-02/detailed - 5N02 0427 Landore T.M.D. to Ebbw Vale Town

and

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V15721/2020-01-02/detailed 5Z70 0652 Landore T.M.D. to Cardiff Canton Sidings

 

[Eccles1983]

Thanks very much for your post here but firstly I should say I am not disbelieving the contents of your post but querying the reliability of your source, who I am not criticising, as experience shows that such information can turn out to be "fake news" so that is why I prefer to wait until the TOC has confirmed details. Not everybody who works for a TOC knows what may be planned for certain but some may turn out to be correct in the end. Earlier in the year the Forum was full of "when the 144s come from Northern" to the TOC and that included people who worked for the TOC but it never happened and, although it might have been considered, there was never anything definite. The rumour just spread and spread and so much so that many many people believed it. Quite often people in the know would not divulge some information, due to confidentiality and risking landing themselves in trouble. Keep the chat coming by all means but just separate possibilities from definites.
One thing that is correct is that 153s are not working the Bidstons perhaps because somebody told the powers to be of their performance over the route when they previously worked over it.

The 153's were tested again over the route. Doubled up, and worked as if in service.

It lost an extraordinary amount of time and is simply unviable without a massive timetable change.

 

[craigybagel]

Something I feel I should add - even those of us who work for TfW don't really know much of what's happening with the fleet plans. And I won't believe anything is happening for definite until the day comes that I'm actually being paid to be in the driving seat of whatever new traction it is

One point I will make though, that I've made several times before; TfW have shown themselves to be a lot more flexible then their predecessors when it comes to fleet planning - many things have already turned out different to how they were planned originally, so I would never rule out anything at this stage. And there have been much weirder rumours doing the rounds then the idea of 170s coming to the Marches.

 

[Caaardiff]

One point I will make though, that I've made several times before; TfW have shown themselves to be a lot more flexible then their predecessors when it comes to fleet planning - many things have already turned out different to how they were planned originally, so I would never rule out anything at this stage. And there have been much weirder rumours doing the rounds then the idea of 170s coming to the Marches.

I don't disagree with that statement, however what I would say is Arriva never needed to worry about it, because of the Franchise end and that it was never really required of them to do anything about it. Although some might argue that they could've got through the PRM modifications quicker that would've helped avoid some of this mess by having all of the fleet ready. It still doesn't deter from the fact that the 769's and 230's have been a complete disaster that TfW have inherited, through no fault of Arriva's, it's just been bad luck. Currently TfW have to be flexible through desperation, not through good planning. There's a bunch of 153's recently added that haven't entered service yet, there's the debacle with the ex GWR 153's and internal cab modifications required meaning they can only be used on certain routes, the 170's haven't been as reliable as expected and I don't believe all of them are actually in service yet. Also the training hasn't been fully completed causing rostering nightmares and the situation of train crew shortages in general over Christmas.
Whilst on the topic of Christmas, why anyone high up in the Railway thinks a major timetable change BEFORE Christmas is a good idea, needs to take a long hard look at the farcical issues experienced across the entire countries network over the past few weeks. The volume of cancellations on most TOC's due to lack of train crew, mixed in with an increase in most TOC's services with the new timetable was a recipe for disaster, and it's only the travelling public that have suffered.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Whilst on the topic of Christmas, why anyone high up in the Railway thinks a major timetable change BEFORE Christmas is a good idea, needs to take a long hard look at the farcical issues experienced across the entire countries network over the past few weeks. The volume of cancellations on most TOC's due to lack of train crew, mixed in with an increase in most TOC's services with the new timetable was a recipe for disaster, and it's only the travelling public that have suffered.

It's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't, I guess. By having the timetable changes in December and May training takes place at a time of high staff availability. Would you really be able to roster staff for training over the summer school holidays and Christmas break, the two parts of the year where all employers feel staffing pressures?

 

[Caaardiff]

The introduction of the 170s are separate to the timetable change. The 170s could've been gradually introduced into the route in December as planned regardless of the timetable change. The issue with the timetable change was a fair few cancellations due to sickness and understandably people not wanting the overtime so close to christmas mixed in with an increase of services really pushed staff availability to the limit. That would've happened regardless of 170 introductions. Everything coupled together though was a recipe for disaster.

 

[DannyMich2018]

It's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't, I guess. By having the timetable changes in December and May training takes place at a time of high staff availability. Would you really be able to roster staff for training over the summer school holidays and Christmas break, the two parts of the year where all employers feel staffing pressures?

I've thought it was silly having a big timetable change not long before Christmas, the weather can be poor, it's dark and horrible, staff sickness can be high, the railways are just about got over the leaf fall period- just look at the amount of operators even from that first day of the change who've struggled to run a full weekend timetable, even with disruption on weekdays too.

 

[anamyd]

My list of passenger service status for the TfW 170s currently says this:

Last in TfW passenger service:

2/1/20: 170273, 170202, 170208
30/12/19: 170272
16/12/19: 170201, 170207
never, delivered: 170270, 170203, 170204, 170206
never, awaiting delivery: 170205
never, delivery due 3/20-4/20: 170271

If anyone knows differently to this I'd appreciate being corrected, thanks

Edit 30/12/19: I've just found this: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K06044/2020-01-04/detailed - 1418 Tyseley T.M.D. to Barton Under Needwood Rsmd pathed as a 170. Could this be 170205 (having gone back to Tyseley at some point) or a 170 of a different operator...?

 

[Mrs. Fortescue]

170272 Was out yesterday doing a Bridgend > Maesteg shuttle.

 

[Jez]

Im hoping to travel on a 170 on Saturday, most likely on a Cardiff to Bridgend/Maesteg service. This is probably a long shot given the current situation and things changing on a daily basis but which Maesteg services are they likely to turn up on?

 

[Bikeman78]

Im hoping to travel on a 170 on Saturday, most likely on a Cardiff to Bridgend/Maesteg service. This is probably a long shot given the current situation and things changing on a daily basis but which Maesteg services are they likely to turn up on?

Quite a few run through from Holyhead on Saturdays so avoid those.

 

[Anonymous10]

Any news where they will move when we get the new trains just wondering

 

[anamyd]

Any news where they will move when we get the new trains just wondering

Supposedly West Wales lines, Heart of Wales line (!) and Shrewsbury-Crewes.

Only 3 170s were out today - 170202 was back out and 170273 and 170208. They were working 4 routes from Cardiff Central though - Gloucester, Maesteg, Ebbw Vale Town and the Bridgend only. The external displays were either working intermittently or not all; I only saw them briefly display Ebbw Vale Town and Maesteg. The internal screens do seem to be working properly though - does anyone know if the automated announcements are working...? Also have they got the WiFi to work...?

 

[Anonymous10]

Supposedly West Wales lines, Heart of Wales line (!) and Shrewsbury-Crewes.

Only 3 170s were out today - 170202 was back out and 170273 and 170208. They were working 4 routes from Cardiff Central though - Gloucester, Maesteg, Ebbw Vale Town and the Bridgend only. The external displays were either working intermittently or not all; I only saw them briefly display Ebbw Vale Town and Maesteg. The internal screens do seem to be working properly though - does anyone know if the automated announcements are working...? Also have they got the WiFi to work...?

So presumably it will operate on the Pembroke Dock branch any idea if it will be 2 170s or 170 and something else

 

[PHILIPE]

So presumably it will operate on the Pembroke Dock branch any idea if it will be 2 170s or 170 and something else

No idea at this early stage but wont be 2x170s

 

[Anonymous10]

No idea at this early stage but wont be 2x170s

Well Pembroke Dock to Swansea is 2.5 hours on a 150 don't see it much faster on a 170 and a tour hour service is quite basic so I'd hope that they will find another train somewhere to operate the route but it's a shame the 158s are leaving they would be great regional trains/ back ups if there's a problem on the longer distance