TFW Class 158/175 future

[D365]

Could the class 175's have their couplings changed to Dellner Couplings

I don't think @TT-ONR-NRN was agreeing with you suggestion to transfer the 175s to Southern...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Might want to check your post!

Oh I've just realised what you meant.

You say that, but there are 27 and Southern had 20 175s until recently, ten of which were four carriages and no 175 is that long. It's not that much of a surplus on what Southern had before the former ScotRail units started to head for EMR.

Should say 171s, yes. Thanks.

 

[RobShipway]

Oh I've just realised what you meant.

Should say 171s, yes. Thanks.

I believe all of the four car units have now been converted to three car units or are to be reformed as three car units. So having three car 175 units, would make no difference to having three car 171 units accept as to where the doors are located. Southern would not require the 11 class 175/0 units, only the 16 class 175/1 units.

 

[D365]

I believe all of the four car units have now been converted to three car units or are to be reformed as three car units. So having three car 175 units, would make no difference to having three car 171 units accept as to where the doors are located. Southern would not require the 11 class 175/0 units, only the 16 class 175/1 units.

I wasn’t aware that the 171s to remain with Southern are also being reformed.

In any case, what does moving the 175s solve?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

In any case, what does moving the 175s solve?

It doesn't do anything other than cause dwell issues at East Croydon and irritate first class passengers.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

TfW are negotiating a 2 year lease extension to the cl158s on reality this will take the units to 35 years and their natural end of life.

 

[RobShipway]

I wasn’t aware that the 171s to remain with Southern are also being reformed.

In any case, what does moving the 175s solve?

Yes, all are to be reformed to three carriage units by December 2022.

It doesn't do anything other than cause dwell issues at East Croydon and irritate first class passengers.

Passengers will be just as irritated when their train just turns up as a three coach class 171, as they would if it is a class 175 unit.

There is six of the 10 class 171/7 units to be reformed to be three car units with the centre cars coming from the class 171/8's. So basically Southern are going to have 14 three car units and two, two car units.

Where on some routes you had a 4 car unit and a two car unit doing a service, you my just have a three car unit if you are lucky.

I agree that the class 175 units are not ideal for Southern, but in the market what choices do Southern have when it comes to stock? If they where to use new stock, then that should have been ordered over 2 years ago.

 

[43096]

There is six of the 10 class 171/7 units to be reformed to be three car units with the centre cars coming from the class 171/8's. So basically Southern are going to have 14 three car units and two, two car units.

Your maths has gone awry.

If 6 of the 10 171/7s get lengthened (which is the case) then they have 4 x 2-cars and 12 x 3-cars, assuming 171201 goes to EMR.

 

[43102EMR]

Yes, all are to be reformed to three carriage units by December 2022.


Passengers will be just as irritated when their train just turns up as a three coach class 171, as they would if it is a class 175 unit.

There is six of the 10 class 171/7 units to be reformed to be three car units with the centre cars coming from the class 171/8's. So basically Southern are going to have 14 three car units and two, two car units.

Where on some routes you had a 4 car unit and a two car unit doing a service, you my just have a three car unit if you are lucky.

I agree that the class 175 units are not ideal for Southern, but in the market what choices do Southern have when it comes to stock? If they where to use new stock, then that should have been ordered over 2 years ago.

Southern have 17 171s (including 201, which by this time next year is expected to move to EMR as with the other ex-SR units). 6 are /8s and 10 are /7s. 6 /7s will get an additional centre carriage, meaning there will be 12 /8s (3 car) and 4 /7s (2 car) once the reform program is complete.

 

[Energy]

I agree that the class 175 units are not ideal for Southern, but in the market what choices do Southern have when it comes to stock? If they where to use new stock, then that should have been ordered over 2 years ago.

They can just keep the 12 3 car and 4 2 car 171s...

 

[MattRat]

They can just keep the 12 3 car and 4 2 car 171s...

I think the commenter's idea was to cascade them somewhere else.

 

[RobShipway]

I think the commenter's idea was to cascade them somewhere else.

Yes, most likely that they will also be going to EMR.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes, most likely that they will also be going to EMR.

No, most likely that they will stay with Southern.

 

[Xavi]

TfW are negotiating a 2 year lease extension to the cl158s on reality this will take the units to 35 years and their natural end of life.

Actual could turn out to be a lot longer than natural, especially for 158/9.

 

[43102EMR]

Actual could turn out to be a lot longer than natural, especially for 158/9.

Personally I’ve found the 158/159 design to be a lot more modern and robust compared to other BR stock built around the same time, such as the 166s and 321s, especially after their various refurbishments.

 

[Xavi]

Personally I’ve found the 158/159 design to be a lot more modern and robust compared to other BR stock built around the same time, such as the 166s and 321s, especially after their various refurbishments.

Couldn’t agree more. From a passenger perspective they are fantastic whether Barnstaple to Exeter or Waterloo to Exeter.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Actual could turn out to be a lot longer than natural, especially for 158/9.

The 158/159 fleet being Aluminium does have a finite life period. Scotrail are already starting to have huge issues with cracking on their oldest units. Structurally 158s are not in a brilliant way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2022 ==

Personally I’ve found the 158/159 design to be a lot more modern and robust compared to other BR stock built around the same time, such as the 166s and 321s, especially after their various refurbishments.

Certainly not robust from a structures point of view. Yes they will be able to exceed their design life but won’t be able to go on for ever like steel stock without vast expenditure.

 

[Energy]

No, most likely that they will stay with Southern.

Indeed, the transfer to EMR was on the condition Southern found a suitable replacement when battery electrostars were heavily rumoured.

 

[Xavi]

The 158/159 fleet being Aluminium does have a finite life period. Scotrail are already starting to have huge issues with cracking on their oldest units. Structurally 158s are not in a brilliant way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2022 ==



Certainly not robust from a structures point of view. Yes they will be able to exceed their design life but won’t be able to go on for ever like steel stock without vast expenditure.

Point taken, however, my guess is there’ll still be plenty operating at 40+ years of service in the 2030s.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

Personally I’ve found the 158/159 design to be a lot more modern and robust compared to other BR stock built around the same time, such as the 166s and 321s, especially after their various refurbishments.

Yes. The refurbished 158s are fine. I'd be happy to see them continue at TfW untill end of economic life.

 

[317 forever]

As EMR were not expecting to keep Nottingham - Liverpool services and would be unable to source extra class 170s for these, I wonder whether they could take 175s for these services instead?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

As EMR were not expecting to keep Nottingham - Liverpool services and would be unable to source extra class 170s for these, I wonder whether they could take 175s for these services instead?

EMR are retaining 158s for the Nottingham to Norwich services, it is no longer planned to be split into two separate services.

 

[43102EMR]

EMR are retaining 158s for the Nottingham to Norwich services, it is no longer planned to be split into two separate services.

I thought it was to be split, with Nottingham to Norwich extended to Derby? Or has this changed now?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I thought it was to be split, with Nottingham to Norwich extended to Derby? Or has this changed now?

It’s now being retained as per current operations. It was going to be split when part of the route was going to move to another TOC.

 

[43102EMR]

It’s now being retained as per current operations. It was going to be split when part of the route was going to move to another TOC.

Fair enough - my understanding was that even though EMR are retaining it, it’s still going to be split at Nottingham, with the Norwich portion being extended to Derby.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Fair enough - my understanding was that even though EMR are retaining it, it’s still going to be split at Nottingham, with the Norwich portion being extended to Derby.

The last update from EMR were they were just going to leave it alone as it currently is. That was from their MD in a recent Modern Railways.

 

[43102EMR]

The last update from EMR were they were just going to leave it alone as it currently is. That was from their MD in a recent Modern Railways.

Ah no worries, many thanks for confirming!

 

[Philip]

These look like being possible 175 diagrams for Manchester-South Wales from December:

Crewe CS-Crewe, 06:29 Crewe-Manchester, 07:30 Manchester-Carmarthen, 13:01 Carmarthen-Cardiff, 15:44 Cardiff-Milford Haven, 19:15 Milford Haven-Cardiff, 22:18 Cardiff-Carmarthen.

05:45 Carmarthen-Manchester, 11:30 Manchester-Carmarthen, 16:55 Carmarthen-Cardiff, 20:05 Cardiff-Manchester, ECS Manchester-Crewe CS

04:25 Holyhead-Cardiff, 10:07 Cardiff-Milford Haven, 13:00 Milford Haven-Manchester, 20:30 Manchester-Cardiff

07:45 Cardiff-Milford Haven, 11:03 Milford Haven-Manchester, 17:30 Manchester-Cardiff, 21:15 Cardiff-Chester.

13:46 Cardiff-Milford Haven, 17:11 Milford Haven-Cardiff, 20:34 Cardiff-Ebbw Vale, 21:39 Ebbw Vale-Cardiff.

05:39 Cardiff-Manchester, 09:30 Manchester-Carmarthen, 15:01 Carmarthen-Cardiff, 17:47 Cardiff-Milford Haven, 20:41 Milford Haven-Carmarthen.

Carmarthen-Milford Haven, 07:01 Milford Haven-Manchester, 13:30 Manchester-Tenby, 20:10 Tenby-Cardiff, 23:07 Cardiff-Ebbw Vale, Ebbw Vale-Cardiff.

05:35 Cardiff-Milford Haven, 09:08 Milford Haven-Manchester, 15:30 Manchester-Carmarthen

Carmarthen-Fishguard, 07:51 Fishguard Harbour-Cardiff, 11:47 Cardiff-Milford Haven, 15:07 Milford Haven-Manchester, 21:35 Manchester-Shrewsbury

04:25 Holyhead-Cardiff, 10:07 Cardiff-Milford Haven, 13:00 Milford Haven-Manchester, 19:30 Manchester-Cardiff

---------------

Don't know which ones will be 2 and which ones will be 3 car sets. I don't think they're all accurate either; the 20:30 Manchester-Cardiff doesn't have an inbound DMU working, so just assuming it will be as part of a double set off the 13:00 arrival an hour earlier.

 

[RobShipway]

These look like being possible 175 diagrams for Manchester-South Wales from December:

Crewe CS-Crewe, 06:29 Crewe-Manchester, 07:30 Manchester-Carmarthen, 13:01 Carmarthen-Cardiff, 15:44 Cardiff-Milford Haven, 19:15 Milford Haven-Cardiff, 22:18 Cardiff-Carmarthen.

05:45 Carmarthen-Manchester, 11:30 Manchester-Carmarthen, 16:55 Carmarthen-Cardiff, 20:05 Cardiff-Manchester, ECS Manchester-Crewe CS

04:25 Holyhead-Cardiff, 10:07 Cardiff-Milford Haven, 13:00 Milford Haven-Manchester, 20:30 Manchester-Cardiff

07:45 Cardiff-Milford Haven, 11:03 Milford Haven-Manchester, 17:30 Manchester-Cardiff, 21:15 Cardiff-Chester.

13:46 Cardiff-Milford Haven, 17:11 Milford Haven-Cardiff, 20:34 Cardiff-Ebbw Vale, 21:39 Ebbw Vale-Cardiff.

05:39 Cardiff-Manchester, 09:30 Manchester-Carmarthen, 15:01 Carmarthen-Cardiff, 17:47 Cardiff-Milford Haven, 20:41 Milford Haven-Carmarthen.

Carmarthen-Milford Haven, 07:01 Milford Haven-Manchester, 13:30 Manchester-Tenby, 20:10 Tenby-Cardiff, 23:07 Cardiff-Ebbw Vale, Ebbw Vale-Cardiff.

05:35 Cardiff-Milford Haven, 09:08 Milford Haven-Manchester, 15:30 Manchester-Carmarthen

Carmarthen-Fishguard, 07:51 Fishguard Harbour-Cardiff, 11:47 Cardiff-Milford Haven, 15:07 Milford Haven-Manchester, 21:35 Manchester-Shrewsbury

04:25 Holyhead-Cardiff, 10:07 Cardiff-Milford Haven, 13:00 Milford Haven-Manchester, 19:30 Manchester-Cardiff

---------------

Don't know which ones will be 2 and which ones will be 3 car sets. I don't think they're all accurate either; the 20:30 Manchester-Cardiff doesn't have an inbound DMU working, so just assuming it will be as part of a double set off the 13:00 arrival an hour earlier.

How do you know that they are not class 158 or class 197 possible workings?

 

[Philip]

How do you know that they are not class 158 or class 197 possible workings?

They won't be class 197s because route clearance hasn't yet been done and most of the traincrew for these routes aren't trained on them yet. Why would 158s be rostered onto Manchester-South Wales in place of 175s? No 175s will have left TfW come the December timetable change so it's feasible that all or the vast majority of the above diagrams will be 175s, initially.