TfW cancellation policy

[trainophile]

I was (apparently incorrectly) advised this morning by TPE who I had booked through that my journey between Hereford and Newport on Monday 26th June at 08:11 is cancelled.

The details said tickets are valid “on the next train”. This is no good to me as my ticket is a through Advance to Taunton, where I’m booked to board the direct Paddington to Paignton train, meeting a friend who is coming up from London on it.

I messaged TfW to ask if I could get the 07:48 from HFD, to be told no, only the one after not before.

After an “exchange of views” where I explained my situation and said it isn’t fair to make people pay for a new ticket so they can be wherever they need to be on time, and that TPE let you take a train either side of a cancellation, the final message from them was:

“Advance tickets, regardless of Train Operator are limited to the following service during cancellations. You may have received this message due to a part cancellation furhter up the train line. Your journey is unaffected. ^Joe”

This is unacceptable and ridiculous.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I was (apparently incorrectly) advised this morning by TPE who I had booked through that my journey between Hereford and Newport on Monday 26th June at 08:11 is cancelled.

The details said tickets are valid “on the next train”. This is no good to me as my ticket is a through Advance to Taunton, where I’m booked to board the direct Paddington to Paignton train, meeting a friend who is coming up from London on it.

I messaged TfW to ask if I could get the 07:48 from HFD, to be told no, only the one after not before.

After an “exchange of views” where I explained my situation and said it isn’t fair to make people pay for a new ticket so they can be wherever they need to be on time, and that TPE let you take a train either side of a cancellation, the final message from them was:

“Advance tickets, regardless of Train Operator are limited to the following service during cancellations. You may have received this message due to a part cancellation furhter up the train line. Your journey is unaffected. ^Joe”

This is unacceptable and ridiculous.

Most staff have no issue with you getting the earlier train so I very highly doubt it would be an issue.

 

[trainophile]

Most staff have no issue with you getting the earlier train so I very highly doubt it would be an issue.

Thanks, I did wonder if it was an untrained Twitter desk reply.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Thanks, I did wonder if it was an untrained Twitter desk reply.

It's always best to ask the conductor before you get on though.

 

[The exile]

Personally, I feel that a cancellation after a ticket has been purchased should by default, turn that ticket into an “anytime, any reasonable route” ticket - no questions asked.

 

[Western 52]

Personally, I feel that a cancellation after a ticket has been purchased should by default, turn that ticket into an “anytime, any reasonable route” ticket - no questions asked.

Absolutely! No passenger should have to pay more for their journey because the booked train is cancelled.

 

[trainophile]

Thanks all. Someone needs to educate TfW’s Twitter desk then.

 

[The exile]

Absolutely! No passenger should have to pay more for their journey because the booked train is cancelled.

Nor should they have faff around trying to discover whether or not their ticket is valid.

 

[Watershed]

Firstly, I can't see any evidence of the 08:11 from Hereford being cancelled on Monday. It's possible that the cancellation email was triggered by duff data from the RDG Timetable Comparator Service, which all retailers are required to use (even though it's rubbish).

That being said, if the train does end up cancelled, TfW are wrong, and not for the first time (sadly not the last time either). The Advance terms and conditions are clear:

5.2 If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

If you waited for the next train, you would be delayed as you would miss your connection. If you turn up to the station sufficiently early, the 07:48 is your next available train and so you would be entitled to catch it.

8.4 If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or is delayed and you still decide to travel, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed).

Furthermore, they'd be in breach of the obligation to make special obligations to accommodate you on another train.

Finally, they'd be in breach of the obligation to provide the service with reasonable care and skill, as required under the Consumer Rights Act.

 

[trainophile]

Here’s the email from TPE. I had no reason to doubt the information.

 

[43066]

If you waited for the next train, you would be delayed as you would miss your connection. If you turn up to the station sufficiently early, the 07:48 is your next available train and so you would be entitled to catch it.

As discussed on another thread, I’d suggest it would he equally clear to many people that “next available” means a later train, and certainly doesn’t mean you are entitled to turn up early and catch a train before the booked departure time. That also accords with the industry’s interpretation - notwithstanding that it’s often permitted in practice.

Furthermore, they'd be in breach of the obligation to make special obligations to accommodate you on another train.

Finally, they'd be in breach of the obligation to provide the service with reasonable care and skill, as required under the Consumer Rights Act.

Regarding your first sentence, it doesn’t specify which other train, so a later one could suffice. The second sentence seems a huge leap and is AFAIK untested?

The details said tickets are valid “on the next train”. This is no good to me as my ticket is a through Advance to Taunton, where I’m booked to board the direct Paddington to Paignton train, meeting a friend who is coming up from London on it.

It’s clear from the NRCoT 9.4 that, if your connecting train is delayed when you’re travelling on an advance ticket, you will be entitled to travel on a subsequent service. So your solution would be to take the next train from origin, board a subsequent Paddington to Paignton service than booked, and claim delay repay.

Obviously you might be able to ask staff to allow you to take an earlier train because your friend is on it, but arguing that you’re entitled to do this wouldn’t be correct.

 

[trainophile]

As discussed on another thread, I’d suggest it would he equally clear to many people that “next available” means a later train, and certainly doesn’t mean you are entitled to turn up early and catch a train before the booked departure time. That also accords with the industry’s interpretation - notwithstanding that it’s often permitted in practice.



Regarding your first sentence, it doesn’t specify which other train, so a later one could suffice. The second sentence seems a huge leap and is AFAIK untested?



It’s clear from the NRCoT 9.4 that, if your connecting train is delayed when you’re travelling on an advance ticket, you will be entitled to travel on a subsequent service. So your solution would be to take the next train from origin, board a subsequent Paddington to Paignton service than booked, and claim delay repay.

Obviously you might be able to ask staff to allow you to take an earlier train because your friend is on it, but arguing that you’re entitled to do this wouldn’t be correct.

Well mine is a leisure journey, but if that was applied to someone who had a hospital appointment, funeral to attend, job interview, or other pressing need to be in a certain place at a certain time then it just demonstrates that the customer is of far less importance than "the rules" as far as the railway is concerned.

I appreciate that in the majority of cases a guard would allow earlier travel in this situation, but the fact remains that it's officially a very customer unfriendly system, and yet another coffin nail in people's enjoyment of and confidence in rail travel.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jun 2023 ==

I can't help feeling that the current ruling stems from the days when cancellations were almost invariably last minute, due to mechanical failure or emergency services incident etc., such that people would already be at their departure station, and their only option would be "the next train".

Nowadays when cancellations are published days in advance it makes no sense to have this restriction in place.

 

[43066]

Well mine is a leisure journey, but if that was applied to someone who had a hospital appointment, funeral to attend, job interview, or other pressing need to be in a certain place at a certain time then it just demonstrates that the customer is of far less importance than "the rules" as far as the railway is concerned.

I appreciate that in the majority of cases a guard would allow earlier travel in this situation, but the fact remains that it's officially a very customer unfriendly system, and yet another coffin nail in people's enjoyment of and confidence in rail travel.

I’ll preface the below by stating that I’m just explaining how the system works, rather than defending it, before anyone accuses me of such!

The ticketing system isn’t supposed to be customer friendly, it’s intended to segment the market so that, if you want flexibility to take an earlier train in order to arrive earlier, you are incentivised to pay more for an open ticket.

An advance ticket means that you benefit from a cheaper price at the expense of flexibility; hence you need to be on the booked train, or a subsequent one if you’re delayed, and you then have the ability to claim compensation.

That’s the way the system is intended to work and the relevant drafting reflects that. The suggestion above that you’re entitled to board an earlier train simply isn’t correct on any ordinary reading of the conditions, and anyone trying to do do so will run into problems.

Hence the response from TPE discussed above.

 

[father_jack]

So if you get the later train as advised will GWR crew/revenue protection know your first leg was cancelled ? If it's a "P code" it won't exist visibly anywhere and if it does run you'll look silly and risk problems. Or do you go to the station in time just in case and risk sitting like a twit for an hour.....

 

[trainophile]

It was actually TfW but I muddied the waters as I bought the tickets from the TPE website so had the cancellation advice from them. Goodness knows where they got it from.

Understand your points, but doesn't it seem nonsensical that they would rather pay out delay repay than let what would be a very small proportion of travellers (most would probably be quite happy with a later train, if they knew about the cancellation beforehand) jump on a train that's going where they want to go anyway?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jun 2023 ==

So if you get the later train as advised will GWR crew/revenue protection know your first leg was cancelled ? If it's a "P code" it won't exist visibly anywhere and if it does run you'll look silly and risk problems. Or do you go to the station in time just in case and risk sitting like a twit for an hour.....

Exactly, it's a minefield. Also there isn't another direct Taunton to Paignton service until the next day that a later TfW leg would allow me to catch. Is there a valid argument that I don't want to have to change at Exeter or Newton Abbot when I specifically booked a direct train? (Edit: I beg your pardon, there is one at 16:35, i.e. 5 hours after my booked train). I'm not sure the delights of Taunton station (couldn't go far from it with luggage) would keep me entertained for that long!).

 

[sheff1]

Many TOCs prefer to pay Delay Repay (often 100%) than allow people to travel and get to ther destination with no DR entitlement. You might think the Government, who are funding said TOCs, would clamp down on such unnecessary payouts but obviously not.

 

[trainophile]

Many TOCs prefer to pay Delay Repay (often 100%) than allow people to travel and get to ther destination with no DR entitlement. You might think the Government, who are funding said TOCs, would clamp down on such unnecessary payouts but obviously not.

And then they end up putting fares up to compensate for the amount of delay repay they've had to pay out. It's nonsensical.

 

[43066]

Understand your points, but doesn't it seem nonsensical that they would rather pay out delay repay than let what would be a very small proportion of travellers (most would probably be quite happy with a later train, if they knew about the cancellation beforehand) jump on a train that's going where they want to go anyway?

Many TOCs prefer to pay Delay Repay (often 100%) than allow people to travel and get to ther destination with no DR entitlement. You might think the Government, who are funding said TOCs, would clamp down on such unnecessary payouts but obviously not.

I suppose the logic, to the extent there is any at all, is that the person who is unable to travel as flexibly as they’d like might just choose a different ticket type next time, thereby swelling the coffers.

As a rule, the railway doesn’t really do customer service, and operates on the basis that passengers will simply keep on turning up.

To be fair, they generally do…