TfW 1st class upgrades

[DelW]

I am sick of the standard plus signage still being there. I avoid it when possible. I am always on edge sat in there in case a Conductor or Transport Investigations Limited person on board checking tickets wrongly attempts to charge me. It appears the TfW Standard Plus supplements have disappeared from BR Fares at least.

Really? I always sit in there if I'm on a 197 that has SP, for the extra space. I've never had any query during a ticket check.

 

[Topological]

Really? I always sit in there if I'm on a 197 that has SP, for the extra space. I've never had any query during a ticket check.

I can imagine that unless you are 100% confident in what you KNOW to be a declassified space it could get messy IF the guard wants to charge.

I just do not know why all of this is not pointed straight at TfW for failing to do anything about the stickers. If taking them down is hard, cover them up.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I can imagine that unless you are 100% confident in what you KNOW to be a declassified space it could get messy IF the guard wants to charge.

I just do not know why all of this is not pointed straight at TfW for failing to do anything about the stickers. If taking them down is hard, cover them up.

Except that the guard can't charge, because no Standard Plus upgrade fare exists in the system.

For comparison, passengers boarding at Manchester Piccadilly generally have no problem in managing to fill the "standard plus" branded section of a 197, whereas they are generally pretty good at avoiding the First Class carriage of a Mk4 set - and the odd one of two that do sit in First with a Standard ticket generally move elsewhere with minimal fuss when you point out their error.

 

[Topological]

Except that the guard can't charge, because no Standard Plus upgrade fare exists in the system.

For comparison, passengers boarding at Manchester Piccadilly generally have no problem in managing to fill the "standard plus" branded section of a 197, whereas they are generally pretty good at avoiding the First Class carriage of a Mk4 set - and the odd one of two that do sit in First with a Standard ticket generally move elsewhere with minimal fuss when you point out their error.

Again WE know that. Normal people do not know that.

I still really struggle with how hard it would be to cover up the stickers (and that is if we accept the premise that it is really hard to take the Standard Premium stickers down)

I do agree about Piccadilly, because that is where I board most weeks. However, this is not a conversation that would be being had, or a confusion occasional line users would face, IF TfW simply corrected the stickers situation.

(I was then thinking that the big seats would put people off even if there were Standard Class stickers over the top of the premium, and especially if there were no stickers at all. However, that is on them. The current situation says "get out of this area, it is premium")

The passengers in First on the Mk4 are just chancing it, but fair play if they move. I dont think they are regular users of declassified 197s who now think the Mk4 is declassified.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Again WE know that. Normal people do not know that.

I still really struggle with how hard it would be to cover up the stickers (and that is if we accept the premise that it is really hard to take the Standard Premium stickers down)

I do agree about Piccadilly, because that is where I board most weeks. However, this is not a conversation that would be being had, or a confusion occasional line users would face, IF TfW simply corrected the stickers situation.

(I was then thinking that the big seats would put people off even if there were Standard Class stickers over the top of the premium, and especially if there were no stickers at all. However, that is on them. The current situation says "get out of this area, it is premium")

The passengers in First on the Mk4 are just chancing it, but fair play if they move. I dont think they are regular users of declassified 197s who now think the Mk4 is declassified.

Agreed that some people don't know that and may avoid the area completely. But my point is that sufficient numbers of people either know or just disregard the signage anyway, that it's presence makes next to know difference to capacity. Just about the only time I see the "standard plus" area poorly populated is when it's at the North end of a 5-car set on the Marches - and that's mainly because once you've left Piccadilly, the stopping positions and ASDO requirements mean most passengers gravitate to the front or centre of a southbound train. Things are generally better balanced on northbound trains. But we're getting off topic now.

 

[Envoy]

Perhaps in the event of a 197 standing in for a failed Mk4, they should direct only the first class passengers to use the Standard Plus accommodation and ensure that the catering staff get to them. It therefore might be useful to keep it labelled as Standard Plus?

In the event that passengers are standing on a 197 with Standard Plus having vacant seats, then those on their feet should be told to go to Standard Plus.

 

[Topological]

Agreed that some people don't know that and may avoid the area completely. But my point is that sufficient numbers of people either know or just disregard the signage anyway, that it's presence makes next to know difference to capacity. Just about the only time I see the "standard plus" area poorly populated is when it's at the North end of a 5-car set on the Marches - and that's mainly because once you've left Piccadilly, the stopping positions and ASDO requirements mean most passengers gravitate to the front or centre of a southbound train. Things are generally better balanced on northbound trains. But we're getting off topic now.

Most people who boarded at Crewe on Friday night went to the main seats and were too afraid to sit in the empty Standard Plus. The train arrived from Manchester with Standard Plus full, but a lot of people do get off the TfWs at Crewe. That is an anecdote that says the opposite. I also travelled from Chester to Manchester once and people were filling the Standard Plus at Chester so maybe you just have to be far enough North

As you say, laziness plays a part with loadings. I sit in the northernmost carriage on a northbound 5-car 197 irrespective of any Standard Plus opportunity for that reason. Southbound I tend to go for the southernmost at Piccadilly.

Essentially people will learn, but it just seems unfair not to do a simple job and remove the need to learn.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2025 ==

Perhaps in the event of a 197 standing in for a failed Mk4, they should direct only the first class passengers to use the Standard Plus accommodation and ensure that the catering staff get to them. It therefore might be useful to keep it labelled as Standard Plus?

In the event that passengers are standing on a 197 with Standard Plus having vacant seats, then those on their feet should be told to go to Standard Plus.

No thanks.

It is bad enough putting a 3-car on a 4-car* without having half of one carriage given over to first class ticket holders. The refund to first-class ticket holders is the best solution there. IF TfW are not confident in their Mk4 sets turning up then there is another answer.

4-car* in the sense that the Mk4 set is 5-car, but contains a buffet and a carriage of first class. The remaining 3.5 cars of standard seat more than 4 cars of 197. Finally, the loadings in the first class carriage are not the same as a standard class carriage. Hence for comparability there is the need to * the number.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Perhaps in the event of a 197 standing in for a failed Mk4, they should direct only the first class passengers to use the Standard Plus accommodation and ensure that the catering staff get to them. It therefore might be useful to keep it labelled as Standard Plus?

I see your thinking, but I disagree on the basis of causing confusion - and also that I'd prefer the focus to be on avoiding the need to substitute 197s for Mk4 sets in the first place.

In the event that passengers are standing on a 197 with Standard Plus having vacant seats, then those on their feet should be told to go to Standard Plus.

Any half decent should guard should really be doing that anyway. In fact, any guard should really be doing that for any standing passengers when there are any vacant seats - but people are often too stubborn to move, or apparently allergic to sitting next to a stranger, but fine to stand just as close.

 

[Haywain]

Most people who boarded at Crewe on Friday night went to the main seats and were too afraid to sit in the empty Standard Plus.

Were they afraid or could they simply not be bothered? I use Thameslink trains regularly where there is a declassified first class section but my priority when boarding a train is simply to find somewhere to sit.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Most customers don't care whether or not they can sit there - they just want a seat. It's only really people on this forum who do things like intentionally seek out seats that are essentially declassified, at least on TfW.

They aren't really suitable for families, people travelling together either etc - so people will, of course, look to move to normal standard class.

It's a very odd situation on TfW - the vast majority of people would happily pay extra to sit there, and the seats could easily be filled, especially with yield managed fares. I'm not sure why the design issues for accessibility where not fully considered when doing this. It would also resolve an issue when a loco set is swapped out.

 

[Topological]

Were they afraid or could they simply not be bothered? I use Thameslink trains regularly where there is a declassified first class section but my priority when boarding a train is simply to find somewhere to sit.

The train was completely full, some ended up standing in the aisle just through the dividing doors.

With the set up on the 197 that was used, there is one pair of doors which have Standard Plus seats towards the cab (a 2 table, 4 table and 2 individual seats) and Standard Plus seats toward the dividing doors (a 2 table and a 4 table). Hence people boarding at that pair of doors would have the choice to either sit down or go and join the people who got on at other doors in Standard.

On this occasion the Standard Plus was the front of the train, so anyone waiting towards the front (furthest from the main bridge at Crewe) would naturally join at the Standard Plus door (an aside I couldn't see the 3-car stop sign on Platform 6 for Southbound so was guestimating based on the 5+2 stop sign)

This was also why I noticed that the (1) was not showing on the platform displays when it has been doing at Piccadilly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Aug 2025 ==

Most customers don't care whether or not they can sit there - they just want a seat. It's only really people on this forum who do things like intentionally seek out seats that are essentially declassified, at least on TfW.

They aren't really suitable for families, people travelling together either etc - so people will, of course, look to move to normal standard class.

It's a very odd situation on TfW - the vast majority of people would happily pay extra to sit there, and the seats could easily be filled, especially with yield managed fares. I'm not sure why the design issues for accessibility where not fully considered when doing this. It would also resolve an issue when a loco set is swapped out.

In what way are they "not suitable"?

ALT TEXT: Image shows the layout of the TfW Standard Plus carriage. Interestingly without stickers if that helps anyone identify the exact unit.

My train on Friday had this layout, but did have stickers. It was 197121 according to RTT: 18:30 from Manchester on Friday 29th

To emphasise, people joining at those doors in the photo would sit in an available Standard Plus seat if they were looking for seats.

 

[StarCrossing]

Perhaps in the event of a 197 standing in for a failed Mk4, they should direct only the first class passengers to use the Standard Plus accommodation and ensure that the catering staff get to them. It therefore might be useful to keep it labelled as Standard Plus?

My understanding is that this area was originally planned to be 1st class, but due to the lack of space for wheelchair users that would have fallen foul of accessibility rules. Therefore, even temporarily making it available for 1st class passengers only could be problematic.

 

[Envoy]

My understanding is that this area was originally planned to be 1st class, but due to the lack of space for wheelchair users that would have fallen foul of accessibility rules. Therefore, even temporarily making it available for 1st class passengers only could be problematic.

It was never intended to be 1st class but something better than 2nd class with a relatively small upgrade fee. They then realised that this particular coach did not have an accessible toilet for those with limited mobility and therefore it would be discrimination against such people - hence the situation we have now.

 

[DaveB10780]

From the horse's mouth as it were, TfW themselves:

Fancy an upgrade?​

Where applicable, you can upgrade from a Standard Class ticket to First Class on our services. This applies to all our Standard tickets including Anytime and Advance Singles, Returns, Season tickets, and Rover and Ranger tickets.

All you need to do is let the conductor on board know that you’d like to upgrade, and they’ll confirm whether there’s space available in First Class.

Do Rover and Ranger tickets qualify with Seatfrog I wonder since part of my journey between Cardiff and Stockport would be with one. This is the infro from the Seatfrog page which seem to exclude them.

3. A Seatfrog upgrade auction offer or instant upgrade can only be used by customers and accompanying travellers on the same booking reference, with a Standard Advance, Standard Off-Peak, Standard Super Off-Peak or Standard Anytime, travelling on eligible Transport for Wales (TfW) services.

 

[Segedunum]

I am sick of the standard plus signage still being there. I avoid it when possible. I am always on edge sat in there in case a Conductor or Transport Investigations Limited person on board checking tickets wrongly attempts to charge me. It appears the TfW Standard Plus supplements have disappeared from BR Fares at least.

I did have an argument with an RPI when the section was new who merrily told me I was sitting in First and could be reported. When shown clear evidence that he was wrong, he jumped on the defensive and said I wasn't to question him as he was 'doing his job'. I did however get him to back off.

To top it all off, he then sulked back to standard and fell asleep, in uniform, with standing passengers around him. I reported him to the guard who wasn't best pleased with his antics.

 

[StarCrossing]

It was never intended to be 1st class but something better than 2nd class with a relatively small upgrade fee. They then realised that this particular coach did not have an accessible toilet for those with limited mobility and therefore it would be discrimination against such people - hence the situation we have now.

It was intended to be 1st class. Then it was intended to be standard plus, in the manner in which you describe. Neither of these ever happened, so now it's standard.

An example article is here from Modern Railways from the time they moved away from the idea of 1st class to the idea of standard plus:
https://www.modernrailways.com/article/tfw-rethinks-first-class-197s

Quote:
"Transport for Wales has modified its plans to provide First Class accommodation on 14 of its 77 Class 197 DMUs, opting for an intermediate category of seating instead."

 

[Norton Bridge]

On Saturday I took advantage of the TfW upgrade to first class in August for £10 any distance to do a return from Crewe to Cardiff Centre. It was a Mark 4 set on the way back and I was well looked after. Fortunately I hadn't wanted any hot food as there was no "travelling chef" due to staff shortages.

On the outward journey, however, a class 197 turned up. Thanks to posts on here I knew it was okay to sit in Standard Plus so no problems there. However, I had purchased the upgrade in advance from Seatfrog as I had a discount code that reduced the upgrade to £5, plus the £3 fee. The Train Manager said that I needed to claim this back from Seatfrog, but is that correct?

I am fully expecting Seatfrog and TfW to say I should claim from the other, and also to refuse to refund the £3 fee. Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic, but any guidance from the experts on here on what should happen would be very welcome.

 

[signed]

The Train Manager said that I needed to claim this back from Seatfrog, but is that correct?

Yes, as there wasn't a first class facility

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, as there wasn't a first class facility

No, the refund has to come from the train company. NRCoT condition 31.

 

[voyagerdude220]

No, the refund has to come from the train company. NRCoT condition 31.

The seatfrog website allows you to claim for a refund via their website.

https://help.seatfrog.com/hc/en-gb/requests/new?ticket_form_id=8857996746511

 

[AlterEgo]

The seatfrog website allows you to claim for a refund via their website.

https://help.seatfrog.com/hc/en-gb/requests/new?ticket_form_id=8857996746511

That is helpful but bizarre as it isn't in the NRCoT! But then that is indeed the road to go down.

 

[Norton Bridge]

The seatfrog website allows you to claim for a refund via their website.

https://help.seatfrog.com/hc/en-gb/requests/new?ticket_form_id=8857996746511

Many thanks. I'll use that.

 

[gray1404]

For the amount of space used in what was meant to be standard plus, there are very few seats and a lot of space wasted. You could fit a lot of regular standard class seats in that area and this is what I think should seriously happen to increase capacity.

 

[gazthomas]

When they were wondering what to do with Standard Plus, on getting on a 197 expecting it to be declassified I asked the guard whether it was for which I got the odd response "Expect yourself to be charged" despite me challenging the need to pay. When he came around to check tickets he did indeed charge me. I then raised the matter with TfW Customer Services who then promptly paid me but I did wonder at the time how this guard had missed the memo!

 

[John R]

For the amount of space used in what was meant to be standard plus, there are very few seats and a lot of space wasted. You could fit a lot of regular standard class seats in that area and this is what I think should seriously happen to increase capacity.

Somehow I can’t see TfW spending money reconfiguring units which are, in railway terms, brand new, to create a few more seats. I doubt it would pass the value for money test in terms of how frequently would every other seat be taken that would enable someone to sit down who wouldn’t otherwise have been able to.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Probably more speculative, but given the overall success of first class and positive reception it has had generally on TfW, I suspect there will be more of a reconfiguration of where it is located rather than removal, although not for a while.

The concern about branding it first class was twofold - one about differences between first class on loco hauled and units, and second, having the limited seats occupied by (mainly retired) first class staff travel facility holders who aren't required to give up their seat, but cannot sit in standard plus/premium.

 

[hexagon789]

For the amount of space used in what was meant to be standard plus, there are very few seats and a lot of space wasted. You could fit a lot of regular standard class seats in that area and this is what I think should seriously happen to increase capacity.

It'll probably happen long-term, unless they figure out something to resurrect 'Standard Plus' that satisfies the board's legal concerns.

 

[dk1]

I’m looking at the 15:03 Newport-Piccadilly on Friday. I presume I can just sit in 1st if space is available and upgrade? Would that be £20 does anybody know? I don’t want full dining.

 

[AdamWW]

I’m looking at the 15:03 Newport-Piccadilly on Friday. I presume I can just sit in 1st if space is available and upgrade? Would that be £20 does anybody know? I don’t want full dining.

Officially the rule appears to be that you should ask first.

However in my limited (one trip) experience you do indeed just sit down and when the guard comes round you have the choice of paying £20 (£10 weekends) or finding somewhere else to sit.

 

[hexagon789]

I’m looking at the 15:03 Newport-Piccadilly on Friday. I presume I can just sit in 1st if space is available and upgrade? Would that be £20 does anybody know? I don’t want full dining.

TfW's website says you need to ask the conductor first, but I'm sure people on here have reported just taking a seat in 1st and paying when the conductor appears.