Do they really though? I have never seen any wheelchair user be told they can't get on a bus / train by anyone (with the exception of the social media clips.)
Not saying I agree with removing flip-up seats, but you've answered your own question here:
Some disabled passengers have resorted to recording and publishing clips of people not moving out of wheelchair spaces for them, and other accessibility problems, because they're just getting ignored otherwise. If a wheelchair user in the scenario described in post #1 complained to TfL, they'd likely be told well we can't force people to move, missing the nuance that Paulley v FirstGroup ruled that the driver does have to urge the passengers occupying the space to move, even if they ultimately can't force them, and in this example, it sounds like the driver simply did nothing.
I agree it happens (as I said, we see the social media clips) but does it happen to the frequency that some are making out on this forum. Again, maybe we need a wheelchaired user to give their own experience.
Not a wheelchair user myself but the weekend just gone I was helping one travel to us. They didn't have an issue with people moving out of the space, but did have a bit of an argument with someone who put two suitcases behind their wheelchair. They eventually moved them, but it's frustrating having people argue back when you politely ask them to move, let alone them refusing to move. And this is one of maybe half a dozen train journey this wheelchair user has made in the past year. So at least for them, it's happened on a high proportion of journeys.
They may be a minority, but there's enough difficulty travelling on public transport as a wheelchair user that it can really grind you down and upset or frustrate you. And if there's space available, it's just wholly unacceptable and ableist to not move to let them on.
Oh, I agree, we should be doing everything to help those who struggle as much as possible and if there is space there is no excuse. I just think some of the suggestions in this topic such as kicking off those with a buggy or removing tip up seats just in case are a little OTT solutions to a problem that can easily be sorted by having a human to human interaction, either between the two passengers or if needs be with the driver & passengers.
I agree, it's about making reasonable adjustments, not adjustments at all costs. If a bus is full, it's full, whether it's a wheelchair user or a standing passenger wanting to board. I don't have a strong opinion on flip-up seats but I can't imagine it would make much difference either way.
Nobody has to get off, just make room, for pram and buggy users they need to fold them, no having to leave the bus.
The current announcements which of course reflect the legal requirement, which does not require the driver to compel people to leave the seats. In the real world we inhabit, some pram and buggy users either can't or won't fold them, and the law limits the duty of operators to compel occupiers to move.
When empty yes, but not always when they have been filled. And fitting between seats can takes up a space for another passenger.
@Mark L my reading of the original post may differ from yours; I read it that drivers weren't asking for the buggies and prams to be removed. Drivers should be issuing the appropriate instructions to passengers with buggies/prams. Not being able to physically enforce the rules (or law) isn't a valid reason for not issuing an instruction for passengers to comply.
Unfortunately however, it is the law. Drivers need to try and persuade people to vacate wheelchair spaces when they're needed by wheelchair users but the Supreme Court stopped short of saying drivers should evict people from the spaces if they refuse to move. As you can expect, bus operators are reluctant to empower their drivers to force people to move out of the spaces, though the operators could introduce that policy if they wanted to.
The rules say that the driver should request the person currently in the wheelchair space to vacate it, and I've seen occasions when they have simply refused to allow a wheelchair user to board without even doing that.
Correct, and they need reporting so they can receive some training.
Why is a buggy user selfish? How dare they use a bus for it's intended purpose?
It’s fairly common for drivers to do that.
It’s a problem. Some drivers don’t even stop if they see a chair waiting, just a vague wave that the bus is full. Or if they have to stop, you get the story that the ramp is broken. Both were always a Stagecoach Newcastle speciality and zero stuffs were given by management.
I agree that most people are quite reasonable and in most cases something can be worked out but if it can't be then there's nothing the driver can do. I also agree that single door buses give a far more satisfactory lower deck layout.
You don't need to assume that. All taxis in London have been wheelchair accessible for donkeys years.
I've seen comments on these videos from parents who say they don't care and wouldn't move regardless, some parents even take double prams on buses which is ridiculous!
By law the buggy user must vacate the space, it is not first come first serve.
No it's not! Backed by the law wheelchairs always take priority over buggies. You don't have to agree with it, but that's the legal position.
I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing but it is what is it. If somebody with a buggy is unable or unwilling to move from the space then that's it, nothing more can be done.
It’s not the law though is it? At the moment all we know is that buggy users occupying the wheel chair space are supposed to be asked TWICE by the driver if they can fold or vacate the wheelchair bay. They don’t have to and can legally decline.
Not true.
I’ve seen it from both sides. I’ve had buggy and Pram users refuse to fold or make room for a wheelchair, but I’ve also had a wheelchair user who’s refused to make space for a buggy.
It is actually not the law, unfortunately.
The Supreme Court said:
