TfL vs SWT

[yorkie]

Oyster Pay As You Go will be accepted on all National Rail journeys within Greater London on Wednesday and Thursday, just show your Oyster card at station gate lines.

South West Trains will be accepting all Transport for London tickets on certain SWT services within the Travelcard boundary. The services are Feltham to Clapham Junction and Waterloo via Kew Bridge or via Richmond; and Wimbledon to Clapham Junction and Waterloo. This includes PAYG and paper tickets.

We shall not be accepting PAYG or paper London Underground tickets at any other SWT station.

Hmm... which 'rule' trumps the other?

TfL http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/11979.aspx
SWT http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/SWTrains/News/_londonundergroundstrike.htm

 

[glynn80]

Hmm... which 'rule' trumps the other?

TfL http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/11979.aspx
SWT http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/SWTrains/News/_londonundergroundstrike.htm

A Newsrail Express bulletin appeared on the frontpage of the FRPP recently regarding this exact issue

Industrial action affecting London Underground services - 9-11 June 2009 from 18:59

The following arrangements have been agreed with TfL/LU:

Travelcards: LU are only offering a goodwill payment to holders of TfL/LU issued Travelcards. No payments are being offered to holders of TOC issued Travelcards. Customers should contact London Underground Customer Services on 0845 330 9880.

Oyster PAYG: In addition to existing services and routes, TOCs have agreed to allow PAYG customers to use National Rail services on routes which offer a 'reasonable alternative' to their normal Tube journey. TOCs will advise their own staff accordingly. Some PAYG customers using TOC services on these 'additional' routes will not be able to correctly 'touch in' or 'touch out' during their journey. To prevent customers being left with a debit for an entry/exit charge for an 'incomplete' journey, the system will be set up automatically to either:

- 'complete' any journey starting or ending at a station within Zone 1 provided the customer has 'touched in or out' there with the PAYG charge based on the customers 'usual' journey

- refund any entry/exit charge made for 'incomplete' journeys where the customer has either only 'touched in' or 'touched out.'

Customers should only need to contact the Oyster helpline 0845 330 9876 if (a) the system has wrongly completed a journey or (b) a refund of entry/exit charges has not been credited to their card on entry/exit at their most frequently used station within approximately one week.

LU Cash (paper) Tickets: Passengers holding LU issued cash tickets will be allowed to use TOC services on the same 'reasonable alternative' routes as for Oyster PAYG subject to the ticket being valid in the zones for the journey made.

Tickets with 'cross-London' validity will not be valid for 'cross-London' journeys on Tube services on days other than those for which the ticket is valid

The phrase used in the above is "reasonable alternative" to LU journeys and thus I believe SWT are correct in their assessment of the situation. From yorkie's post, it certainly seems as if SWT have listed all routes which could be construed as an alternative to any LU journey on SWT and therefore have acted in terms of the arrangement between TfL and the TOCs.

Some other TOCs may obviously have been more lenient in their assessment of the situation but that would be up to the commercial managers at the various TOCs in question.

 

[dan_atki]

As an aside with the PAYG incomplete issue - I saw the wording posted on FCC's site. What happens if I don't have a 'usual' journey or I don't commute in zone 1...?

Also interesting to note FCC are accepting PAYG on any zonal journey from Elstree to East Croydon/Sutton...

 

[yorkie]

As an aside with the PAYG incomplete issue - I saw the wording posted on FCC's site. What happens if I don't have a 'usual' journey

Maybe they plan to misuse the data stored in the Oyster system to determine patterns of journeys, and if you deviate from that you will be 'punished':roll:

or I don't commute in zone 1...?

Then presumably you'll be chinged. That's the implication. If so, that's totally unfair.

Also interesting to note FCC are accepting PAYG on any zonal journey from Elstree to East Croydon/Sutton...

As per TfL guidance then. SWT and TfL have been at loggerheads for a while now, so my take differs to that of Glynn80: SWT are clearly defying TfL and they know that their barrier staff can simply refuse passengers travel and they can threaten passengers with prosecution despite obeying TfLs instructions, and they can get away with it because they have all the laws their way and a big legal department.

Another thing that bugs me is the fact that they are offering a part refund to holders of Travelcards issued at LU stations, yet not to those issued at NR stations. That is totally unfair as it is the same product! So someone who usually does Harrow to Marylebone on Chiltern and buys their ticket at Harrow-on-the-Hill would get a partial refund but someone who does Harrow & Wealdstone to Oxford Circus on the Bakerloo and buys at Wealdstone would not!!

 

[John @ home]

It has now descended into a public row between TOCs and London Underground.

This is the text from Newsrail Express (as posted on another non usenet group)

Industrial action affecting London Underground services - 9th to 11th June 2009

As you may be aware, the RMT Union has called for its members employed by London Underground (LU) to take industrial action for 48 hours from 1859 on Tuesday 9th June.

"London Underground will be issuing revised ticketing and refund instructions as soon as possible - please disregard the previous instructions that we (ATOC) were supplied that appeared here yesterday.

Important: It should also be especially noted that Transport for London/London Underground are advising customers that Oyster PAYG is being accepted on all National Rail services in Greater London. This is not what has been agreed with the Train Companies. PAYG will only be accepted on 'reasonable alternative' routes, these being determined and advised locally by each TOC.

In the meantime staff should politely advise customers enquiring about Travelcard refunds or PAYG charges to contact London Underground Customer Services on 0845 330 988 or the Oyster help line on 0845 330 9876 as appropriate."

John

 

[dan_atki]

Then presumably you'll be chinged. That's the implication. If so, that's totally unfair.

Thought as much - still, a call to the Oyster helpline would soon sort that out - they'll have too many complaints to deal with other people's PAYG balance not being correct over these two days I doubt they'd think twice about a refund!

I wonder how many people are going to go for a free ride and not even touch in without having to touch out at the other end...?

If routes are only going to be arranged per TOC then someone needs to tell this to TfL and get their site sorted out! Let's face it passenger realises Tube is not working, where are they going to go to see where their ticket is valid? Yes, the TfL site.

If there's some huge problem in Woking, say, and SWT aren't running through services down the SWML, then I'd go on their site to see if FGW and Southern were accepting tickets for other reasonable journeys, not FGW or Southerns' sites!

 

[yorkie]

Aha! So ATOC recognise that the public has been infiormed they can do this.

Now, I wouldn't advise anyone to do this of course, but if someone used PAYG and had no cash on them, for a journey wholly in Greater London as per TfLs instructions, and a rougue non-TfL compliant TOC such as SWT tried to give them a penalty fare and they refused to pay, I'd suggest no court in the land would uphold that. But that's just my opinion, IANAL etc.

 

[t0ffeeman]

Just for the record, Harrow & Wealdstone is now an LUL station as is the whole Bakerloo line except Willesden Junction. Yorkie, I understand your theory just a wrong example.