TFL Travelcard and Capping Changes

[AM9]

So courtesy of Lib Dems TFL have announced on 11/11 a 110% fare increase for armed services and other railcard users?

The announcement is that the fare increase affects railcard holders which includes Senior Citizens, young persons, and members of the armed services.

 

[theageofthetra]

Is there anything in the TFL press release ( or from ATOC) which confirms that the railcard discount is no longer valid? A link ideally which can go out to armed services charities for maximum publicity?

 

[swt_passenger]

There is now a TfL press release and it confirms:

A 34% discount on off peak Day Travelcards will be introduced for visitor groups of 10 or more. This will cost £8 for adults and £4 for under 16s (currently off-peak Day Travelcards cost £8.90 for adults and £3.60 for under 16s). These discounts will also be available to Railcard holders. Under 11s accompanied by an adult will continue to travel free on all TfL services.

https://www.tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2014/november/fares-announcement-blank

You seem to have been in a group of about one person who thought railcards would not remain valid?

 

[mattdickinson]

I don't think you can claim that, because so far there is no mention of railcard discounts being changed in any of the announcement papers (as linked in John@home's earlier post.).

The only mention of railcards is:

1.26 The PAYG concession for disabled Railcard holders is extended from off-peak to all day. This brings the PAYG concession into line with the general terms for this concession on national rail.

1.27 The scope of all fare concessions on TfL Rail services is otherwise unchanged in 2015.

 

[RJ]

This claim that part time workers are supposedly going to benefit. Is this only part timers who commute during the AM peak?

I work part time but usually do late and weekend shifts. The commute involves Zones 1-6 and a mix of trains and buses to get to work and sometimes night buses to get home. I hit the Off Peak cap. From what I can see, the cap will be increasing by 37.6%. Even those travelling in Zones 1 and 2 face a 20% increase. This new fares structure actually heavily penalises part time workers who save a bit of money and lessen the burden on the system by commuting off peak on weekdays and on weekends.

The losers of these changes will be part time shift workers who may have to pay to benefit part timers who work during business hours. And those who pay for children who start their journeys at NR stations.

 

[bb21]

Half-truths and spin is usually the order of the day you will find.

They don't even have the decency to acknowledge that some people will lose out badly, just like last time.

 

[theageofthetra]

Thanks for that press release- very useful. So if I have read that press release correctly then all railcard holders (I will ignore disabled cards due to their special arrangements) will get 34% off the new much higher £12 z 1-6 travel card so instead of £5.90 it will rise to £7.92 an increase of 23%?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think we can expect to see more of this on National Rail too.
The DfT wants ATOC to develop a multiple-journey ticket for less-than-daily travel, for the increasing number of people who don't travel on a route every day.
TfL has gone one further by pushing PAYG on another tranche of people (tourists), and explicitly says that the increase in Travelcard prices is to pay for the other changes.

 

[mattdickinson]

Thanks for that press release- very useful. So if I have read that press release correctly then all railcard holders (I will ignore disabled cards due to their special arrangements) will get 34% off the new much higher £12 z 1-6 travel card so instead of £5.90 it will rise to £7.92 an increase of 23%?

The discount will be 33.333% in practice, as the Travelcard will cost £8

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks for that press release- very useful. So if I have read that press release correctly then all railcard holders (I will ignore disabled cards due to their special arrangements) will get 34% off the new much higher £12 z 1-6 travel card so instead of £5.90 it will rise to £7.92 an increase of 23%?

It won't be £7.92 - probably £7.90.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This claim that part time workers are supposedly going to benefit. Is this only part timers who commute during the AM peak?

I work part time but usually do late and weekend shifts. The commute involves Zones 1-6 and a mix of trains and buses to get to work and sometimes night buses to get home. I hit the Off Peak cap. From what I can see, the cap will be increasing by 37.6%. Even those travelling in Zones 1 and 2 face a 20% increase. This new fares structure actually heavily penalises part time workers who save a bit of money and lessen the burden on the system by commuting off peak on weekdays and on weekends.

The losers of these changes will be part time shift workers who may have to pay to benefit part timers who work during business hours. And those who pay for children who start their journeys at NR stations.

In zones 1-2 and 1-3 the new all-day cap will be lower than both the old anytime and off-peak caps. Dare to live further out and yes, you will be clobbered for off-peak travel. However, the increase may not be as much as the whole cap. Currently to travel from Crayford (Z6) to Oxford Circus is £5.10 off-peak single so the return is capped at £8.50. Next year the single will be £5.20 and the return won't be enough to hit the cap. Still a hefty increase of £1.90 though.

 

[bb21]

Taking it to extremes, for someone travelling a few return journeys between, say, Zone 6 and a number of places outside Zone 1, only at off-peak times, we have gone from an off-peak Zones 2-6 cap, to an off-peak Zones 1-6 cap, to a peak Zones 1-6 cap albeit with a small reduction in price? Wonderful. What has the percentage increase been on that one?

One thing I don't understand is why are TfL removing all the measures designed to help ease peak time crowding in Zone 1, by first removing caps outside Zone 1 hence removing the incentive for people to avoid it, and now the removal of off-peak caps, hence taking away the incentive to travel at off-peak times?

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing I don't understand is why are TfL removing all the measures designed to help ease peak time crowding in Zone 1, by first removing caps outside Zone 1 hence removing the incentive for people to avoid it, and now the removal of off-peak caps, hence taking away the incentive to travel at off-peak times?

Quite possibly a recognition that few people will travel in the peak unless they have to (because it is so overcrowded), and therefore such an incentive/disincentive is not required?

Over on the mainline it's increasingly proving a means of segmenting the market (i.e. making business travellers pay) rather than a genuine means of shifting crowding, as if it were the latter Off-Peak tickets would not be valid on Friday evenings nor on Sunday afternoons/evenings, and there would be precious few Advances either.

Neil

 

[mattdickinson]

Taking it to extremes, for someone travelling a few return journeys between, say, Zone 6 and a number of places outside Zone 1, only at off-peak times, we have gone from an off-peak Zones 2-6 cap, to an off-peak Zones 1-6 cap, to a peak Zones 1-6 cap albeit with a small reduction in price? Wonderful. What has the percentage increase been on that one?

One thing I don't understand is why are TfL removing all the measures designed to help ease peak time crowding in Zone 1, by first removing caps outside Zone 1 hence removing the incentive for people to avoid it, and now the removal of off-peak caps, hence taking away the incentive to travel at off-peak times?

Individual journeys are still cheaper off-peak, and this will now include peak journeys including Z1 against the flow on National Rail.

 

[theageofthetra]

How does this impact those who have railcards that can be loaded into oyster. E.g Gold Card, JSA ( not sure if there are any others, armed forces?) Surely they are going to be heavily impacted?

 

[bb21]

Individual journeys are still cheaper off-peak, and this will now include peak journeys including Z1 against the flow on National Rail.

Are they?

Counter-flow off-peak concessions will not apply to journeys outside Zone 1, nor benefit anyone who would have previously hit the one-day cap.

If this were genuinely a measure to improve the situation for those working part-time then I am all for it, but not by robbing some passengers to pay for a discount for others. This is change for change's sake and I think it is worse than keeping the status quo.

At least the Lib Dems can now claim a hollow victory.

 

[All Line Rover]

I've examined the 2015 fares and have come to the following conclusions. These all consider off-peak day fares / 'caps' (because those who buy peak day fares / 'caps' obviously stand to benefit from the changes).

[Key: N=No, Y=Yes, P=Paper Travelcard]

Off-peak winners:

• Zones 1-2 N-Railcard: 2014 (£7) ~ 2015 (£6.40)
• Zones 1-2 Y-Railcard: 2014 (£5.90-P) ~ 2015 (£6.40)
• Zones 1-3 N-Railcard: 2014 (£7.70) ~ 2015 (£7.50)

Off-peak losers:

• Zones 1-3 Y-Railcard: 2014 (£5.90-P) ~ 2015 (£7.50)
• Zones 1-4 N-Railcard: 2014 (£7.70) ~ 2015 (£9.20)
• Zones 1-4 Y-Railcard: 2014 (£5.90-P) ~ 2015 (£8-P)
• Zones 1-5 N-Railcard: 2014 (£8.50) ~ 2015 (£10.90)
• Zones 1-5 Y-Railcard: 2014 (£5.90-P) ~ 2015 (£8-P)
• Zones 1-6 N-Railcard: 2014 (£8.50) ~ 2015 (£11.70)
• Zones 1-6 Y-Railcard: 2014 (£5.90-P) ~ 2015 (£8-P)

When considering the above, one must take account of the fact that those needing peak day fares stand to make considerable savings (e.g. Zones 1-2 goes down from £8.40 to £6.40, Zones 1-6 goes down from £15.80 to £11.70).

The off-peak 'winners' (which I consider to be everyone whose fare won't be going up by more than 50p) are those making journeys within central London. All those making journeys within greater London (e.g. staying in a hotel in Croydon, or Heathrow) stand to lose.

Overall, I don't think the changes are particularly detrimental. For many people (including myself) who require a mixture of peak day and off-peak day fares each week, the increases in the off-peak fares will be balanced out by the substantial decreases in peak fares.

The most that any Railcard holder stands to lose is £2.10, and this will be balanced out by any savings on peak time travel.

 

[bb21]

I don't think forcing people who predominantly travel off-peak to accept an increase of over 30% just so that those who predominantly travel peak part-time can have a reduction is neither fair nor "not particularly detrimental".

 

[All Line Rover]

I don't think forcing people who predominantly travel off-peak to accept an increase of over 30% just so that those who predominantly travel peak part-time can have a reduction is neither fair nor "not particularly detrimental".

Occasional off-peak travel, with absolutely no peak travel, is leisure travel. It is not compulsory.

Occasional peak time travel for a part-job is obligatory, unless you suggest that such workers, who are mostly low-paid, should quit their jobs and rely on benefits.

This is a revenue-neutral exercise, and I don't believe it disadvantages any vulnerable groups (students, low-paid workers, the disabled, etc.).

You also need to qualify the latter part of your statement, as the increase you speak of only affects those travelling beyond zone 3 (for non-Railcard holders) and zone 2 (for Railcard holders). Those on a leisurely day-trip to central London will not be affected.

 

[bb21]

Occasional off-peak travel, with absolutely no peak travel, is leisure travel. It is not compulsory.

Occasional peak time travel for a part-job is obligatory, unless you suggest that such workers, who are mostly low-paid, should quit their jobs and rely on benefits.

This is a revenue-neutral exercise, and I don't believe it disadvantages any vulnerable groups (students, low-paid workers, the disabled, etc.).

You have ignored a large part of the population, who do not work 9-5 and predominantly travel off-peak, either because they work shifts or have unconventional hours, part-time or full time. These people also largely fit the profile of those who are not very well paid.

Because it is revenue-neutral, for every £1 saved by someone, there is £1 lost by someone else.

 

[All Line Rover]

You have ignored a large part of the population, who do not work 9-5 and predominantly travel off-peak, either because they work shifts or have unconventional hours, part-time or full time. These people also largely fit the profile of those who are not very well paid.

Because it is revenue-neutral, for every £1 saved by someone, there is £1 lost by someone else.

Why should those who travel exclusively during off-peak hours benefit at the expense of those who need to travel during peak hours?

This is a revenue-neutral exercise which simplifies the fares structure in London and puts everyone on a level playing field. In my view, as long as it isn't an excuse to increase fares overall, it is satisfactory.

The next step towards simplifying the fares structure would be to eliminate the hideously complex NR / LU / quasi-LU distinction.

Some will lose while some will gain in a revenue-neutral exercise. Of course. I'm not sure what your point is, unless you expect additional subsidy or are simply opposed to any changes to the fares structure.

 

[bb21]

Also I do not entertain the idea that it will somehow save a worker on travel costs for commuting purposes.

Take the example of someone who commutes from Zone 4 to Zone 1. The peak TfL fare is currently £3.80 so that is £7.60 per day. The Zones 1-4 cap will be £9.20 so who is saving money? Even on the rip-off NR through fare with Zone 1 premium this only saves £1.40, and that is more down to the inability of TfL and NR companies to work together to come up with a more coherent fares structure.

You might say that a bus journey may be required at one end, but that is more an issue due to the non-availability of transfer arrangements rather than inherent issues with the peak/off-peak fares structure or the lack of part-time season tickets. Surely the way forward is to investigate ways for this facility to be made available than penalise people who predominantly travel off-peak.

 

[greatkingrat]

For all the spin about reductions for part-time workers, anyone just making one return trip to work won't save anything as they didn't hit the cap before and won't hit the cap after.

I suspect the number of people who actually pay the peak cap currently is very small.

 

[bb21]

Why should those who travel exclusively during off-peak hours benefit at the expense of those who need to travel during peak hours?

Because those who travel predominantly in the peak are not suffering fare rises. It is those who travel off-peak who are suffering fare rises.

If you want to turn this into a circular argument then this debate will be meaningless.

This is a revenue-neutral exercise which simplifies the fares structure in London and puts everyone on a level playing field. In my view, as long as it isn't an excuse to increase fares overall, it is satisfactory.

Revenue-neutral means exactly that. If some people stand to make big gains, that will be on the back of those who stand to lose out big time.

Forcing some people to lose out big time is not satisfactory in my eyes.

The next step towards simplifying the fares structure would be to eliminate the hideously complex NR / LU / quasi-LU distinction.

That I agree.

Some will lose while some will gain in a revenue-neutral exercise. Of course. I'm not sure what your point is, unless you expect additional subsidy or are simply opposed to any changes to the fares structure.

If there is no additional money, then the effects of these changes should be measured carefully to ensure that no one loses out or that the effects are kept to a minimum on those who suffer fare rises. Fare rises of over 30% is not acceptable in my opinion. Change for change's sake is ridiculous in my opinion.

 

[RJ]

You have ignored a large part of the population, who do not work 9-5 and predominantly travel off-peak, either because they work shifts or have unconventional hours, part-time or full time. These people also largely fit the profile of those who are not very well paid.

Indeed - these could be people working shifts in catering, retail or hospitality. Lots of shops and restaurants have opening hours outside of 9am - 5pm and on weekend nowadays and pay minimum wage. These changes are all very well for teaching assistants, hairdressers and other early birds working part time, but not for those others mentioned.

Just thought, it would be a nice touch to allow holders of Two Together Railcards to get a discount on paper Travelcards, which they don't currently get. As a ticket office clerk, I warn buyers of this before selling the railcard.

 

[MikeWh]

For all the spin about reductions for part-time workers, anyone just making one return trip to work won't save anything as they didn't hit the cap before and won't hit the cap after.

I suspect the number of people who actually pay the peak cap currently is very small.

Oh yes they will!

If you travel from Crayford to Oxford Circus it's currently a £7.50 single or £15.00 return. The cap is currently £15.80 but will reduce to £11.70. The single fare will probably increase as well.

 

[RJ]

For all the spin about reductions for part-time workers, anyone just making one return trip to work won't save anything as they didn't hit the cap before and won't hit the cap after.

I suspect the number of people who actually pay the peak cap currently is very small.

It only takes a return journey involving one bus and a NR-Tube trip to hit the cap. I don't have any figures to hand, but I wouldn't have thought that it'd be that uncommon amongst those living out in Zones 5 and 6. From where I work, ADTs are £17.00 and a peak PAYG single to a Tube station is £7.50 - so the new £11.70 cap will be a saving for the many people who do change to the Underground in Central London.

 

[All Line Rover]

Also I do not entertain the idea that it will somehow save a worker on travel costs for commuting purposes.

Take the example of someone who commutes from Zone 4 to Zone 1. The peak TfL fare is currently £3.80 so that is £7.60 per day. The Zones 1-4 cap will be £9.20 so who is saving money? Even on the rip-off NR through fare with Zone 1 premium this only saves £1.40, and that is more down to the inability of TfL and NR companies to work together to come up with a more coherent fares structure.

You might say that a bus journey may be required at one end, but that is more an issue due to the non-availability of transfer arrangements rather than inherent issues with the peak/off-peak fares structure or the lack of part-time season tickets. Surely the way forward is to investigate ways for this facility to be made available than penalise people who predominantly travel off-peak...

...those who travel predominantly in the peak are not suffering fare rises. It is those who travel off-peak who are suffering fare rises.

You are contradicting yourself here.

You say that those who make two peak journeys a day on LU will not save under the current arrangements. That is true. They'll be paying the same in 2015 as they pay in 2014 (bar purely inflationary increases).

You neglect to say that those who make two off-peak journeys a day on LU will also be paying the same in 2015 as they pay in 2014. These individuals don't reach the 2014 off-peak cap, or the 2015 peak cap.

So it is misleading to suggest that those who travel off-peak will be suffering fare rises while those who travel peak will be paying the same. Irrespective of whether they travel peak or off-peak, many will be paying the same. Many who travel in the peak will be paying less. Those who make two off-peak LU journeys and two bus journeys per day (part-time low-paid workers with erratic hours, perhaps?) will be paying, in zones 1-4 to take your example, £8.60 in 2015 compared to £7.70 in 2014. An increase of 90p, which includes the purely inflationary fare increases.

But those people, who make many, many off-peak journeys and stand to lose the most from the withdrawal of the off-peak cap, tend to fall into what category? Hmm... Leisure travellers, perhaps? And although I don't know how TfL have calculated the changes to be revenue neutral, I wouldn't be surprised if a large proportion of the 'losers' were leisure travellers. I'm not overly distressed about the prospect of leisure travellers needing to pay more in 2015.

the effects of these changes should be measured carefully to ensure that no one loses out or that the effects are kept to a minimum on those who suffer fare rises

If that is the case then you are essentially saying that there should be no changes at all, that the fares structure should be completely static.

 

[bb21]

Also those of you think that this is simply just a revenue-neutral exercise should be careful what you wish for. Call me cynical if you like, but I can see how this will pan out in the near future. Pretty soon (I think within 3 years) TfL will proclaim that peak-time overcrowding is still an issue and that peak/off-peak caps will be introduced (note not "re-introduced"). This will be dressed up as a measure to help off-peak passengers save money, and guess what price level the off-peak cap will be set at?

I have seen this happen before in many places I lived so I am almost certain that this is how this whole pile of sorry mess will end up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So it is misleading to suggest that those who travel off-peak will be suffering fare rises while those who travel peak will be paying the same. Irrespective of whether they travel peak or off-peak, many will be paying the same. Many who travel in the peak will be paying less. Those who make two off-peak LU journeys and two bus journeys per day (part-time low-paid workers with erratic hours, perhaps?) will be paying, in zones 1-4 to take your example, £8.60 in 2015 compared to £7.70 in 2014. An increase of 90p, which includes the purely inflationary fare increases.

Yes, some people will be paying the same. That is true, and those people are not affected.

£7.70 to £8.60 is 11.6% is it not? I wouldn't call that inflationary fare rise.

But those people, who make many, many off-peak journeys and stand to lose the most from the withdrawal of the off-peak cap, tend to fall into what category? Hmm... Leisure travellers, perhaps? And although I don't know how TfL have calculated the changes to be revenue neutral, I wouldn't be surprised if a large proportion of the 'losers' were leisure travellers. I'm not overly distressed about the prospect of leisure travellers needing to pay more in 2015.

What about people who have multiple jobs? They are far more likely to fall into the category of those who travel predominantly off-peak, with the odd peak journey here and there, work shifts, and not particularly well paid. In comparison, those who travel predominantly in the peak are more likely to have a stable 9-5 job.

If leisure traveller suffer the most and numbers reduce consequently, then this is not going to be revenue-neutral is it? Or will they be clobbered for more than they should to compensate for the reduction in numbers?

It is great that you have no consideration for leisure passengers, who probably contribute a great deal to the economic wellbeing of London.

If that is the case then you are essentially saying that there should be no changes at all, that the fares structure should be completely static.

No, read my whole sentence.

It is possible sometimes to ensure that no one loses out, through efficiency savings and reduction in operating costs.

 

[DelayRepay]

Many who travel in the peak will be paying less. Those who make two off-peak LU journeys and two bus journeys per day (part-time low-paid workers with erratic hours, perhaps?) will be paying, in zones 1-4 to take your example, £8.60 in 2015 compared to £7.70 in 2014. An increase of 90p, which includes the purely inflationary fare increases.

90p might sound trivial, but it's significant if you work part time earning minimum wage, and have to pay it every time you work a shift.

But those people, who make many, many off-peak journeys and stand to lose the most from the withdrawal of the off-peak cap, tend to fall into what category? Hmm... Leisure travellers, perhaps? And although I don't know how TfL have calculated the changes to be revenue neutral, I wouldn't be surprised if a large proportion of the 'losers' were leisure travellers. I'm not overly distressed about the prospect of leisure travellers needing to pay more in 2015.

Whereas I am, because a reduction in people travelling for leisure in London leads to a reduction in spending in bars, restaurants etc. This in turn affects the viability of small businesses.

 

[richardderby]

to further force a cut in the c.600,000 sales per week at tube ticket offices so TFL bosses can close them all down regardless

http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/documents/get_lob?id=3864&field=file