TfL routes constant weekend closures

[Taunton]

News article about constant weekend closures on the Overground, this at Wandsworth Road, where in the last year it has been closed 25 out of 53 weekends, making it just untenable for regular usage (and for the tenant of the station cafe, which the article focuses on):

The 'wound up' South London businesses struggling as London Overground closures 'kill' trade

One station was closed 77 times in an 18 month period

uk.news.yahoo.com

Notably the issues caused just get passed around between the various participants, but overall it leads to TfL just not providing a service. It's always been notable that in lists of weekend closures the Overground lines are always hit far more than the Underground.

Not just the Overground any longer. The DLR is now very regularly hit by weekend closures. I well recall the operating contract, until quite recently, was that each DLR major branch could not be closed more than one weekend a year, and that worked, long term. Now it seems every weekend (it certainly is this current month, March 2025, where every single weekend a significant proportion is closed). Given that it is still done "by the major branch", and train routes are end to end, it does mean that some through journeys are impossible on every weekend of this month.

One does get the feeling that the engineers have allowed to get comfortable with weekends, and if you actually go alongside the routes closed, little or nothing seems to be happening. The old concept that such closures were for an "all hands to the pump" project seems to have disappeared.

 

[jyte]

DLR closures are related to the introduction of new trains, and the requirement to test, test and re-test them before they enter revenue service. I believe the fact that the new trains were delivered late (perhaps because Beckton depot enlargement was also a bit late) has snowballed through the test/upgrade schedule and made the whole thing late.

But yes, I agree that the Overground is hit by a lot of weekend closures. I'd say of the last three of six or eight weekends I've been unable to take the Mildmay line from Clapham junction to Willesden junction because of a closure at some section of that route.

 

[poffle]

TFL don't control the infrastructure on the Overground lines. That's Network Rail. Although they do control the rolling stock and many/most of the stations.

I would assume that most of the Overground weekend closures are related to Network Rail activity. ( One benefit if the line renaming is it's much easier to tell whether the closures affect "your" journey.)

 

[TFN]

A lot of the Windrush line closures are related to Surrey Quays’ new entrance being built. Another full closure is coming this weekend.

 

[Bald Rick]

News article about constant weekend closures on the Overground, this at Wandsworth Road, where in the last year it has been closed 25 out of 53 weekends, making it just untenable for regular usage (and for the tenant of the station cafe, which the article focuses on):

One does get the feeling that the engineers have allowed to get comfortable with weekends, and if you actually go alongside the routes closed, little or nothing seems to be happening. The old concept that such closures were for an "all hands to the pump" project seems to have disappeared.

What that article doesn’t explain is the definition of a “weekend closure”, or why it happenned.

Although I don’t know the detail, I imagine that some of the “weekend closures” were a late start on a Sunday morning, or early finish on a Saturday night. I doubt very much there were 25 wekends where the station had no service all Saturday and Sunday. Perhaps somebody local could confirm.

Notably the Victoria resignalling project was working in this area last year, which is a once in 40 years job. That’s not to say there won’t be other work in future, but it would have been particualrly intensive over the past year / 18 months, and that leevl of disruption over an extended period is unlikley to be seen again for decades in that area.

 

[jhy44]

It's nice to finally see this being raised. The LO Windrush line between Clapham Junction and Surrey Quays is such a joke round these parts that everyone just assumes it is closed every weekend and it's a nice surprise if it isn't. It's been like that ever since I moved to the Clapham area in 2018.

I don't understand why the line seems to need so much huge line-closure-requiring maintenance works that are seemingly endless (5+ years), far more so than any other London railway line, and indeed any other line in the country it seems. It's one thing after another, sure the Victoria re-signalling work was a big job, but that only accounts for a small proportion of the years of regular closures that continue to this day.

I can already foresee TfL and others saying 'well the line runs on / crosses many different lines so there's lots of scope for disruption', perhaps, but in that case better mitigations need to be put in place to prevent full line closures. Take the current work on the Surrey Quays entrance for example, why can't at least a service from Clapham Junction to Queens Road Peckham or Peckham Rye still run? Or if there's work on the SWML meaning Clapham High Street to Clapham Junction is out of action, why not run trains from Dalston to Clapham High Street? If turnback-infrastructure is the issue here then for the love of god TfL, get some turnback points installed at stations along the route so that these whole line closures can be reduced to partial-line closures to spare some travellers the pain.

 

[Class15]

What that article doesn’t explain is the definition of a “weekend closure”, or why it happenned.

Although I don’t know the detail, I imagine that some of the “weekend closures” were a late start on a Sunday morning, or early finish on a Saturday night. I doubt very much there were 25 wekends where the station had no service all Saturday and Sunday. Perhaps somebody local could confirm.

The 25 full weekends sounds about right to me.

 

[Taunton]

The 25 full weekends sounds about right to me.

My perception as well. Difficult to be certain because the information about past closures is not in the public domain, hence how the café owner here had to do a Freedom of Information request to get it. But the weekend after weekend when one, the other or both sides of the Overground circle have a closure are most noticeable once you start paying attention to it. Just for info, the whole south side of the Overground circle is, as ever, closed next weekend as well:

Windrush line Saturday 15 March Sunday 16 March Highbury & Islington to New Cross, New Cross Gate and Clapham Junction, including during Friday and Saturday Night Services.

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/planned-track-closures.pdf

It's bizarre also that when the Overground was developed much was made of giving links which previously were difficult, but now it suits to close it whenever, the expectation is just to use those same alternatives that they only recently said didn't exist.

I think to some extent TfL still have their old London Transport perception, that their Underground is for getting to Zone 1 and their buses are for local suburban journeys. Unfortunately the Overground fits neither. It's also annoying that Oyster charging does not recognise system weekend closures where the next best option is going via Zone 1 - we had this only last weekend when the DLR from Canary Wharf to Greenwich and Lewisham was closed yet again (so the engineers can play about for the umpteenth time with the new trains, which as delivered are incompatible with the established signalling), and the best way from Canary Wharf to Lewisham is via London Bridge, Zone 1.

 

[bluegoblin7]

DLR closures are related to the introduction of new trains, and the requirement to test, test and re-test them before they enter revenue service. I believe the fact that the new trains were delivered late (perhaps because Beckton depot enlargement was also a bit late) has snowballed through the test/upgrade schedule and made the whole thing late.

A lot of the DLR closures are related to the interface between the new trains and the signalling system. Whilst computerised control systems have their benefits, it also means a full closure for new software to be uploaded and tested, as it can impact the entire line/route.

As already mentioned, most of the Windrush line closures are actually related either to Network Rail (over which TfL have no control) or the major Surrey Quays rebuild and lack of locations to turn an alternative service. Indeed, just because you can't see any work on one part of the line, it doesn't mean that there isn't a blockage between reversal points.

Weekend closures have always been cyclical. Many lines, TfL or otherwise, have had a lot of closures in rapid succession and then nothing for years. Ultimately the work has to be done at some stage, and generally speaking weekends are still quieter than weekdays.

 

[Taunton]

If the DLR had gone to the supplier of the current trains who knew the signalling, rather than to the bottom bidder, they wouldn't be in the signalling pickle they are now in, where the system needs to handle both existing and new trains. They must have lost far more now than the apparent purchase saving.

Regarding "well it's Network Rail, not us", the supplier of the service is the one who has to pull it all together. They have to control track and signalling supplier, ticketing supplier, their fuel supplier, train supplier (see above), the staff, meet the safety requirements, etc. That's the job. It's what a public transport provider, like any other commercial organisation, has to do - control their suppliers. And when it comes to enhancements, give full understanding to minimising the impact on existing operations during the project rather than produce an architectural whoop-de-do.

 

[bicbasher]

At least there's a little bit of effort on the Windrush during the closure of the core on Saturday with 2tph between West Croydon and London Bridge.

However passengers used to not paying the NR/TfL Zone 1 premium to change modes will have to do so at London Bridge.

 

[pelli]

What that article doesn’t explain is the definition of a “weekend closure”, or why it happenned.

Although I don’t know the detail, I imagine that some of the “weekend closures” were a late start on a Sunday morning, or early finish on a Saturday night. I doubt very much there were 25 wekends where the station had no service all Saturday and Sunday. Perhaps somebody local could confirm.

The FOI response listing 77 dates that Wandsworth Road station was allegedly fully closed in the 19 months from May 2023 to Nov 2024 is available here: https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transp.../foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-2617-2425 .

For planned closures affecting TfL services, some historical information is available in the form of Internet Archive Wayback Machine snapshots of the TfL Planned track closures 6-month look ahead PDF document, so we can try to verify the claims in the FOI document. (But note that plans may have changed after the look-ahead documents were published.)

Looking at Overground services on the section Surrey Quays to Wandsworth Road, ignoring morning/evening/night closures, my count agrees approximately with the FOI response, and I believe the period of 87 weeks had the following planned: 29 Sat+Sun closures, 8 Sunday closures, 1 Saturday closure, 4 whole-working-week (Mon-Fri) closures, 3 other day closures (Easter x2, New Year x1). (There were another 6 weekend days during which Wandsworth Road to Clapham Junction only was closed.)

Alternatively, looking at just the 12 months from Dec 2023 to Nov 2024, I make it: 20 Sat+Sun closures, 6 Sunday closures, 4 whole-working-week (Mon-Fri) closures, 3 other day closures (Easter x2, New Year x1).

If you're interested in the gory details, here's a list of all the weekends and the plannned status of Surrey Quays via Wandsworth Road (WWR) to Clapham Junction (CLJ), with Sat+Sun closures marked in bold:

Spoiler

From the snapshot dated 27 February 2023:
6-7 May: Open
13-14 May: Open
20-21 May: Open
27-28 May: Open
3-4 Jun: Open Sat, Closed Sun
10-11 Jun: Open
17-18 Jun: Closed
24-25 Jun: Closed
1-2 Jul: Closed
8-9 Jul: Open Sat, Closed Sun

From the snapshot dated 14 July 2023:
15-16 Jul: Open
22-23 Jul: Open
29-30 Jul: Open
5-6 Aug: Closed
12-13 Aug: Open
19-20 Aug: Open
26-27 Aug: Open
2-3 Sep: Closed
9-10 Sep: Open
16-17 Sep: Open (except WWR-CLJ Sun)
23-24 Sep: Open
30-31 Sep: Open Sat, Closed Sun
7-8 Oct: Open

From the snapshot dated 5 October 2023:
14-15 Oct: Open
21-22 Oct: Open
28-29 Oct: Closed
4-5 Nov: Closed
11-12 Nov: Closed Sat, Open Sun
18-19 Nov: Open
25-26 Nov: Closed

From the snapshot dated 30 Nov 2023:
2-3 Dec: Closed
9-10 Dec: Open
16-17 Dec: Closed
23-24 Dec: Closed (including the following Mon-Fri)
30-31 Dec: Closed (including the following Mon)
6-7 Jan: Closed
13-14 Jan: Closed
20-21 Jan: Open Sat, Closed Sun
27-28 Jan: Open
3-4 Feb: Open Sat, Closed Sun
10-11 Feb: Closed (including the following Mon-Fri, which are missing from the FOI document)
17-18 Feb: Closed
24-25 Feb: Closed
2-3 Mar: Open
9-10 Mar: Open
16-17 Mar: Closed
23-24 Mar: Closed (FOI document missing the Sat)

From the snapshot dated 27 March 2024:
30-31 Mar: Closed (including the preceding Fri and following Mon)
6-7 Apr: Open Sat, Closed Sun
13-14 Apr: Open
20-21 Apr: Open
27-28 Apr: Open
4-5 May: Open
11-12 May: Open (except WWR-CLJ)
18-19 May: Open
25-26 May: Open
1-2 Jun: Open Sat, Closed Sun
8-9 Jun: Open
15-16 Jun: Open
22-23 Jun: Closed
29-30 Jun: Closed
6-7 Jul: Open
13-14 Jul: Closed
20-21 Jul: Closed (including the following Mon-Fri) (Not listed in the FOI document)
27-28 Jul: Open
3-4 Aug: Open
10-11 Aug: Closed
17-18 Aug: Open
24-25 Aug: Open
31-32 Aug: Open (except WWR-CLJ) (Marked as closed in the FOI document)

From snapshot dated 2 September 2024
7-8 Sep: Closed
14-15 Sep: Closed
21-22 Sep: Open
28-29 Sep: Open
5-6 Oct: Open
12-13 Oct: Open
19-20 Oct: Open
26-27 Oct: Closed (including the following Mon-Fri)
2-3 Nov: Open
9-10 Nov: Open
16-17 Nov: Open
23-24 Nov: Open Sat (except WWR-CLJ), Closed Sun
30-31 Nov: Open Sat, Closed Sun
7-8 Dec: Open
14-15 Dec: Closed
21-22 Dec: Open (Closed 25 Dec)

 

[Joe Paxton]

I'll just say this is nothing new and the phenomenon long predates the establishment of London Overground.

If it's getting more notice, I'd argue that's at least partly down to the success of the Overground in attracting passengers to what were, in times past, rather forgotten and overlooked rail routes, and helping them to fulfil their potential.

It's undoubtedly still an annoyance though! As always, check ahead when making your weekend plans...

 

[Geogregor]

If the DLR had gone to the supplier of the current trains who knew the signalling, rather than to the bottom bidder, they wouldn't be in the signalling pickle they are now in, where the system needs to handle both existing and new trains. They must have lost far more now than the apparent purchase saving.

There is absolutely zero guarantee that going back to the supplier of the old trains would create less problems.

Those suppliers would still have to source modern components from their suppliers etc. It is not like they can just create copy of product from 15 or 20 years ago. Most of components used then are no longer available and modern equivalents would have to be used. Which could create the same problems as the DLR is experiencing now.

I'm not saying that things couldn't be managed better but the idea that sticking to the old suppliers would guarantee fewer problems is just not correct.

 

[bluegoblin7]

If the DLR had gone to the supplier of the current trains who knew the signalling, rather than to the bottom bidder, they wouldn't be in the signalling pickle they are now in, where the system needs to handle both existing and new trains. They must have lost far more now than the apparent purchase saving.

Given that some of the challenges that have arisen whilst testing the new fleet have caused permanent changes to the legacy fleet, I am just going to call this what it is: utter, clueless wibble.

But even if we give credibility to the “supplier of the current trains” - Bombardier no longer exists. The current Alstom is not the same beast.

And even then - class 701s, anyone?

 

[Taunton]

Alas not wibble. The changes (to a fleet that has worked fine for 30 years) arise because of the unplanned signalling changes for the new stock, given that both have to run on the same system together. They have been testing the new trains for over two years now and seem to have got nowhere.

Bombardier were asked to tender for the new trains in 2017, and the contract was awarded in 2019. The company was not sold to Alstom until 2021, and the design and production facilities continue much as before.

 

[stuu]

It would be illegal for TfL to not put the contract out for public tender, so it's not even possible. It's also entirely possible that in the 10+ years since delivering the last units, the corporate knowledge of how it all works has been lost, as some of the engineers will have moved on.

Also, given that TfL are having to pay CAF to store the new trains, it's fairly safe to assume that a lot of the problems are not the fault of the manufacturer

 

[bluegoblin7]

Alas not wibble. The changes (to a fleet that has worked fine for 30 years) arise because of the unplanned signalling changes for the new stock, given that both have to run on the same system together. They have been testing the new trains for over two years now and seem to have got nowhere.

Bombardier were asked to tender for the new trains in 2017, and the contract was awarded in 2019. The company was not sold to Alstom until 2021, and the design and production facilities continue much as before.

Definitely wibble. The new trains have thrown up long-standing issues with the system, which would almost certainly have appeared with any new fleet.

The vast majority of the delay to the B23 stock is down to things other than the trains, but clearly that doesn’t fit your agenda.

 

[Taunton]

News article about constant weekend closures on the Overground, this at Wandsworth Road, where in the last year it has been closed 25 out of 53 weekends, making it just untenable for regular usage (and for the tenant of the station cafe, which the article focuses on):

And once again closed west of Wandsworth Road this coming Sunday, 23 March. What ever is being done?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

A lot of the Windrush line closures are related to Surrey Quays’ new entrance being built. Another full closure is coming this weekend.

Why on Earth would building a new entrance at Surrey Quays necessitate closing the entire line so often?

 

[Taunton]

I'll just add that travelling today, Saturday afternoon, on the Wapping to Canada Water stretch, the 5-car train, 2 minutes behind the previous one, was absolutely packed both ways. This on a stretch under the Thames where no bus alternative, regular or rail replacement, is available. But last weekend it was yet again closed.

Regarding the "new entrance at Surrey Quays, and why the entire line gets closed, one has to ask however was an architectural design of an entrance, whose construction is so disruptive to train services, allowed to begin with. If the buildability causes all this trouble then likely they have the wrong solution. Was minimising disruption during construction ever considered in the first place, by either railway or architect?

 

[bicbasher]

I'll just add that travelling today, Saturday afternoon, on the Wapping to Canada Water stretch, the 5-car train, 2 minutes behind the previous one, was absolutely packed both ways. This on a stretch under the Thames where no bus alternative, regular or rail replacement, is available. But last weekend it was yet again closed.

While the core and Clapham Junction branch of the Windrush was closed, there were 2tph on Saturday between New Cross Gate and West Croydon (extended to London Bridge between 7am-9pm) and 4tph between New Cross Gate and Sydenham with 2tph split between Crystal Palace and West Croydon on Sunday.

Logistically, it's easier for them to provide a shuttle service to West Croydon or Crystal Palace during core shutdowns.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Most of the closures on the Atlantic Lines are for Vic 5 resignalling. Vic 5 is an absolutely massive job. That line was also massively impact by Vic 4 resignalling as well, both going on at the same time. That's why there have been so many closures. That's due to commision next Christmas so the closures should drop on the Atlantic Lines after that. Atlatnic Lines is the stretch between Peckham Rye and Battersea Park that includes Wandsworth Road station.

 

[Skoodle]

I'll just add that travelling today, Saturday afternoon, on the Wapping to Canada Water stretch, the 5-car train, 2 minutes behind the previous one, was absolutely packed both ways. This on a stretch under the Thames where no bus alternative, regular or rail replacement, is available. But last weekend it was yet again closed.

Regarding the "new entrance at Surrey Quays, and why the entire line gets closed, one has to ask however was an architectural design of an entrance, whose construction is so disruptive to train services, allowed to begin with. If the buildability causes all this trouble then likely they have the wrong solution. Was minimising disruption during construction ever considered in the first place, by either railway or architect?

When they said "new entrance", it's a new station entrance on other side of road outside, including a new footbridge and lifts. There has been a lot of track level work that has gone on, including moving signals, installing a new secondary means of escape whilst the works go on - which involved fencing and PA and lighting alongside the track between the platform and tunnel entrance.

Not mentioned but some of the core closures on weekends have also been in regards to some resignalling that has occurred between Surrey Quays and Rotherhithe. These were commissioned and brought in to use 23rd February, so anything further will just be Surrey Quays station works. Most of the major works does appear to have been completed now, such as the large bridge across the line - I should imagine that future closures just because of Surrey Quays works will be less frequent.

I do remember the good old days of practically every weekend being closed on the core north of Shadwell whilst Whitechapel station works were being carried out.

 

[bicbasher]

The next Windrush core shutdown are late evening closures on Monday 19th and Tuesday 20th May followed by another weekend closure on the 12th and 13th July.

There's also a weekday closure during the school summer holidays from Monday 11th to Thursday 14th August.