TfL Procedural Error?

[tsodo1]

I recently got caught with my brother's 11-15 oyster. As expected, I received the first letter asking for my version of the events which I sent via email on time and fully accurate. I received a confirmation email but nothing more for 3 months until I finally received an order to court for this and a suspected 195 other offences. My inital response was not listed in the evidence section and seems to have been ignored. Does this give me leverage to negotiate with tfl out of court to avoid a criminal record? Or is this totally standard?
Thanks in advance

 

[furlong]

Firstly, how old are you?

 

[tsodo1]

Firstly, how old are you?

I am 20 years old

 

[Deafdoggie]

Have you used your brothers oyster on those 196 occasions?

 

[skyhigh]

My inital response was not listed in the evidence section and seems to have been ignored. Does this give me leverage to negotiate with tfl out of court to avoid a criminal record?

Short answer is no. They don't even need to ask for your response and are entirely free to proceed straight to prosecution without first asking for your side of the story.

TfL often prosecute offences involving misuse of discounted/free travel Oyster cards. If they believe you have used it on 196 occasions then I am not surprised that this is their decision.

 

[tsodo1]

Thank you very much. Do you think it is worth getting a lawyer to help minimise the ruling? I am yet to reply to the court order and I haven't decided whether it would be beneficial to plead guilty to the 195 other accusations. I want to avoid getting a criminal record at all costs and I hope that perhaps the fact that I'm a first offender may help, but it may be worth getting a lawyer to ensure this outcome. Nevertheless I'm undecided whether to sign for the other accusations as I don't know how it will influence the punishment and/or whether it will lead to another court order that may lead to more serious rulings. What do you think?

 

[Bertie the bus]

I think you need to be realistic here. If you were caught using your brother's Oyster card and TfL have decided to prosecute there is very little to no chance of you avoiding getting a criminal record. If you were caught in the act then whether you plead guilt or not guilty you will almost certainly be convicted.

You might wish to seek professional advice on whether to admit the other offences or not but if these are listed as being taken into consideration then admitting them will mean you won't be prosecuted for them but any punishment you receive will take the repeat offending into consideration.

 

[skyhigh]

I want to avoid getting a criminal record at all costs and I hope that perhaps the fact that I'm a first offender may help, but it may be worth getting a lawyer to ensure this outcome.

The blunt answer unfortunately is that you're very unlikely to get out of this without a conviction.

TfL almost always prosecute cases like these. This is not your first offence, it's the first time you've been caught. TfL seem to believe you're a serial offender.

 

[WesternLancer]

I want to avoid getting a criminal record at all costs and I hope that perhaps the fact that I'm a first offender may help, but it may be worth getting a lawyer to ensure this outcome.

If you want to avoid a record at "all costs" it implies you have no issue with paying the costs of the legal fees for help - so if that is the case then it can do no harm to pay for legal advice, it is surely better to have qualified legal advice than not have it, but it costs money to have that advice - there are firms that get mentioned on here that specialise in this work.

However, I doubt that a solicitor can guarantee you that they can ensure you get no criminal record / are not found guilty given you have been persistently offending. So you have to weigh up the chances of that against the cost of the legal fees.

You could probably get a quote from one or two firms to have an idea what you are might be asked to pay for legal help.

 

[tsodo1]

The blunt answer unfortunately is that you're very unlikely to get out of this without a conviction.

TfL almost always prosecute cases like these. This is not your first offence, it's the first time you've been caught. TfL seem to believe you're a serial offender.

In that case, what would happen if I did not plead guilty to the other offences? Would they attempt to follow it up with another investigation?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Feb 2024 ==

Have you used your brothers oyster on those 196 occasions?

On some but not all. However, I thought that it might be simpler to admit to all to shorten the case and end the investigation to avoid further cost

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Feb 2024 ==

If you want to avoid a record at "all costs" it implies you have no issue with paying the costs of the legal fees for help - so if that is the case then it can do no harm to pay for legal advice, it is surely better to have qualified legal advice than not have it, but it costs money to have that advice - there are firms that get mentioned on here that specialise in this work.

However, I doubt that a solicitor can guarantee you that they can ensure you get no criminal record / are not found guilty given you have been persistently offending. So you have to weigh up the chances of that against the cost of the legal fees.

You could probably get a quote from one or two firms to have an idea what you are might be asked to pay for legal help.

Hmmm so there is no way to come to an out of court agreement with them where I could pay an appropriate amount so they drop the charges?

 

[tsodo1]

I think you need to be realistic here. If you were caught using your brother's Oyster card and TfL have decided to prosecute there is very little to no chance of you avoiding getting a criminal record. If you were caught in the act then whether you plead guilt or not guilty you will almost certainly be convicted.

You might wish to seek professional advice on whether to admit the other offences or not but if these are listed as being taken into consideration then admitting them will mean you won't be prosecuted for them but any punishment you receive will take the repeat offending into consideration.

Thank you. Do you know anything about the details concerning the criminal record that they may give (i.e..how long it stays, DBS, etc)? Or does it's severity change on a case to case basis?

 

[John R]

Hmmm so there is no way to come to an out of court agreement with them where I could pay an appropriate amount so they drop the charges?

Our experience here is that TfL rarely offer out of court settlements, preferring to proceed to prosecution, and they take an even harder line view with misuse of passes.

So we need to manage your expectations of any success in that regard I’m afraid.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hmmm so there is no way to come to an out of court agreement with them where I could pay an appropriate amount so they drop the charges?

I agree with @Brissle Girl on this - the point is that you have persistently and deliberately evaded fares and this is a criminal offence. TfL take the view that punishment is in order both so you get the message and that others can see from this what happens and learn too - and that people who do pay their fares correctly appreciate that tough action is taken on those who do not.

You can ask TfLif they will consider an out of court settlement - but there is no automatic formula that you can use to guarantee achieving it from what I can see.

I'll stand corrected but I don't think I can think of other cases on here in recent times (last few years) involving the mis use of passes where TfL have agreed to settle instead of prosecute, but I may be wrong.

Having said this ppl do give useful advice on the criminal record that yo get and when it is spent etc - so hopefully someone with knowledge on that will post to explain. There must be loads of people who end up in that situation (fare dodgers found guilty), so I doubt it is career ending unless you are in certain jobs - in which case you may well be paid enough to afford a solicitor anyway...

 

[30907]

Thank you. Do you know anything about the details concerning the criminal record that they may give (i.e..how long it stays, DBS, etc)? Or does it's severity change on a case to case basis?

It will depend entirely on the offence you have been charged with. An offence under the Byelaws should be spent after a year, and should not appear on an ordinary DBS but may do so on an Enhanced one.

What will vary is the amount of compensation TfL can claim, and possibly the amount of your fine (I don't recall any reports on that here).

 

[Skymonster]

I am yet to reply to the court order and I haven't decided whether it would be beneficial to plead guilty to the 195 other accusations. I want to avoid getting a criminal record at all costs and I hope that perhaps the fact that I'm a first offender may help, but it may be worth getting a lawyer to ensure this outcome. Nevertheless I'm undecided whether to sign for the other accusations as I don't know how it will influence the punishment and/or whether it will lead to another court order that may lead to more serious rulings. What do you think?

From TfL’s current point of view you are NOT a first time offender - TfL believes you have offended 195 times before and the 196th was the occasion on which you were caught. Pleading guilty to the additional 195 offences will, if you are found guilty of the one offence they are taking you to court for, almost certainly mean it will cost you somewhat more than it would if you denied those 195 offences. However, it would also mean TfL would not get be able to have another go in court in future for any of those other 195 cases. The snag is only TfL knows what evidence they have for the other 195 offences - they may just suspect them based on the card use history but be unable to prove them, or they may have or obtain evidence such as CCTV that might enable another case or cases to be brought in future. Its a tough call for you: one court hearing, one [possible / likely] conviction, one [likely larger] payment - OR - one court hearing, one [possible / likely] conviction, one [likely lesser] payment, but also a risk they might bring charges for some of the other alleged offences if they have or find evidence.

Using a lawyer sometimes results in the ”payment” after being found guilty being lower / more realistic than it would be if the accused goes it alone as a lawyer may be better positioned to justify why the costs should be reduced, but of course a lawyer costs money. Its also very unlikely a lawyer will guarantee get you off without a conviction before you engage them, or do so after you have engaged them either - but they may very well try to on your behalf, and there’s always possibility TfL may see contact from a lawyer requesting an out of court settlement as carrying more weight than receiving such from an accused.

 

[tsodo1]

I understand... If I accept the other accused offences, then will the sentence be worsened, and in what way?

 

[John R]

I understand... If I accept the other accused offences, then will the sentence be worsened, and in what way?

It will cost you more money, mainly because of the compensation TfL will ask for. But that’s it, and at least you know that the case will be closed and TfL can’t come after you again, which is the risk if you don’t admit to the other instances.

 

[30907]

I understand... If I accept the other accused offences, then will the sentence be worsened, and in what way?

As I said upthread, it is possible the magistrates will increase the fine, but it will still have to remain within the guidelines for a single offence.

 

[Hadders]

TfL take misue of Zip Oyster cards very seriously and prosecution is the normal outcome. Involving a solicitor is highly unlikely to alter their decision to prosecute. To be blunt if someone evading their fares on 196 occasions isn't prosecuted you have to wonder how serious a case has to be to be prosecuted.

Other forum members have explained the impact of asking for the other offences to be taken into consideration. It's also worth considering that if you plead guilty (or are found guilty following a trial) then you will have to pay:

- A fine based on your income
- A surcharge of 40% of the value of the fine
- A contribution towards TfL's costs
- Compensation for the fares avoided

The fine is usually discounted by a third if you plead guilty at the earliest opportunity. Compensation for the fares avoided will be higher if you ask for the other offences to be taken into account.

Here's a link to TfL's Revenue Enforcement & Prosecutions Policy which you might find worth reading:

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/revenue-enforcement-and-prosecutions-policy.pdf