TfL possible prosecution - please advise?

[uhutack1]

Hi there, this is my first post - I hope it is in the correct thread.

I live in London usually walk to work as its a 15 minute journey (I occasional cycle) but if I have meetings that day I will hop on the bus from A (home) to B (work).

Last week I hopped on the bus, got on the back entrance and tapped my contactless bank card on the reader, and proceeded to go and sit upstairs without further issue.

Crucially, I had my headphones on when I tapped in, I also had them on on the upper deck and just before my stop I noted that two inspectors had boarded the bus. As I left the bus I instantly got out my card to let the inspector scan it (inspectors are common on my route) but the machine said my card had been declined due to insufficient funds.

I had used my card the previous evening on the same bus route, and I didn't realise my card had been declined when I tapped in because it was a busy bus and I was very foolishly playing music through my headphones so I didn't hear the 'double beep'.

Confused that my card had been declined I let the inspector scan again. The chip on my card is slightly worn, which I believed could possibly have been the cause of the issue, but the inspector confirmed it had been declined due to the lack of funds. I stupidly hadn't checked my balance on that account in the morning and a few prior purchases had indeed been withdrawn from my account.

I apologised immediately and when they asked if they could take my details I was in total shock. I asked if we could do so downstairs as I was about to alight the bus (this happened minutes away from my stop). I then gave them my full details on a random notepad they handed to me. They asked me if I had any ID on me, which I did not.

The inspector didn't issue me a penalty fare and instead said I should receive a letter about the incident in which I would be asked to give my full account.

This was a genuine and honest mistake. I wish I could wake up and start that morning again and check my bank balance and transfer funds into that account. I'm also aware I shouldn't have had my headphones on, and that I should have been aware of the display on the machine when tapping in. A string of errors on my behalf.

When I receive this letter what is the likely course of action? I have been unable to sleep or eat in the past week as I'm so terrified about getting a criminal record which could jeopardise my job prospects.

Is it wise to get a solicitor involved to look into settling out of court, if worst comes to worst? This is the first time I have been involved with any kind of inspector, and I have no prior cautions or criminal convictions and it is truly tearing me apart to even think of the consequences of my stupid, preventable actions.

 

[matt_world2004]

Tfl cannot see if your card has sufficent funds or not.

 

[tsr]

matt_world2004 is correct.

The most that TfL would know is that your card is "not authorised for travel", although this results in broadly the same outcome if you thought you'd touched in correctly but in fact had not. I would not be surprised if it is in breach of training for revenue staff checking contactless cards to be telling passengers that they are out of funds; there is no way they could find this information accurately on their card readers, and it was just a guess on their part. It would certainly be a matter for complaint if it had been a ticket check on a rail service within the London zones.

However, all this being said, none of this excuses you from paying the fare due.

I'm afraid that as this is a railway forum, and I am railway and not bus staff, I would not know the precise specifics of the procedures used to deal with bus passengers who had not paid correctly by contactless. The advice I would give is generic - to listen out for posts on this thread about experiences of any settlements that might have been done in the past. Also, don't lose sleep, and carry on eating. I appreciate it's easy enough for me to just say that, and that could be frustrating - but you need a clear head to react promptly to any letter which arrives on your doormat. Don't panic, as the company may find it better value to get some sort of fee from you.

 

[Wirewiper]

You won't get a criminal record (this assumes you have not been reported for fare evasion before). When you get the letter from TfL, reply with an honest account about what happened on that journey only - do not mention the previous journey. Be clear that you realise you should have checked that your card had registered properly (that's one mistake I don't think you will make again), and offer to pay the fare due plus reasonable costs. If they tell you you are being fined, pay it and that will be the end of the matter.

Unfortunately a lot of fare evasion occurs on New Routemasters, whereby people get on at the back entrance and don't touch in as they are not being observed, so it is understandable why TfL inspectors take a tough line.

 

[matt_world2004]

Bus inspectors will rarely attempt to prosecute instead issue a penalty fare unless intent can be proven and TfL do not do out of court settlements.

 

[uhutack1]

Tfl cannot see if your card has sufficent funds or not.

The card reader they had seemed to flash up saying 'insufficient funds', then when I tried to explain that I had tapped in and that I believed the issue to then be the damaged chip in my card they tapped it again and it said the same thing.

 

[uhutack1]

matt_world2004 is correct.

The most that TfL would know is that your card is "not authorised for travel", although this results in broadly the same outcome if you thought you'd touched in correctly but in fact had not. I would not be surprised if it is in breach of training for revenue staff checking contactless cards to be telling passengers that they are out of funds; there is no way they could find this information accurately on their card readers, and it was just a guess on their part. It would certainly be a matter for complaint if it had been a ticket check on a rail service within the London zones.

However, all this being said, none of this excuses you from paying the fare due.

I'm afraid that as this is a railway forum, and I am railway and not bus staff, I would not know the precise specifics of the procedures used to deal with bus passengers who had not paid correctly by contactless. The advice I would give is generic - to listen out for posts on this thread about experiences of any settlements that might have been done in the past. Also, don't lose sleep, and carry on eating. I appreciate it's easy enough for me to just say that, and that could be frustrating - but you need a clear head to react promptly to any letter which arrives on your doormat. Don't panic, as the company may find it better value to get some sort of fee from you.

Thanks for replying and clarifying the purpose of the forum, I just thought I would post in here as there was a lot of knowledgeable people around TfL issues.

Thanks for the advice, I am absolutely sick with worry.

Are you sure about the "not authorised for travel" part, I was in total shock but seem to recall the card reader saying something along the lines of "insufficient funds".

 

[matt_world2004]

The card reader they had seemed to flash up saying 'insufficient funds', then when I tried to explain that I had tapped in and that I believed the issue to then be the damaged chip in my card they tapped it again and it said the same thing.

It definitely didnt say insufficent funds the oyster scanners on a bus or train do not process the transaction in real time, the only way it would have said insufficent funds is if it was an oyster card not a contactless card.What happens when you scan the card is it stores a list of card numbers on the ticket machine.

The inspectors ticket scanner then downloads that list of numbers off the buses ticket machine(Or the inspector gets a printout of the last four numbers of every contactless card number that has touched their card on that trip) and will compare that number against your contactless card



Now if your contactless card is not on that list of numbers you are issued with a penalty fare

Sometimes the card will not scan on the card reader because the card issuer has blocked comtactless tramsactions with that card . The normal process when encountering a card like this is to issue a Penalty Fare

The inspectors device and buses ticket machine also has a list of debit cards that have been blocked from the TfL network. The circumstances to get on the list are:

1.)The card in question has encounted a revenue inspection on the rail network three times without being touched in

2.)The card in question has an unresolved debt to tfl or an TOC where TfL have not been able retrieve the funds for a touch in and touch out for over 24 hours (Realistically 48 hours once the bus has downloaded the data)

3.) The card has been reported stolen /out of date etc etc.

Now if an inspector finds a card on that blacklist it is always reported for prosecution because it may indicate intent (I am not sure what happens about the debt to tfl issue because sometimes transactions are declined by the card issuer temporarily or through no fault of the customer)

It sounds like your card is for whatever reason been blacklisted . The inspector generally will not know why it has been blacklisted but TfL will hold that data back at HQ . I would advise you think about why this might have happened if you have previously reported the card lost and then found it again or did you previously make a journey which TfL couldnt later retrieve the funds for

TfL generally do not accept out of court settlements and if it has been blacklisted for either reasons 1.) -or 3.) -the situation has the potential to be quite serious

It is possible that for whatever reason the revenue inspection device has erronously reported your card as being blacklisted. I do not know what happens in these circumstances but if later through checking the contactless transactions for the bus as showing a successful touch in I imagine that matter would be dropped.

 

[uhutack1]

It definitely didnt say insufficent funds the oyster scanners on a bus or train do not process the transaction in real time, the only way it would have said insufficent funds is if it was an oyster card not a contactless card.What happens when you scan the card is it stores a list of card numbers on the ticket machine.

The inspectors ticket scanner then downloads that list of numbers off the buses ticket machine(Or the inspector gets a printout of the last four numbers of every contactless card number that has touched their card on that trip) and will compare that number against your contactless card



Now if your contactless card is not on that list of numbers you are issued with a penalty fare

Sometimes the card will not scan on the card reader because the card issuer has blocked comtactless tramsactions with that card . The normal process when encountering a card like this is to issue a Penalty Fare

The inspectors device and buses ticket machine also has a list of debit cards that have been blocked from the TfL network. The circumstances to get on the list are:

1.)The card in question has encounted a revenue inspection on the rail network three times without being touched in

2.)The card in question has an unresolved debt to tfl or an TOC where TfL have not been able retrieve the funds for a touch in and touch out for over 24 hours (Realistically 48 hours once the bus has downloaded the data)

3.) The card has been reported stolen /out of date etc etc.

Now if an inspector finds a card on that blacklist it is always reported for prosecution because it may indicate intent (I am not sure what happens about the debt to tfl issue because sometimes transactions are declined by the card issuer temporarily or through no fault of the customer)

It sounds like your card is for whatever reason been blacklisted . The inspector generally will not know why it has been blacklisted but TfL will hold that data back at HQ . I would advise you think about why this might have happened if you have previously reported the card lost and then found it again or did you previously make a journey which TfL couldnt later retrieve the funds for

TfL generally do not accept out of court settlements and if it has been blacklisted for either reasons 1.) -or 3.) -the situation has the potential to be quite serious

It is possible that for whatever reason the revenue inspection device has erronously reported your card as being blacklisted. I do not know what happens in these circumstances but if later through checking the contactless transactions for the bus as showing a successful touch in I imagine that matter would be dropped.

^
Thanks Matt for clarifying this, I was almost 100% it said 'insufficient funds' because it turned out that my card did indeed have insufficient funds and it was the inspector who altered me to this in the midst of my confusion, *after* they had read the message on the reader after scanning my card.

As I understand it you are saying that even though I tapped in, the bus machine did not recognise this when compared with my tap in on the inspector's reader.

If the inspector was going to give me a penalty fare would they not have just issued it there and then, rather than telling me to anticipate a letter?

I seriously doubt my card has been blacklisted, I used it 12 hours previous on the same route and the fare was withdrawn. To your points:

1) As I mentioned this is the first time I have ever interacted with an inspector
2) There is no debt to TfL on the card as far as I am aware
3) Despite the dodgy chip the bank card is mine, it's never been reported as lost or stolen - in fact it's only a few months old

Hope this information helps build a clearer picture of the situation and sorry for the additional questions.

 

[matt_world2004]

Ok search for tfl contactless journey history in google follow the link on the TfL website for getting an unregistered contactless journey history , see if it shows
1.)The bus journey in question
2.)If there is a debt to TfL on the card.

Out of curiosity did you travel on any tfl services the day beforehand /two days beforehand and was this bus journey early in the morning?

 

[uhutack1]

Ok search for tfl contactless journey history in google follow the link on the TfL website for getting an unregistered contactless journey history , see if it shows
1.)The bus journey in question
2.)If there is a debt to TfL on the card.

Out of curiosity did you travel on any tfl services the day beforehand /two days beforehand and was this bus journey early in the morning?

Thank you once more Matt. It shows the journey from the previous evening, but not the journey in question.

There is red text stating: This card is currently not approved for travel

 

[matt_world2004]

Thank you once more Matt. It shows the journey from the previous evening, but not the journey in question.

There is red text stating: This card is currently not approved for travel

Would you have had sufficent funds on the card for that journey?

 

[uhutack1]

Yes it's in the payments section which I believe means it's been cleared. I see that failed revenue checks can result in cards being no longer approved which is likely the issue.

Is there anywhere for me to go from here than sit and wait it out? They implied they'd be sending a letter for me to document my side of the experience, so I guess this means a penalty fare is out of the question? I am absolutely terrified.

 

[MG11]

Hi there, this is my first post - I hope it is in the correct thread.

I live in London usually walk to work as its a 15 minute journey (I occasional cycle) but if I have meetings that day I will hop on the bus from A (home) to B (work).

Last week I hopped on the bus, got on the back entrance and tapped my contactless bank card on the reader, and proceeded to go and sit upstairs without further issue.

Crucially, I had my headphones on when I tapped in, I also had them on on the upper deck and just before my stop I noted that two inspectors had boarded the bus. As I left the bus I instantly got out my card to let the inspector scan it (inspectors are common on my route) but the machine said my card had been declined due to insufficient funds.

I had used my card the previous evening on the same bus route, and I didn't realise my card had been declined when I tapped in because it was a busy bus and I was very foolishly playing music through my headphones so I didn't hear the 'double beep'.

Confused that my card had been declined I let the inspector scan again. The chip on my card is slightly worn, which I believed could possibly have been the cause of the issue, but the inspector confirmed it had been declined due to the lack of funds. I stupidly hadn't checked my balance on that account in the morning and a few prior purchases had indeed been withdrawn from my account.

I apologised immediately and when they asked if they could take my details I was in total shock. I asked if we could do so downstairs as I was about to alight the bus (this happened minutes away from my stop). I then gave them my full details on a random notepad they handed to me. They asked me if I had any ID on me, which I did not.

The inspector didn't issue me a penalty fare and instead said I should receive a letter about the incident in which I would be asked to give my full account.

This was a genuine and honest mistake. I wish I could wake up and start that morning again and check my bank balance and transfer funds into that account. I'm also aware I shouldn't have had my headphones on, and that I should have been aware of the display on the machine when tapping in. A string of errors on my behalf.

When I receive this letter what is the likely course of action? I have been unable to sleep or eat in the past week as I'm so terrified about getting a criminal record which could jeopardise my job prospects.

Is it wise to get a solicitor involved to look into settling out of court, if worst comes to worst? This is the first time I have been involved with any kind of inspector, and I have no prior cautions or criminal convictions and it is truly tearing me apart to even think of the consequences of my stupid, preventable actions.

It would be very wise to seek legal advice. This is something that TFL will take very seriously. Do you have any previous Penalty Fares on London buses? Were you interviewed under caution?

 

[matt_world2004]

Yes it's in the payments section which I believe means it's been cleared. I see that failed revenue checks can result in cards being no longer approved which is likely the issue.

Is there anywhere for me to go from here than sit and wait it out? She implied they'd be sending a letter for me to document my side of the experience, so I guess this means a penalty fare is out of the question? I am absolutely terrified.

It sounds like your card is still blacklisted . I speculate they tried to take funds out of the card for the previous days travel and couldnt resulting in the card being blacklisted.This is less serious than it being blacklisted for other reasons.Contact TfL and find out if the card is blacklisted and why.Pay the debt of the previous days travel to get the card unblacklisted and wait. It is possible because of the nature of the blacklisting that they will accept an out of court settlement equivilent to a PF but there is no guarantee of this(I am suprised though that the inspectors /buses ticket machine was updated that quickly though because sometimes early in the morning cards can be temporarily blacklisted due to delays in payments from the card issuer,so it is often unwise to update the ticket machines early in the morning)

Screenshot your journey history as it appears and keep it as evidence for yourself

 

[uhutack1]

It would be very wise to seek legal advice. This is something that TFL will take very seriously. Do you have any previous Penalty Fares on London buses? Were you interviewed under caution?

I don't have any previous penalty fares that I am aware of, as I say I have never before interacted with an inspector.

I wasn't interviewed at all. The inspector took me downstairs, handed me a notepad, asked for my details and let me off as it was approaching my stop before telling me to anticipate a letter.

It sounds like your card is still blacklisted . I speculate they tried to take funds out of the card for the previous days travel and couldnt resulting in the card being blacklisted.This is less serious than it being blacklisted for other reasons.Contact TfL and find out if the card is blacklisted and why.Pay the debt of the previous days travel to get the card unblacklisted and wait. It is possible because of the nature of the blacklisting that they will accept an out of court settlement equivilent to a PF but there is no guarantee of this(I am suprised though that the inspectors /buses ticket machine was updated that quickly though because sometimes early in the morning cards can be temporarily blacklisted due to delays in payments from the card issuer,so it is often unwise to update the ticket machines early in the morning)

Screenshot your journey history as it appears and keep it as evidence for yourself

I will contact them in the morning, but I can see that the money for this transaction has come out of my bank account so I'm a bit confused.

 

[MG11]

Yes it's in the payments section which I believe means it's been cleared. I see that failed revenue checks can result in cards being no longer approved which is likely the issue.

Is there anywhere for me to go from here than sit and wait it out? They implied they'd be sending a letter for me to document my side of the experience, so I guess this means a penalty fare is out of the question? I am absolutely terrified.

You can begin to seek legal advice, set the ball rolling with that so to speak, but I would wait until TFL write to you before you contact them. We will be able to have a better understanding of how they want to go about this once they have sent the initial letter. Was the officer aware of the previous unpaid journey you made as well?

 

[matt_world2004]

You can begin to seek legal advice, set the ball rolling with that so to speak, but I would wait until TFL write to you before you contact them. We will be able to have a better understanding of how they want to go about this once they have sent the initial letter. Was the officer aware of the previous unpaid journey you made as well?

The officer wouldnt have been all they would have known is that the card had been blacklisted not why. That being said its an unfortunate coincidence that the bus inspector and bus appear to have downloaded the data that morning, if only one of them had the OP wouldnt have been in this situation,

 

[uhutack1]

You can begin to seek legal advice, set the ball rolling with that so to speak, but I would wait until TFL write to you before you contact them. We will be able to have a better understanding of how they want to go about this once they have sent the initial letter. Was the officer aware of the previous unpaid journey you made as well?

Thanks, so you don't think I should call them tomorrow then? I should wait and see if they contact me? From the looks of my card having been made unavailable it looks like they might.

The officer wouldnt have been all they would have known is that the card had been blacklisted not why. That being said its an unfortunate coincidence that the bus inspector and bus appear to have downloaded the data that morning, if only one of them had the OP wouldnt have been in this situation,

There was no previously unpaid fare, this money (for the previous journey) was withdrawn from my bank account.

How likely is a penalty fare rather than a prosecution if I explain that it was a complete genuine mistake. I'm so angry at myself as I barely travel by bus.

 

[matt_world2004]

Thanks, so you don't think I should call them tomorrow then? I should wait and see if they contact me? From the looks of my card having been made unavailable it looks like they might.

Contact them to find out why the card is not valid for travel and resolve it if you can

There was no previously unpaid fare, this money (for the previous journey) was withdrawn from my bank account.

How likely is a penalty fare rather than a prosecution if I explain that it was a complete genuine mistake. I'm so angry at myself as I barely travel by bus.

You will not be issued with a penalty fare at this stage I dont believe.However it is possible they will not prosecute either await the letter and document your journey history .

 

[uhutack1]

Contact them to find out why the card is not valid for travel and resolve it if you can

You will not be issued with a penalty fare at this stage I dont believe.However it is possible they will not prosecute either await the letter and document your journey history .

Appreciate your insight, I will await the letter and update in the coming weeks.

 

[gray1404]

As others have said, contact TfL customer service and find out why the card is blacklisted and try to solve that at least. The sooner you do that the better.

 

[MG11]

Appeals are not usually heard over the telephone.

 

[matt_world2004]

Appeals are not usually heard over the telephone.

Finding out why the card was blacklisted is though

 

[Puffing Devil]

It would be very wise to seek legal advice. This is something that TFL will take very seriously. Do you have any previous Penalty Fares on London buses? Were you interviewed under caution?

You can begin to seek legal advice, set the ball rolling with that so to speak, but I would wait until TFL write to you before you contact them. We will be able to have a better understanding of how they want to go about this once they have sent the initial letter. Was the officer aware of the previous unpaid journey you made as well?

Absolutely no point in reaching for a lawyer yet. There is nothing substantial to work on and many details yet to be confirmed. There is no rush and engaging a lawyer will cost you money that you may well need for a settlement.

Contact them to find out why the card is not valid for travel and resolve it if you can
You will not be issued with a penalty fare at this stage I dont believe.However it is possible they will not prosecute either await the letter and document your journey history .

This ^ is good advice. See if you can find out the issue with the card and wait for a letter.

 

[uhutack1]

Absolutely no point in reaching for a lawyer yet. There is nothing substantial to work on and many details yet to be confirmed. There is no rush and engaging a lawyer will cost you money that you may well need for a settlement.



This ^ is good advice. See if you can find out the issue with the card and wait for a letter.

Thanks for contributing and helping.

If I click on "requires approval" it is taking me to a payment page - so I assume, as Matt predicted, there has been an issue with a previous payment - unbeknownst to me as there are no outstanding payments listed in the 'journeys' section - which has perhaps been flagged up on the system when my card was scanned by the inspector.

My card, however, was down to insufficient funds at the time they scanned it so I'm really not sure.

I will pay just now and see what happens. I'm not sure if this increases or decreases the likelihood of me getting a letter.

 

[MikeWh]

@MG11 - With respect you have little to no knowledge of the specifics of Oyster or contactless revenue protection matters.

@uhutack1 - The card will have been blacklisted because of the failed collection. The collection probably failed because you were out of funds. Blacklist status is updated very frequently these days so I'm not surprised that both bus reader and inspectors reader had that data.

If the TfL website is inviting you to pay the outstanding amount then absolutely do so if you can. This ought to result in your card being unblacklisted for your future travel. I would then contact the helpdesk for advice about the matter of yesterdays fare.

 

[uhutack1]

Thanks @MikeWh do you reckon if I call up tomorrow and explain why it was likely declined when I tapped in they will take a more lenient approach?

What is the best way to explain it in TfL terminology, does this make sense?

My card was declined as I was boarding the bus and I did not notice
I then failed an on-board inspection due to blacklisted card not registering
I have since paid the amount that was holding back the transaction - my card is no longer blacklisted
What can be done about yesterday's incident so I can rectify a genuine human error?

 

[matt_world2004]

Thanks @MikeWh do you reckon if I call up tomorrow and explain why it was likely declined when I tapped in they will take a more lenient approach?

What is the best way to explain it in TfL terminology, does this make sense?

My card was declined as I was boarding the bus and I did not notice
I then failed an on-board inspection due to blacklisted card not registering
I have since paid the amount that was holding back the transaction - my card is no longer blacklisted
What can be done about yesterday's incident so I can rectify a genuine human error?

Await the letter from TfL dont contact them about it yet.

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks @MikeWh do you reckon if I call up tomorrow and explain why it was likely declined when I tapped in they will take a more lenient approach?

What is the best way to explain it in TfL terminology, does this make sense?

My card was declined as I was boarding the bus and I did not notice
I then failed an on-board inspection due to blacklisted card not registering
I have since paid the amount that was holding back the transaction - my card is no longer blacklisted
What can be done about yesterday's incident so I can rectify a genuine human error?

That seems a sensible way of wording it, sticking to the facts. It may be that they will say you have to wait for the letter, but I'd be inclined to give this a try in case there is anything else they can do. It won't do any harm in any event. If they do say you have to wait, then you have done everything you can at this stage.