TFL Penalty Ticket

[Bletchleyite]

I strongly suggest anyone to pay in the spot and they accept bank card long number. I should call my family and ask one to avoid all these headache.
But I have so many scarm calls and messages. That is why I do not want to provide long bank card number.
If they ask you cash payment, just pay for it first. I am not sure it is correct or not. But we only lost £40 and could avoid this issue.
I never know they could go back to the office and change their mind to send me a verification letter in stead. Hopefully NOT.

Asking for the card number seems very bizarre to me. For on the spot should they not be producing a payment terminal? Has anyone else had and paid one (or is a TfL RPI) and is able to confirm what the payment mechanism for on the spot is?

What was he going to do with the details? Enter them in a terminal or write them down? The latter is probably in breach of the card company merchant agreement for an in-person transaction. The former might have been a slightly-off-process offer to help, i.e. if you don't have your card on you but know the number, expiry and CVV (as some people do) you can still pay.

 

[Tracy Le]

Sorry, having checked it is two, not three. Maybe you missed one?

It comes out 1 beep first. After 2-3 seconds, it comes out another 2 beeps.
But normally we just walk past when we hear 1 beep when we are in rush.
No more rush, just stand in front of the machine and wait for the beep and screen shows card accpet.
This is the first time I hear that £1.5 will cause you a crimial record. Another a few hundred pounds for a solistor fee to solve it out.
Very serious and big lesson.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It comes out 1 beep first. After 2-3 seconds, it comes out another 2 beeps.

If you get one beep first, then two beeps, that generally means it did tap in correctly. Sometimes the terminal picks up a second tap which fails after the first one which succeeded.

 

[Tracy Le]

They say they could take card payment, cash payment and card long number and expire date.
I only have my iphone with me. They could not take apple pay.
I read some stories that someone leave their name and address if they could not pay on the sopt. They received a higher penalty fee or verification letter in stead a few weeks later.
It make the case worse.

Asking for the card number seems very bizarre to me. For on the spot should they not be producing a payment terminal? Has anyone else had and paid one (or is a TfL RPI) and is able to confirm what the payment mechanism for on the spot is?

 

[WesternLancer]

I strongly suggest anyone to pay in the spot and they accept bank card long number. I should call my family and ask one to avoid all these headache.
But I have so many scarm calls and messages. That is why I do not want to provide long bank card number.
If they ask you cash payment, just pay for it first. I am not sure it is correct or not. But we only lost £40 and could avoid this issue.
I never know they could go back to the office and change their mind to send me a verification letter in stead. Hopefully NOT.

I think we need to know exactly what the TfL payment policy for penalty fares is and the process staff are required to carry out. If I was in your position I would already have written a formal letter or e-mail to them to ask this.

I would specifically ask in such a letter if it "is normal practice for their staff to ask your to give you bank card (debit or credit card) payment details to staff for their staff to write down to process a penalty fare payment as a 'customer not present' form of payment". I would also copy that letter to your Member of the London Assembly.

This would be a better use of time than worrying about what will happen next.

If you are unsure of your written English feel free to post your draft message here and I will happily suggest any alterations to it.

 

[Tracy Le]

I think we need to know exactly what the TfL payment policy for penalty fares is and the process staff are required to carry out. If I was in your position I would already have written a formal letter or e-mail to them to ask this.

I would specifically ask in such a letter if it "is normal practice for their staff to ask your to give you bank card (debit or credit card) payment details to staff for their staff to write down to process a penalty fare payment as a 'customer not present' form of payment". I would also copy that letter to your Member of the London Assembly.

This would be a better use of time than worrying about what will happen next.

If you are unsure of your written English feel free to post your draft message here and I will happily suggest any alterations to it.

Thank you, Westernlancer.
I may try to write an anonymous letter. I am very appreciated for your help to check my writing. I will let you know when I write a draft letter.

 

[skyhigh]

I may try to write an anonymous letter.

I presume you mean you'll write a letter and post an anonymised copy on here? There's no point at all sending an anonymous letter to TfL.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you, Westernlancer.
I may try to write an anonymous letter. I am very appreciated for your help to check my writing. I will let you know when I write a draft letter.

If you write I am afraid that an anonymous letter will not be given much consideration. Where I have worked anonymous letters are usually just discarded with no action taken (unless it was made clear it was a 'whistleblowing' compliant against potential criminal activity within the organisation for example, which they may then decide to investigate).

You would of course also never find out what the actual process was supposed to be.

If you made an effort to touch on and pay, but your payment method did not work unknown to you, you have nothing to hide, and no reason to act anonymously in my view. Especially since you already presumably gave your name and address when you were stopped, and they took your description IIRC.

 

[Trackman]

Since this is the DLR (not a bus) and Apple Pay acts like contactless card (not an Oyster card), surely the inspector would not be able to see if it has been touched in or not? If the "card" is successfully read they should only see if the "card" has been blacklisted (due to too many previous failed inspections) or not? If the inspected "card" had not been touched in, then at the end of the day or something a maximum fare or something would be charged.

This is correct, unless these new devices have been rolled out yet.
See my post below..

I talked to TFL staff just now. One staff tell me their machine could not read apple pay at all. Nobody knows your Apple Pay touch in or out.

TfL say their RIDs (Revenue inspection devices) can read Apple Pay.
There was a big thing about this years ago as it was reported that ticket inspectors couldnt read Apple Pay, TfL came back saying 'Oh yes we can!'. Maybe there was a short period were they had difficulties.
Apparently there is going to be (or is now) a new super RID that can call up TfL history on demand with Apple Pay and contactless cards. I imagine this feature would have been used in the case of the OP.

 

[Tracy Le]

If you write I am afraid that an anonymous letter will not be given much consideration. Where I have worked anonymous letters are usually just discarded with no action taken (unless it was made clear it was a 'whistleblowing' compliant against potential criminal activity within the organisation for example, which they may then decide to investigate).

You would of course also never find out what the actual process was supposed to be.

If you made an effort to touch on and pay, but your payment method did not work unknown to you, you have nothing to hide, and no reason to act anonymously in my view. Especially since you already presumably gave your name and address when you were stopped, and they took your description IIRC.

Thank you. When they asked me to pay cash or told them a long card number. They even showed me how to log into a banking app and find the long card number. ( I tried it when I was back home. My banking app does not show this).
I said to them it is not safe to tell someone long card number and experi date. Also my full name and address as well. It sounds like a bit ....
They were very unhappy with me after all these and considered I did not want to pay them at all. They showed me their ID (Only shows me the cover, I could not see anything). They said that Do you want to call the Police to come？
It sounds like I challenged them.
I will wait for the TFL letter to come and find out what happen.

 

[island]

So in summary:

1. OP had not touched in
2. Upon seeing an inspector she turned around and sought to get back on another train.*
3. When inspected and the inspector believed she had no ticket and attempted to issue a penalty fare, she had no cash.
4. She was offered the option to pay by card** but declined because it "feels like fraud". She demanded a "ticket to pay later".
5. She was informed that if she was not prepared to pay, the penalty fare would be cancelled and she would be reported for prosecution.
6. A report for prosecution was duly made.

*The OP said she was turning back to go home, and at a later stage suggested she was going back because she had "forgotten a file". It seems a very large coincidence that the realisation of the forgotten file happened right at the moment she saw an inspector. I suspect her actual plan was to go back one stop and get off there, avoiding the inspectors, and walk to her final destination.
**It is not always economical or feasible to provide every last inspector with an electronic card payment terminal; it is not unknown for payments to be taken via a secure web portal.

Everything else is flannel.

I would not expect that the option to pay a penalty fare will be restored; the next step is to wait for the letter about the prosecution report.

 

[75A]

So in summary:

1. OP had not touched in
2. Upon seeing an inspector she turned around and sought to get back on another train.*
3. When inspected and the inspector believed she had no ticket and attempted to issue a penalty fare, she had no cash.
4. She was offered the option to pay by card** but declined because it "feels like fraud". She demanded a "ticket to pay later".
5. She was informed that if she was not prepared to pay, the penalty fare would be cancelled and she would be reported for prosecution.
6. A report for prosecution was duly made.

*The OP said she was turning back to go home, and at a later stage suggested she was going back because she had "forgotten a file". It seems a very large coincidence that the realisation of the forgotten file happened right at the moment she saw an inspector. I suspect her actual plan was to go back one stop and get off there, avoiding the inspectors, and walk to her final destination.
**It is not always economical or feasible to provide every last inspector with an electronic card payment terminal; it is not unknown for payments to be taken via a secure web portal.

Everything else is flannel.

I would not expect that the option to pay a penalty fare will be restored; the next step is to wait for the letter about the prosecution report.

The same way I read it.

 

[Tracy Le]

This is correct, unless these new devices have been rolled out yet.
See my post below..

TfL say their RIDs (Revenue inspection devices) can read Apple Pay.
There was a big thing about this years ago as it was reported that ticket inspectors couldnt read Apple Pay, TfL came back saying 'Oh yes we can!'. Maybe there was a short period were they had difficulties.
Apparently there is going to be (or is now) a new super RID that can call up TfL history on demand with Apple Pay and contactless cards. I imagine this feature would have been used in the case of the OP.

Normally I use oyster card for my travelling. My oyster card history should show the record I touch in and out everyday.
When I forget to bring my oyster card, I will use my mobile app to touch in and out.
I have no idea why this sounds like a small thing make the life so difficult.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Someone asking me for card number, expiry date and CVV would sound like fraud. I would not offer card payment in person other than using a genuine looking card terminal.

It is this that doesn't add up.

 

[Tracy Le]

So in summary:

1. OP had not touched in
2. Upon seeing an inspector she turned around and sought to get back on another train.*
3. When inspected and the inspector believed she had no ticket and attempted to issue a penalty fare, she had no cash.
4. She was offered the option to pay by card** but declined because it "feels like fraud". She demanded a "ticket to pay later".
5. She was informed that if she was not prepared to pay, the penalty fare would be cancelled and she would be reported for prosecution.
6. A report for prosecution was duly made.

*The OP said she was turning back to go home, and at a later stage suggested she was going back because she had "forgotten a file". It seems a very large coincidence that the realisation of the forgotten file happened right at the moment she saw an inspector. I suspect her actual plan was to go back one stop and get off there, avoiding the inspectors, and walk to her final destination.
**It is not always economical or feasible to provide every last inspector with an electronic card payment terminal; it is not unknown for payments to be taken via a secure web portal.

Everything else is flannel.

I would not expect that the option to pay a penalty fare will be restored; the next step is to wait for the letter about the prosecution report.

I feel sad how you read from me.
Number 3 it sould like fraud for me. Normally penalty fare is paid online or by card. Maybe I don't know we could pay by cash.
Number 4 I am not sure you will tell someone the long card number and expeir date?
Number 5 and 6 are not right.

 

[island]

I feel sad how you read from me.
Number 3 it sould like fraud for me. Normally penalty fare is paid online or by card. Maybe I don't know we could pay by cash.

Do you have a lot of experience of paying penalty fares?

Number 4 I am not sure you will tell someone the long card number and expeir date?

It's common to provide these when making a payment.

Number 5 and 6 are not right.

In what respect? What is not right about them? You said yourself that...

Keep saying payit now, you are not in trouble and you will not have any crimial record. If you refuse to pay, you will be in the fare evasion

That is what I wrote at 5, is it not?

As for 6, you certainly seem to have been reported for prosecution. Why do you think that is wrong?

 

[Tracy Le]

Do you have a lot of experience of paying penalty fares?

It's common to provide these when making a payment.

In what respect? What is not right about them? You said yourself that...

That is what I wrote at 5, is it not?

As for 6, you certainly seem to have been reported for prosecution. Why do you think that is wrong?

I only have one penalty fare for rubbish. It is the builders put the rubbish outside the street. The police found it and issued me a ticket. I contact the building company regarding this issue.
I paid this via bank transfer or card payment. Only once.

They just told me wait for the TFL letter. Also I confirm with them if I pay within 21 days, it is still £40.

I do not receive any letter so far. Only 2 days ago.

 

[WesternLancer]

I only have one penalty fare for rubbish. It is the builders put the rubbish outside the street. The police found it and issued me a ticket. I contact the building company regarding this issue.
I paid this via bank transfer or card payment. Only once.

They just told me wait for the TFL letter. Also I confirm with them if I pay within 21 days, it is still £40.

I do not receive any letter so far. Only 2 days ago.

As a side issue I would not assume the process for fines / penalties associated with dumped rubbish (or often called fly tipping) issued by a local council staff, community protection officers or police would be the same as Penalty Fare process from TfL, or that there would be any automatic cross reference to those records. The process may seem similar however.

I think you juts need to wait for the letter from TfL - as I said above this may take perhaps around 6 weeks at least, possibly longer.

If you have had it conformed that you will then have the option of paying at the rate of £40 you would seem to have had at least part of your original question answered.

 

[Tracy Le]

As a side issue I would not assume the process for fines / penalties associated with dumped rubbish (or often called fly tipping) issued by a local council staff, community protection officers or police would be the same as Penalty Fare process from TfL, or that there would be any automatic cross reference to those records. The process may seem similar however.

I think you juts need to wait for the letter from TfL - as I said above this may take perhaps around 6 weeks at least, possibly longer.

If you have had it conformed that you will then have the option of paying at the rate of £40 you would seem to have had at least part of your original question answered.

Thank you so much.
I will wait for the letter so far.
I may not reply any more message after this one.
I am appreciated everyone's reply and I am so sorry for my poor english.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you so much.
I will wait for the letter so far.
I may not reply any more message after this one.
I am appreciated everyone's reply and I am so sorry for my poor english.

No need to apologise for poor English. That alone, if you are not a fluent speaker, can be a perfectly good reason why you need help on this forum. I think all of us can put ourselves in the position of a ticketing difficulty in a place where we do not speak the language well.

But not sure there is much more advice to be given until you get your letter - it may be that you should ask for the thread to be locked at this stage and then ask for it to be re-opened when you have the letter and need any more advice.

Good luck.

 

[Tracy Le]

No need to apologise for poor English. That alone, if you are not a fluent speaker, can be a perfectly good reason why you need help on this forum. I think all of us can put ourselves in the position of a ticketing difficulty in a place where we do not speak the language well.

But not sure there is much more advice to given until you get your letter - it may be that you should ask for the thread to be locked at this stage and then ask for it to be re-opened when you have the letter and need any more advice.

Good luck.

I am very appreciate your help and advise.

 

[AlterEgo]

So in summary:

1. OP had not touched in
2. Upon seeing an inspector she turned around and sought to get back on another train.*
3. When inspected and the inspector believed she had no ticket and attempted to issue a penalty fare, she had no cash.
4. She was offered the option to pay by card** but declined because it "feels like fraud". She demanded a "ticket to pay later".
5. She was informed that if she was not prepared to pay, the penalty fare would be cancelled and she would be reported for prosecution.
6. A report for prosecution was duly made.

*The OP said she was turning back to go home, and at a later stage suggested she was going back because she had "forgotten a file". It seems a very large coincidence that the realisation of the forgotten file happened right at the moment she saw an inspector. I suspect her actual plan was to go back one stop and get off there, avoiding the inspectors, and walk to her final destination.
**It is not always economical or feasible to provide every last inspector with an electronic card payment terminal; it is not unknown for payments to be taken via a secure web portal.

Everything else is flannel.

I would not expect that the option to pay a penalty fare will be restored; the next step is to wait for the letter about the prosecution report.

Yes, this seems to be an accurate summary.

If it was a single plain clothes "inspector" at a random shack on the DLR I would think the OP had good reason to suspect it was fraud. Six uniformed officers at Shadwell doesn't seem reasonable to suspect fraud. The bit I have bolded seems most relevant.