TFL & "Managed Decline"

[Horizon22]

On Friday I was on the 390 from Victoria to Euston, a journey that usually takes just 20 mins, was nearer to 40 mins, there was little traffic and the lights were in favour of road vehicles, the only bit of traffic was toward the end of my journey on the Euston Road, but that’s always heavy in traffic anyway and wouldn’t have added any more than 5 mins usually, I agree that buses are moving much slower.

Because congestion has gotten worse. Obviously buses aren't a segregated transport. The road network in London really can't expand (nor should it anyway in my opinion and active transport modes should take priority) so if you keep throwing in personal cars - the average occupancy of which must be <2.0 people - congestion increases exponentially, not in linear fashion due to the impacts upon surrounding junctions & roads.

 

[Edsmith]

Because congestion has gotten worse. Obviously buses aren't a segregated transport. The road network in London really can't expand (nor should it anyway in my opinion and active transport modes should take priority) so if you keep throwing in personal cars - the average occupancy of which must be <2.0 people - congestion increases exponentially, not in linear fashion due to the impacts upon surrounding junctions & roads.

But it's not because of congestion. I've had similar experiences myself and it's down to drivers sitting at stops wasting time.

 

[endicomark69@g]

But it's not because of congestion. I've had similar experiences myself and it's down to drivers sitting at stops wasting time.

Well Congestion in London is worse than it was in the past, even the Pandemic only thinned things out for a while. But it doesn't account for a doubling of your journey time if road conditions were as you described.

I had to use a 44 bus from Battersea Park Rd to Tooting twice last week, on both journeys the road conditions (even the hideous Wandsworth one-way!) we're pretty benign/free flowing and yet the bus "sat" at Wandsworth Southside on both journeys with the usual "the driver has been blah blah" playing and then a further four minutes at a stop on Garrett Lane - both Journeys! That's not random, that's sitting to time.

It's particularly galling when the bus is mostly full by that point and a good half of all passengers are very much in the not-bothering camp with masking now. And while sitting there burning that 4/5 mins a 270 glides past anyway and disappears into the distance.

This pattern of operation is NOT helpful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On high frequency London services operating on a headway basis it is not classic waiting for time, it is waiting to regularise the service (i.e. because buses have bunched and need unbunching). It definitely IS helpful to the "greater good" to keep the service regular rather than bunched even if it causes you mild irritation.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Perhaps now, but I am sure there are people who want an EV and already find it expensive enough to switch.

I’m an EV driver. Why shouldn’t I pay the CC? My car may not have tailpipe emissions but it still causes congestion. It’s a congestion charge. I should pay the same as an ICE car. ULEZ is different as that is an emissions charge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m an EV driver. Why shouldn’t I pay the CC? My car may not have tailpipe emissions but it still causes congestion. It’s a congestion charge. I should pay the same as an ICE car. ULEZ is different as that is an emissions charge.

It's very much become an emissions charge, but I'd agree that with the ULEZ covering basically the same area it should go back to being purely a congestion charge and thus be charged to everyone on four (or more) wheels, yes.

 

[cjmillsnun]

It's very much become an emissions charge, but I'd agree that with the ULEZ covering basically the same area it should go back to being purely a congestion charge and thus be charged to everyone on four (or more) wheels, yes.

The cleaner vehicle discount is due to go in 2025.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The cleaner vehicle discount is due to go in 2025.

I suppose that happens by default, then.

 

[A0]

Because congestion has gotten worse. Obviously buses aren't a segregated transport. The road network in London really can't expand (nor should it anyway in my opinion and active transport modes should take priority) so if you keep throwing in personal cars - the average occupancy of which must be <2.0 people - congestion increases exponentially, not in linear fashion due to the impacts upon surrounding junctions & roads.

To be fair - idiocy by Khan like singling Regent Street so that if a bus breaks down it causes gridlock, really doesn't help either.

Evidence> https://twitter.com/ukcoltsfan/status/1385190850091704327

 

[Horizon22]

To be fair - idiocy by Khan like singling Regent Street so that if a bus breaks down it causes gridlock, really doesn't help either.

Evidence> https://twitter.com/ukcoltsfan/status/1385190850091704327

Not ideal, but how often do buses break down? And what is the cost of that versus general public realm improvements? Is there a "MTIN" equivalent for buses?

As an aside, I imagine congestion is going to be a nightmare this week with the extra cars on the road and overcrowded buses unable to make good dwells with the Tube strike.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Because congestion has gotten worse. Obviously buses aren't a segregated transport. The road network in London really can't expand (nor should it anyway in my opinion and active transport modes should take priority) so if you keep throwing in personal cars - the average occupancy of which must be <2.0 people - congestion increases exponentially, not in linear fashion due to the impacts upon surrounding junctions & roads.

As I said though there was little congestion or traffic for 90% of my journey, it was flowing easily, the bus driver was driving very slow.

 

[A0]

Not ideal, but how often do buses break down? And what is the cost of that versus general public realm improvements? Is there a "MTIN" equivalent for buses?

As an aside, I imagine congestion is going to be a nightmare this week with the extra cars on the road and overcrowded buses unable to make good dwells with the Tube strike.

"Not ideal" is an understatement - redesigning a road such that a broken down vehicle blocks the road which means even the emergency services can't get past is the ultimate idiocy - a case of ideology over common sense.

 

[Horizon22]

"Not ideal" is an understatement - redesigning a road such that a broken down vehicle blocks the road which means even the emergency services can't get past is the ultimate idiocy - a case of ideology over common sense.

I agree but I suppose my response was how often does this happen and does it outweigh the other general improvements? I suppose that is a value judgment someone has to make.

 

[Edsmith]

"Not ideal" is an understatement - redesigning a road such that a broken down vehicle blocks the road which means even the emergency services can't get past is the ultimate idiocy - a case of ideology over common sense.

The road has been narrowed to increase pavement space, can't have it both ways and roads can't be designed to cater for occasional vehicle breakdowns.

 

[Non Multi]

The road has been narrowed to increase pavement space, can't have it both ways and roads can't be designed to cater for occasional vehicle breakdowns.

The newly widened pavement is of course... stuffed with large planters.

 

[A0]

The road has been narrowed to increase pavement space, can't have it both ways and roads can't be designed to cater for occasional vehicle breakdowns.

Tell that to the family of someone who dies because the emergency services can't get through because the road is blocked. I'm sure they'll appreciate the benefit of the wider pavements.

Normal single carriageway roads *are* designed to handle such breakdowns because vehicles can pass on the opposite lane. This silly scheme is designed without that basic safety allowance.

 

[Edsmith]

Tell that to the family of someone who dies because the emergency services can't get through because the road is blocked. I'm sure they'll appreciate the benefit of the wider pavements.

Normal single carriageway roads *are* designed to handle such breakdowns because vehicles can pass on the opposite lane. This silly scheme is designed without that basic safety allowance.

You can make all sorts of scenarios. If the pavement space hadn't been increased people would be moaning about that.

 

[A0]

You can make all sorts of scenarios. If the pavement space hadn't been increased people would be moaning about that.

There are traffic islands all the way down the middle - unnecessarily. Had those been omitted, it would have allowed traffic to pass.

This is the problem with ideological designs which ignore basic practicalities.

 

[Edsmith]

On high frequency London services operating on a headway basis it is not classic waiting for time, it is waiting to regularise the service (i.e. because buses have bunched and need unbunching). It definitely IS helpful to the "greater good" to keep the service regular rather than bunched even if it causes you mild irritation.

So the greater good means a perfect service on paper but in practice it's so slow that it puts people off using it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So the greater good means a perfect service on paper but in practice it's so slow that it puts people off using it.

Long gaps in service which result from bunching put me off a lot more, to be honest. I prefer sitting on a bus than standing in the cold.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2022 ==

The newly widened pavement is of course... stuffed with large planters.

If this is the case I suspect it was done not to increase pedestrian space, but rather to reduce the risk of a car-based terrorist attack while not reducing pedestrian space.

The central island will have been to increase safety by preventing overtaking, e.g. of cyclists. It's an extremely common design in the enlightened Netherlands and has been for years.

I'd more be asking why are vehicles breaking down that often? And if it's a common fault, how can that be reduced?

 

[endicomark69@g]

On high frequency London services operating on a headway basis it is not classic waiting for time, it is waiting to regularise the service (i.e. because buses have bunched and need unbunching). It definitely IS helpful to the "greater good" to keep the service regular rather than bunched even if it causes you mild irritation.

Clearly the "ideal" is a lot easier to put up with when it happens to somebody else.

Buses bunch in London because it doesn't matter where and how you regulate them, they operate in the continuing chaos of city traffic that doesn't give a stuff about timetables and isn't regulated itself.

I gave a personal example of why it makes no difference and actually works against the "greater good" of those actually on a bus. Pretending that doesn't matter because YOU like the concept of a tidy and ordered ideal - that can't and won't happen - makes me think there's never a point in trying to engage on a subject like this.

 

[philthetube]

It's very much become an emissions charge, but I'd agree that with the ULEZ covering basically the same area it should go back to being purely a congestion charge and thus be charged to everyone on four (or more) wheels, yes.

Bring back the bubble car.

 

[stuu]

To be fair - idiocy by Khan like singling Regent Street so that if a bus breaks down it causes gridlock, really doesn't help either.

Evidence> https://twitter.com/ukcoltsfan/status/1385190850091704327

Idiocy by the Queen surely? It's the Crown Estate that proposed it, designed it and paid for it

If the emergency services didn't object to the plans, I don't see why you are doing it on their behalf

 

[Snow1964]

It's very much become an emissions charge, but I'd agree that with the ULEZ covering basically the same area it should go back to being purely a congestion charge and thus be charged to everyone on four (or more) wheels, yes.

From latest TfL finance report (minutes page 14)

Finance Report – Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) and Clean Electric Vehicles Uptake Modelling and tracking the take-up of clean electric vehicles would form part of the monitoring of the ULEZ uptake over the next financial year. Future updates would be provided to the Committee, as a reasonable baseline of data was produced to demonstrate the benefits of the scheme.

Finance report (page 37) period 11 data

ULEZ
Since the expansion of the ULEZ scheme in late October 2021 average daily volumes up to the end of P11 are 40k which represents a circa 63% reduction against the Budget (107k). The reduction in volumes is positive for London as seeing higher compliance.
The reduction can be broadly attributed to the following 3 factors;
• Base volume assumptions
pertaining to vehicles entering the zone were around 33% what has been observed
• Compliance has been significantly higher than forecast, on average around 5% higher than Budget. This has contributed to another 25% reduction against budgeted charge volumes
• Contraventions are at around 20%, whereas the Budget assumed 10%; this has further contributed to the reduction in charges.

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/g651/Public%20reports%20pack%20Wednesday%2009-Mar-2022%2010.00%20Finance%20Committee.pdf?T=10

This finance document is the first (public) version that includes projections following last weeks £200m settlement with the Government

 

[leytongabriel]

On high frequency London services operating on a headway basis it is not classic waiting for time, it is waiting to regularise the service (i.e. because buses have bunched and need unbunching). It definitely IS helpful to the "greater good" to keep the service regular rather than bunched even if it causes you mild irritation.

Mild irritation haha. Not ever sat in a bus waiting one stop before the end so the driver doesn't arrive 'early'? How that helps keep the service regular as opposed to the inspector happy I don't don't know. Perhaps they ought to measure passenger frustration - doesn't two minutes wait once you are on a bus or tube/commuter train and alledgedly 'underway' seem much worse that another two minutes at the stop or station?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Mild irritation haha. Not ever sat in a bus waiting one stop before the end so the driver doesn't arrive 'early'? How that helps keep the service regular as opposed to the inspector happy I don't don't know. Perhaps they ought to measure passenger frustration - doesn't two minutes wait once you are on a bus or tube/commuter train and alledgedly 'underway' seem much worse that another two minutes at the stop or station?

I find it much more frustrating when I miss the bus due to it running early.

 

[Grumbler]

I find it much more frustrating when I miss the bus due to it running early.

In BR days a pal of mine complained when he missed his train at London Bridge because it had departed before its booked time. He was told that it was Southern Region's policy for trains to depart early during the evening peak!

 

[43066]

Mild irritation haha. Not ever sat in a bus waiting one stop before the end so the driver doesn't arrive 'early'? How that helps keep the service regular as opposed to the inspector happy I don't don't know. Perhaps they ought to measure passenger frustration - doesn't two minutes wait once you are on a bus or tube/commuter train and alledgedly 'underway' seem much worse that another two minutes at the stop or station?

I’m with @Bletchleyite on this one. In London buses generally operate on a headway basis, and it’s not unknown for drivers to pause when instructed to by ibus. This helps maintain a regular service and avoids the classic “two buses coming along at once” scenario which occurs where busier services tend to be caught up by quieter ones following them.

Ultimately it’s generally a lot more irritating to be waiting longer for a bus at a bus stop, exposed to the elements, than it is to be sitting on one which pauses.

 

[endicomark69@g]

I’m with @Bletchleyite on this one. In London buses generally operate on a headway basis, and it’s not unknown for drivers to pause when instructed to by ibus. This helps maintain a regular service and avoids the classic “two buses coming along at once” scenario which occurs where busier services tend to be caught up by quieter ones following them.

Ultimately it’s generally a lot more irritating to be waiting longer for a bus at a bus stop, exposed to the elements, than it is to be sitting on one which pauses.

Which if you are at the next couple of stops you are doing precisely BECAUSE there is a bus just sitting wasting time "regulating" rather than coming to pick you up.

Anyone that's ever watched Countdown tick from "1 min" to "due" and still be stood waiting for the damned thing to arrive for five minutes or more in the "elements" knows that score.

 

[Snow1964]

I’m with @Bletchleyite on this one. In London buses generally operate on a headway basis, and it’s not unknown for drivers to pause when instructed to by ibus. This helps maintain a regular service and avoids the classic “two buses coming along at once” scenario which occurs where busier services tend to be caught up by quieter ones following them.

Ultimately it’s generally a lot more irritating to be waiting longer for a bus at a bus stop, exposed to the elements, than it is to be sitting on one which pauses.

Whilst good in principle, the headway system doesn’t work very well in practice.

If a bus has a problem (anything from a slow stop due to using wheelchair ramp, to an engine problem causing delay), then the following bus is held, that in turn causes bus behind that to also get regulated, and next bus in turn etc. If it happens near the end of a route (and some stands have capacity limits so regulating one stop before end is quite common) then can get multiple buses being held, in some cases upto a dozen might be regulated due to one bus delayed.

So all the passengers on the regulated buses, and everyone waiting at a stop for the held buses gets delayed. Might avoid the 2 buses together but at cost of slower journeys. And generally slower journeys discourage bus use which is a big negative when trying to get passenger numbers back to pre pandemic levels.