TFL & "Managed Decline"

[JonathanH]

And I don’t believe the argument that key workers and such could receive lower fares - how would this work in practise? TfL can even register railcards to your contactless card

They would get a different Oyster Card, registered to them, which gave them cheaper fares. The idea of a Key Workers Oyster Card, valid only with a suitable staff pass, and higher fares for everyone else, isn't fantasy.

(I appreciate that there is an issue with passengers who prefer Contactless to Oyster but the same applies for railcard discounts, children and similar.)

 

[londonteacher]

An argument would then be what is a key worker. Would it be the list from the first lockdown? Or another list?

Fares should be set for all at a level affordable to all - as much as I use my railcard discount, I do believe that there should be no discount except for children going to and from school. Even then children should pay full fare at other times as leisure travel is not essential. I know many will not agree on that though!

 

[johncrossley]

London is pretty unusual in not having multi-modal single fares. Paris was the main exception, but even they have introduced a new integrated single ticket.

 

[JonathanH]

Fares should be set for all at a level affordable to all

But what is affordable for one person isn't affordable for another.

Someone earning, say, £50,000 a year could afford a bus fare of £10 a journey. Someone earning £200 a week clearly can't.

I'm not suggesting that bus fares increase to £10 a journey but it does seem reasonable for those who can afford it to pay more, while protecting costs for those who can't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They would get a different Oyster Card, registered to them, which gave them cheaper fares. The idea of a Key Workers Oyster Card, valid only with a suitable staff pass, and higher fares for everyone else, isn't fantasy.

(I appreciate that there is an issue with passengers who prefer Contactless to Oyster but the same applies for railcard discounts, children and similar.)

Simpler would be anyone receiving Universal Credit in any form plus anyone under 18 or in full time education to get half fare. Easy to prove all those.

I wouldn't limit to key workers, and nor really is there a case to include someone in their 20s living rent free with their parents but on minimum wage, as often they have a quite decent disposable income in that position.

 

[Sm5]

But what is affordable for one person isn't affordable for another.

Someone earning, say, £50,000 a year could afford a bus fare of £10 a journey. Someone earning £200 a week clearly can't.

I'm not suggesting that bus fares increase to £10 a journey but it does seem reasonable for those who can afford it to pay more, while protecting costs for those who can't.

Means-tested bus fares ?

give over.

If someone is charged more than someone else just because of what they earn, chances are they could afford alternate transport and not travel at all.

Sure if someone is in a certain disability, young, old etc, but purely based on your tax bracket… no way.

 

[The Ham]

Means-tested bus fares ?

give over.

If someone is charged more than someone else just because of what they earn, chances are they could afford alternate transport and not travel at all.

Sure if someone is in a certain disability, young, old etc, but purely based on your tax bracket… no way.

Personally I think they means treated bus fares could work very well. Anyone who pays more than a given amount in taxes (say £65,000 per year, and before anyone asks, no I don't earn that much so it wouldn't personally benefit me) gets a free bus pass.

As the wealthy would see buses as useful and so would want them to go where they wanted them rather than seeing them as another vehicle getting in their way and slowing them down.

Yes there'll be those who even when it was free would never use it, however there'll be plenty who would like that they would benefit from being able to go into town without having to pay parking charges.

 

[Sm5]

Personally I think they means treated bus fares could work very well. Anyone who pays more than a given amount in taxes (say £65,000 per year, and before anyone asks, no I don't earn that much so it wouldn't personally benefit me) gets a free bus pass.

As the wealthy would see buses as useful and so would want them to go where they wanted them rather than seeing them as another vehicle getting in their way and slowing them down.

imo Londons buses are too cheap, paying by the mile, with a minium fare is a better model than a flat rate, £1.55 with a daily cap at £4.60… I bet people outside London would be crying to hear thats all it costs in London for a bus each day.

if were going down that route you could argue making buses free for all, but recovering its costs in taxes, though as we see elsewhere in government as soon as an authority gets a tax take its seen as a meal ticket to inefficiency.

The best way is free market, it runs as a business with a P&L. If it makes a loss, then cost / justification / potential subsidy is needed to continue its existence… different routes could have different fares… X26 from West Croydon to Heathrow is a bargain, compared to a 1 stop from Green Park to Piccadilly.

Several times Ive see route changes make bus an extremely cheap attractive to other options, including routes where previously connecting buses were involved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The best way is free market

It really is not.

 

[deltic]

imo Londons buses are too cheap, paying by the mile, with a minium fare is a better model than a flat rate, £1.55 with a daily cap at £4.60… I bet people outside London would be crying to hear thats all it costs in London for a bus each day.

if were going down that route you could argue making buses free for all, but recovering its costs in taxes, though as we see elsewhere in government as soon as an authority gets a tax take its seen as a meal ticket to inefficiency.

The best way is free market, it runs as a business with a P&L. If it makes a loss, then cost / justification / potential subsidy is needed to continue its existence… different routes could have different fares… X26 from West Croydon to Heathrow is a bargain, compared to a 1 stop from Green Park to Piccadilly.

Several times Ive see route changes make bus an extremely cheap attractive to other options, including routes where previously connecting buses were involved.

To operate a graduated fare system becomes too complex as it requires people to tap in and tap out

The free market approach has its flaws as demonstrated by the fact that the present government is happy to see it scraped.

 

[JonathanH]

To operate a graduated fare system becomes too complex as it requires people to tap in and tap out

Such an approach with graduated fares is now being used in multiple other locations around the country.

https://www.metrobus.co.uk/contactless

Tap On, Tap Off with Contactless - it’s so convenient!

Tap On, Tap Off with a contactless payment card is by far the most convenient way to pay for your travel. Simply tap on at the start of each journey and tap off as you leave the bus. Did you know you can tap off just before the bus reaches your stop rather than wait for the bus to stop completely? This makes it even easier to use and saves you time when getting off the bus.

https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/contactless

Our ticket machines allow you to travel using your contactless card or device.

Travel contactless is a quick and easy way to pay for your travel, and you'll always pay the right fare. Just tap on at the start of your journey, and tap off before you leave. Simple.

https://www.bluestarbus.co.uk/tap-tap-contactless-payments

How does it work?
Simply TAP ON using the driver’s ticket machine at the start of each journey and TAP OFF at the end of each journey on the tap off reader located by the exit door, using a contactless payment method (Visa/Mastercard payment card or device using Apple Pay or Android Pay).

There is no need to tell the driver where you are going, and you don’t need a paper ticket. This all helps to make boarding our buses easier and faster.

No reason it couldn't work in London.

 

[Busaholic]

To operate a graduated fare system becomes too complex as it requires people to tap in and tap out

The free market approach has its flaws as demonstrated by the fact that the present government is happy to see it scraped.

It's way, way too late to reintroduce a graduated fare scale on London buses, even if considered desirable by a few. I'm of the view that a flat fare for each route, with a suitable card to speed up boarding, was the best thing to happen with bus fares in my memory, and that spans seventy years. I argued for it fifty years ago and made some enemies as a result within London Transport HQ hierarchy.

 

[JonathanH]

It's way, way too late to reintroduce a graduated fare scale on London buses, even if considered desirable by a few.

I suspect that if it was coupled with a 'short hop fare' it would just about be acceptable. The other option is to chop up routes to make them shorter.

Something has to be done to save costs or increase revenue because it isn't balancing any other way.

 

[Busaholic]

The other option is to chop up routes to make them shorter.

That would be the tail wagging the dog. I see very little scope to further truncate routes, with only the very odd exception. I DO feel though that the X26 and possibly X68 could be treated as special cases fareswise i.e. made higher than standard.

 

[matt_world2004]

No reason it couldn't work in London.

Except that dwell time is a big issue in London hence the new route masters which allowed boarding by any door and tapping in based on honesty

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just increase the fare to a level closer to the rest of the country. There is no need for complexity; anyone doing a short hop who doesn't have a Freedom Pass should probably be encouraged to walk or cycle instead anyway.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Agreed. Indeed, this could allow removal of the bizarre system of "Tube for the rich, bus for the poor" by instead offering those of limited means a discount on all modes, allowing further removal of bus routes where they duplicate the Tube, and charging those with greater means a higher price.

Integrating fares isn't just about making it easier for people. Where you have a big rapid transit rail system, as London does, and one that after the near death of office commuting is no longer chock-full, you might as well use it and thus turn buses into purely a means of connecting people to it, give or take some central London routes for accessibility reasons.

Using buses just to connect people to the tube simply doesn't work. So many journeys in outer London are not essentially radial, but require bus services criss-crossing in all directions to allow for the variety of journeys. (Often even quite short journeys are hard to make without changing bus routes on the way.) What looks neat and logical on a map often doesn't work for the real people needing to get around in their daily lives.

Furthermore, even where bus services essentially parallel tubes, they're not an alternative for shorter journeys (where getting in and out of stations takes up time), nor for people who need to be dropped nearer to where they're going than the tube will take them (with stations being much further apart than bus stops). Even in central London, where I'm surrounded by tubes, if I'm doing errands which require travelling just a few miles hither and thither (and for some reason a "boris bike" isn't appropriate for the journeys concerned) then using buses is much quicker - and cheaper - than using tubes. (And the disparity was even greater when the open platform hop-on/hop-off system was operating; but even without that, buses have the edge timewise.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Dec 2021 ==

I suspect that if it was coupled with a 'short hop fare' it would just about be acceptable. The other option is to chop up routes to make them shorter.

Something has to be done to save costs or increase revenue because it isn't balancing any other way.

Chopping up routes to make then shorter has been happening in London for years anyway.

 

[Sm5]

Except that dwell time is a big issue in London hence the new route masters which allowed boarding by any door and tapping in based on honesty

No reason why people couldn't tap out between the “next stop request” event and the next door “close” event as they get off.

Londons buses are losing money for years, lower bus fare revenue vs costs is obviously not a short term / recent issue, so advocates for it are advocating a system thats been failing for years… reverting back to my previous comment if where an authority has receipt of a tax take, it becomes ineficient as its got no reason to run as a viable business any longer.

Hard times and a dose of reality are coming.

If Londons buses were privatised things would shape up very quickly,pollution would reduce as would the Oxford circus - Marble arch traffic jam.
ok thats too much to hope for.., but maybe X26 could be privatised as could several other routes, and maybe a Hong Kong style limited stop set of routes created with different fare structures representing the faster service (and hopefully better quality buses).

 

[Wolfie]

No reason why people couldn't tap out between the “next stop request” event and the next door “close” event as they get off.

Londons buses are losing money for years, lower bus fare revenue vs costs is obviously not a short term / recent issue, so advocates for it are advocating a system thats been failing for years… reverting back to my previous comment if where an authority has receipt of a tax take, it becomes ineficient as its got no reason to run as a viable business any longer.

Hard times and a dose of reality are coming.

If Londons buses were privatised things would shape up very quickly,pollution would reduce as would the Oxford circus - Marble arch traffic jam.
ok thats too much to hope for.., but maybe X26 could be privatised as could several other routes, and maybe a Hong Kong style limited stop set of routes created with different fare structures representing the faster service (and hopefully better quality buses).

Your comments show a complete and utter understanding of how London buses operate. Your comments about Oxford Street are, given what happens with privatised buses on main roads in Manchester and Birmingham for two, completely farcical.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is one word, and only one word, for deregulated urban bus services, and that is "stupid". No other Western country, not even the supercapitalist USA, has that. Other than the UK you only get it in "developing" countries that don't really have any concept of public services, and it is generally chaos.

 

[Wolfie]

There is one word, and only one word, for deregulated urban bus services, and that is "stupid". No other Western country, not even the supercapitalist USA, has that. Other than the UK you only get it in "developing" countries that don't really have any concept of piblic services, and it is generally chaos.

Spot on

 

[AlbertBeale]

Spot on

Absolutely.

 

[dan5324]

But what is affordable for one person isn't affordable for another.

Someone earning, say, £50,000 a year could afford a bus fare of £10 a journey. Someone earning £200 a week clearly can't.

I'm not suggesting that bus fares increase to £10 a journey but it does seem reasonable for those who can afford it to pay more, while protecting costs for those who can't.

I’m sorry, but that’s life. Some earn more. Some earn less. It’s public transport, not the social security. Jobseekers already get a discount. As do students. Pensioners get it free. As do children. That is enough.

 

[londonteacher]

But what is affordable for one person isn't affordable for another.

Someone earning, say, £50,000 a year could afford a bus fare of £10 a journey. Someone earning £200 a week clearly can't.

I'm not suggesting that bus fares increase to £10 a journey but it does seem reasonable for those who can afford it to pay more, while protecting costs for those who can't.

As I said, affordable to all. If people can only afford £2 each way then that is the fare. I never said about raising fares for rich people.

 

[deltic]

Such an approach with graduated fares is now being used in multiple other locations around the country.

https://www.metrobus.co.uk/contactless



https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/contactless



https://www.bluestarbus.co.uk/tap-tap-contactless-payments



No reason it couldn't work in London.

The other operators who use tap in tap out use single door buses - in London tap out terminals would need to be provided at the exit door and hence would be difficult to stop people tapping out when they pass the exit rather than when they get off. So its certainly feasible but would be an extra cost to install the equipment and will be subject to higher levels of fare evasion.

 

[SynthD]

I’m sorry, but that’s life. Some earn more. Some earn less. It’s public transport, not the social security. Jobseekers already get a discount. As do students. Pensioners get it free. As do children. That is enough.

You forgot the over 60s, who aren’t pensioners yet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The other operators who use tap in tap out use single door buses - in London tap out terminals would need to be provided at the exit door and hence would be difficult to stop people tapping out when they pass the exit rather than when they get off. So its certainly feasible but would be an extra cost to install the equipment and will be subject to higher levels of fare evasion.

It would be good to do it and bring all mode fares fully in line. However, costly things are obviously not on the agenda. So just increase the fare as it is.

 

[jfollows]

You forgot the over 60s, who aren’t pensioners yet.

I'm 60 and I've been living off a pension for four years now!
Actually, maybe it's me being overly sensitive, but I don't like the term "pensioner", mainly because it's used by the Manchester Evening News and similar papers to refer to anyone over a certain age, in the way that all car crashes are also "horror" crashes and that any alleged criminal who is under the age of 30 is a "thug". (And "train station" but let's not go there ....)
Presumably people of state pension age who also live in London get free access to public transport, so I don't qualify on two counts I guess.
EDIT No, I see I'm wrong, it's people over 60 who live in London who get free travel, and this has nothing to do with either state pension age or whether or not they are taking a pension. So I don't qualify because I don't live in London, but if I did I would.

 

[Acton1991]

Using buses just to connect people to the tube simply doesn't work. So many journeys in outer London are not essentially radial, but require bus services criss-crossing in all directions to allow for the variety of journeys. (Often even quite short journeys are hard to make without changing bus routes on the way.) What looks neat and logical on a map often doesn't work for the real people needing to get around in their daily lives.

Furthermore, even where bus services essentially parallel tubes, they're not an alternative for shorter journeys (where getting in and out of stations takes up time), nor for people who need to be dropped nearer to where they're going than the tube will take them (with stations being much further apart than bus stops). Even in central London, where I'm surrounded by tubes, if I'm doing errands which require travelling just a few miles hither and thither (and for some reason a "boris bike" isn't appropriate for the journeys concerned) then using buses is much quicker - and cheaper - than using tubes. (And the disparity was even greater when the open platform hop-on/hop-off system was operating; but even without that, buses have the edge timewise.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Dec 2021 ==



Chopping up routes to make then shorter has been happening in London for years anyway.

I disagree. I live in Zone 2/3 (I’m sure you can guess where based on my username!), and the integration of bus and tube fares would switch me from the car to public transport for many journeys.

For example, if I want to go to Westfield currently via public transport, it would cost me £1.55 on the bus, and then £1.50 on the tube. That’s each way.

£6 per person return - might as well drive and park, especially if I’m travelling with someone else.

 

[hwl]

I disagree. I live in Zone 2/3 (I’m sure you can guess where based on my username!), and the integration of bus and tube fares would switch me from the car to public transport for many journeys.

For example, if I want to go to Westfield currently via public transport, it would cost me £1.55 on the bus, and then £1.50 on the tube. That’s each way.

£6 per person return - might as well drive and park, especially if I’m travelling with someone else.

I live in Zone 3 and completely agree with @AlbertBeale

Tube and train good for radial journeys and I use them.
Orbital journey useless and better tube /bus fare integration won't change that, buses currently OK for a small number of orbital journeys (the number of changes quickly escalates (typically 1 change every 1.5- 2km) but it is mostly heads towards car for longer orbitals.