TFL & "Managed Decline"

[leytongabriel]

Tbh, off peak travel demand was so low that, using super low fare for non zone 1 journeys is to attract more people to travel, to fill the empty trains.
Some fare paying pax still better than no pax.

Yes and the point of lower non-zone 1 fares is to encourage people onto alternative orbital routes where possible. This is still a valid argument for rush hours.

 

[AzureOtsu]

one possibility could be to outright merge the bakerloo & jubilee lines as they already share a connection at Baker Street. or close the bakerloo, give the jubilee the Harrow and Wealdstone services & terminate them at charing Cross. The infrastructure is there.

 

[Starmill]

one possibility could be to outright merge the bakerloo & jubilee lines as they already share a connection at Baker Street. or close the bakerloo, give the jubilee the Harrow and Wealdstone services & terminate them at charing Cross. The infrastructure is there.

Unfortunately it isn't. Trains from Queens Park cannot access the Jubilee Line tunnels at Baker Street.

 

[JonathanH]

one possibility could be to outright merge the bakerloo & jubilee lines as they already share a connection at Baker Street. or close the bakerloo, give the jubilee the Harrow and Wealdstone services & terminate them at charing Cross. The infrastructure is there.

The connection at Baker Street isn't in the right direction - you might have a point if it was possible to run the southern Jubilee Line onto the northern Bakerloo Line. More to the point, even if that existed, changing from ATO to manual driving at Baker Street would make things very complicated.

The infrastructure isn't there.

 

[birchesgreen]

Right load of crayons this thread is turning out to be.

 

[rbannocks]

Yes but it's also heavily used. Frequency gaps would lead to chronic overcrowding. Leeds is particularly poor for public transport (and has a mad road network) out of the Northern cities. Let's not forget Greater London's population is higher than the ENTIRETY of Yorkshire & Humber AND North East combined. Higher density obviously means higher public transport usage. Its something that's been built into the culture (46% of Londoners don't own a car).

Somethings that is often forgotten is that the wider London Commuter zone is has a greater population than the Netherlands. Comparing LU of the 1990 with current day Leeds is comparing apples and pears. Leeds has a tram now and its a lot better than it ever was. It also has a very fast connection to London!

This is an argument often used but you don't level up by dragging down.

Very true but with the cancellation of HS2 to Leeds it seems the way to go!

 

[Starmill]

Leeds has a tram now and its a lot better than it ever was.

That's a development I must've missed!

 

[hkstudent]

Yes and the point of lower non-zone 1 fares is to encourage people onto alternative orbital routes where possible. This is still a valid argument for rush hours.

Yeah, kind of.
But actually, North London Line is already overloaded during both daytime off-peak and peak hours.
If NLL, WLL, SLL and GOBLIN managed to reduce the journey time by reducing the padding at the station, I think some efficiency may be better achieved. They are just too slow for now.

 

[bramling]

Yeah, kind of.
But actually, North London Line is already overloaded during both daytime off-peak and peak hours.
If NLL, WLL, SLL and GOBLIN managed to reduce the journey time by reducing the padding at the station, I think some efficiency may be better achieved. They are just too slow for now.

Unfortunately I’m not sure that could happen without kicking the freight trains off the railway. Not without compromising any ability to keep to timetable.

 

[stuu]

Can anyone shed any light on the state of the Silvertown Tunnel contract? Has progressed such that it not be cancelled? Surely deferring the new tunnel a decade would help with the current finances?

It's being built with private finance. I would imagine cancelling at this stage would be pricey

 

[Tube driver]

Can anyone shed any light on the state of the Silvertown Tunnel contract? Has progressed such that it not be cancelled? Surely deferring the new tunnel a decade would help with the current finances?

The proposed toll for the Blackwall Tunnel could be expedited.

If there's a historical obligation to provide a free crossing at Woolwich, Parliament could be lobbied to repeal it and start charging, or cease funding the service publicly.

Read somewhere that contracts have already been signed and as it’s private money building the thing with TfL paying them back over ??? years, the cost of trying to get out of the contract would be grossly prohibitive to the point it’d be cheaper just to go ahead and build the thing.

 

[Acton1991]

I never understood the lack of integration between bus and tube fares when connecting between them (outside of the cap). This seems like a missed opportunity and would encourage me (and others in West London) to take public transport vs the car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I never understood the lack of integration between bus and tube fares when connecting between them (outside of the cap). This seems like a missed opportunity and would encourage me (and others in West London) to take public transport vs the car.

Doing this would certainly allow for further thinning of the network by making a bus+Tube journey less penalty-priced, which was the main reason behind bus-only through ticketing. Though care would have to be taken regarding accessibility.

 

[rebmcr]

I never understood the lack of integration between bus and tube fares when connecting between them (outside of the cap). This seems like a missed opportunity and would encourage me (and others in West London) to take public transport vs the car.

It's because tube fares are zonal point-to-point, but buses (and trams) are tap-once and not location aware.

First time I used Croydon Tramlink I messed up my Oyster card by assuming I'd tapped in, and connecting onto the District line at Wimbledon without further action.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's because tube fares are zonal point-to-point, but buses (and trams) are tap-once and not location aware.

That is not the reason, because you could do it using a similar process to the hopper fare, i.e. if you tap in for a Tube journey within 1hr of a bus tap-in (or a shorter period vice-versa as you have a tap out) the bus journey is either free or very heavily discounted. Tube fares could be increased to make it revenue-neutral if desired.

The reason, so far as I can tell, is simply because nobody in the UK seems to think genuinely integrated urban transport is important - the attitude remains that trains are important and buses are "peasant wagons" as I've heard it put. Fortunately there are countries that "get it".

 

[Starmill]

It's being built with private finance. I would imagine cancelling at this stage would be pricey

I was specifically asking for the details that have already been agreed on really, yes.

For example, if it must be built now, perhaps the TfL contribution can be replaced by applying a toll to the new tunnel?

 

[Horizon22]

I was specifically asking for the details that have already been agreed on really, yes.

For example, if it must be built now, perhaps the TfL contribution can be replaced by applying a toll to the new tunnel?

Wasn't it always going to be tolled?

 

[Starmill]

Wasn't it always going to be tolled?

There seems to be disagreement about it in the articles I can find online. The plan appears to be to toll the Blackwall Tunnel when it opens (which could be brought forward), but it's uncertain if there will also be a toll on the new tunnel.

 

[deltic]

There seems to be disagreement about it in the articles I can find online. The plan appears to be to toll the Blackwall Tunnel when it opens (which could be brought forward), but it's uncertain if there will also be a toll on the new tunnel.

Both crossings are tolled

 

[rebmcr]

Both crossings are tolled

It would be madness to have only one tolled, considering how closely spaced they are.

 

[JonathanH]

The reason, so far as I can tell, is simply because nobody in the UK seems to think genuinely integrated urban transport is important - the attitude remains that trains are important and buses are "peasant wagons" as I've heard it put. Fortunately there are countries that "get it".

No, its because no one can decide who should take the revenue hit. A proposal to reduce the bus fare if another form of transport is used is all very well but it suggests that the but operator should take the revenue hit. Do passengers who then only use a bus have to pay more than they currently do? (Same applies if the railway takes the revenue hit instead.)

 

[stuu]

I was specifically asking for the details that have already been agreed on really, yes.

For example, if it must be built now, perhaps the TfL contribution can be replaced by applying a toll to the new tunnel?

The contract is for design, build and finance... I would imagine TfL's biggest expenses are the land, basic design and bidding processes, which they have already spent. Its well under construction, the TBM is being built. As I said, pricey to back out now, and probably for little gain.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, its because no one can decide who should take the revenue hit. A proposal to reduce the bus fare if another form of transport is used is all very well but it suggests that the but operator should take the revenue hit. Do passengers who then only use a bus have to pay more than they currently do?

In London, which is the city under discussion, TfL takes revenue risk, so this is not applicable.

 

[JonathanH]

In London, which is the city under discussion, TfL takes revenue risk, so this is not applicable.

It still has to account separately for the revenue of buses and other forms of transport.

There is a zero sum game at work here - bus fares, underground fares and railway fares and a need to increase revenue. There would be a revenue hit if the cost of a multi-modal journey was charged at a lower rate. It shouldn't go unnoticed that TfL charge more for mixed mode railway journeys than single mode railway journeys.

 

[TrenHotel]

Can anyone shed any light on the state of the Silvertown Tunnel contract? Has progressed such that it not be cancelled? Surely deferring the new tunnel a decade would help with the current finances?

The proposed toll for the Blackwall Tunnel could be expedited.

If there's a historical obligation to provide a free crossing at Woolwich, Parliament could be lobbied to repeal it and start charging, or cease funding the service publicly.

Silvertown Tunnel is being built for TfL by a private consortium, Riverlinx, under a PFI deal, the £2 billion cost of which will be repaid with the tolls from both the new tunnel and the Blackwall Tunnel - so it's effectively being built off the books. This was the plan under Johnson and has been continued by Khan.

Quite extensive construction work has already taken place, including the launch chamber on the north side, with the tunnelling machine due to arrive from Germany next year.

It's (unfortunately) too late to cancel or delay it now, particularly with the contracts long signed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It still has to account separately for the revenue of buses and other forms of transport.

It can account for whatever it likes, however it likes. Each does not need to be a viable business on its own, and competition law is not applicable.

There is a zero sum game at work here - bus fares, underground fares and railway fares and a need to increase revenue. There would be a revenue hit if the cost of a multi-modal journey was charged at a lower rate. It shouldn't go unnoticed that TfL charge more for mixed mode railway journeys than single mode railway journeys.

The argument is that greater integration allows duplication to be removed, which would save money - this, not passenger convenience, was why the Hopper fare was introduced. For instance, the number of bus routes in central London could be very significantly reduced (and these are the expensive ones as they have high PVRs* due to barely moving above walking pace), with them only left to connect places far from Tube stations to their nearest one, which is how a properly integrated system such as one in Germany does it. Though you do need to consider how to provide for accessibility needs as the Tube is mostly not wheelchair accessible.

* Peak vehicle requirement

 

[Starmill]

The contract is for design, build and finance... I would imagine TfL's biggest expenses are the land, basic design and bidding processes, which they have already spent. Its well under construction, the TBM is being built. As I said, pricey to back out now, and probably for little gain.

Indeed so but as a contract worth ~£1 billion over 30 years, plus £1 billion up front, it's reasonable to be asking the question of what it's effect is on the near term budget. As I suggested bringing forward the charges for the Blackwall Tunnel to offset some of the costs of the Silvertown Tunnel is an option that's not apparently been looked at.

 

[riceuten]

I think so long as we have a Conservative government and a Labour Mayor in power, the situation will remain as is. The former will want to punish voters until such time as they "get the message" and vote Tory.

 

[Starmill]

I think so long as we have a Conservative government and a Labour Mayor in power, the situation will remain as is. The former will want to punish voters until such time as they "get the message" and vote Tory.

Indeed. Adversarial politics will continue to come before good governance with the Conservatives in power.

 

[deltic]

I think so long as we have a Conservative government and a Labour Mayor in power, the situation will remain as is. The former will want to punish voters until such time as they "get the message" and vote Tory.

As happened when the Labour govt was in power and Ken Livingstone was mayor and the crazy PPP scheme was imposed on the underground which cost billions.