TfGM

[Nym]

Now that Transport for Greater Manchester exists, does anyone think we might finally see an intergtated ticketing system for public transport in Greater Manchester?

For example, tram and train season tickets are still completly seperate, no through ticketing or zonal ticketing is available, unlike in London where you can get from say, Greenwich to Hatton Cross on a single ticket or Zonal fare, where as in Manchester, if you wanted to get from Sale to Farnworth, you'd need to buy two tickets, or if travelling off peak, you could get a travelcard. There are also no combined train and tram travelcards, for commuting from for exmple Bolton to Sale.

Also, will they be doing anything about the exorbitantly high bus fares in Greater Manchester. Rollout of somthing similar to the Oyster Card with fixed bus fares for all of GM would be nice, aswell as a zonal pricing structure for all trams and trains.

Then again, I'm dreaming now.

 

[WatcherZero]

Problem is the amount of elligible groups for discounts and the number of Season tickets possible, over 30 I believe. They dont want to add more at the moment because they believe its already confusing to have so many tickets. A move to smart ticketing however where a computer works out the cheapest ticket for your travel history they believe would allow them to add more ticket prices without confusing people.

Think how much easier it is in London where all the buses are tendered services rather than private competition, the Tube and Trams are owned by Tfl and it also franchises the overground. It only has to worry about the heavy rail services crossing the boundary and thats where the problems occur in London.

 

[scrapy]

I agree that what you have suggested should happen. However there are quite a few barriers to this. Whilst through train/tram fares are available, where there are alternate routes between the same places train and tram ticket prices are inconsistant and inconsistant. For example between Altrincham/Navigation Rd and Manchester, it is generally cheaper on the train, and you are unable to travel one way by train and the other way by tram on a return ticket. To allow this the prices would have to be the same meaning either train prices would have to rise or tram prices would have to fall. TFGM are unlikely to be able to afford to lose revenue with lower prices so it would be more likely train fares would rise to match tram fares. This then would cause inconsistancies with other fares across GM as most fares within GM are set in price bands. There would also be further inconsistancies as with the opening of phases 3a/3b there will also be new Metrolink/NR interchanges at Ashton, East Didsbury, Manchester Airport and Rochdale as well the existing one at Eccles.

There are also inconsistancies with the current Metrolink zones. When the system opened zones were banded A-G. Zone D was the city centre and then there were 3 stations in each zone outside the city regardless of where geographically the stop was. That means a journey from Bury to Whitefield costs less than a journey from Altrincham to Sale despite it being a longer distance. Now the system is becoming more complex the fares structure should be revised

The only way round this would be to totally change rail and fares in Manchester. Now would be a good time for TFGM to work out how to do this as Northern Rail and TPE who set rail fares in GM have their franchises coming up for renewal and TFGM may be able to persuade the government to require the new franchisee to fit in with TFGMs plans and also require the new franchisee to supply new compatable ticket machines and card readers etc.

I would propose 5 zones which would broadly fit in with existing rail/Metrolink zones.
Zone 1: Central Manchester and Salford
Zone 2: City Fringe - Stops within 2 miles of Zone 1 including Old Trafford, Levenshulme, COMS, Chorlton, Broadway, Crumpsall, Gorton, Central Park
Zone 3: All other stations within the M60
Zone 4: Stations outside M60 but within 5 miles of it
Zone 5: Stations on outer fringe of GM area such as Littleborough, Bromley Cross and Wigan area.

Some stations could be in 2 zones similar to Greater London, for example Salford Crescent and New Islington could be in both Zone 1 & 2. Stations right by M60 such as Stockport, Besses o th Barn, Brinnington could be Zones 3 and 4.

Other zones could exist to stations outside GM in Cheshire/Derbyshire/Lancashire for Rail travel only e.g.

Zone 6: New Mills, Poynton, Alderley Edge, Knutsford, Birchwood, Adlington Lancs.
Zone 7: Edale, Congleton, Northwich, Warrington Ctl, Chorley, Blackburn

There may however be conflict with other PTE's if zones extended into Mersey/ W Yorks.

I think the biggest problem will be getting private rail operators to invest in the technology and agree fares.

Integrating bus travel is perhaps more difficult as services are operated on a commercial basis and TFGM have no powers to set fares. Bus operators have combined tickets under System One but single fares are often a lot more expensive than the equivelent train or tram fares, especially off peak. Unless the government change the law to allow regulation/franchising of bus services and TFGM to set fares, then London style intergration is a long way off.

 

[Ivo]

I would propose 5 zones which would broadly fit in with existing rail/Metrolink zones.
Zone 1: Central Manchester and Salford
Zone 2: City Fringe - Stops within 2 miles of Zone 1 including Old Trafford, Levenshulme, COMS, Chorlton, Broadway, Crumpsall, Gorton, Central Park
Zone 3: All other stations within the M60
Zone 4: Stations outside M60 but within 5 miles of it
Zone 5: Stations on outer fringe of GM area such as Littleborough, Bromley Cross and Wigan area.

Some stations could be in 2 zones similar to Greater London, for example Salford Crescent and New Islington could be in both Zone 1 & 2. Stations right by M60 such as Stockport, Besses o th Barn, Brinnington could be Zones 3 and 4.

Other zones could exist to stations outside GM in Cheshire/Derbyshire/Lancashire for Rail travel only e.g.

Zone 6: New Mills, Poynton, Alderley Edge, Knutsford, Birchwood, Adlington Lancs.
Zone 7: Edale, Congleton, Northwich, Warrington Ctl, Chorley, Blackburn

Although I'm not sure about Zones 6 and 7, I think that this is a good idea. Might I suggest an alternative Zone 6 for the stations in Derbyshire that are under TfGM jurisdiction (I assume; they were under GMITA), such as Glossop?

Also, does any else agree that a Watford-esque Zone W may be a better option for Wigan, given that it would effectively create an uneven boundary with a large "bump" to the west [i.e. Wigan]? Unlike the existing Zone W though, this would come under TfGM control.

 

[d1015fan]

Now that Transport for Greater Manchester exists, does anyone think we might finally see an intergtated ticketing system for public transport in Greater Manchester?

For example, tram and train season tickets are still completly seperate, no through ticketing or zonal ticketing is available, unlike in London where you can get from say, Greenwich to Hatton Cross on a single ticket or Zonal fare, where as in Manchester, if you wanted to get from Sale to Farnworth, you'd need to buy two tickets, or if travelling off peak, you could get a travelcard. There are also no combined train and tram travelcards, for commuting from for exmple Bolton to Sale.

Also, will they be doing anything about the exorbitantly high bus fares in Greater Manchester. Rollout of somthing similar to the Oyster Card with fixed bus fares for all of GM would be nice, aswell as a zonal pricing structure for all trams and trains.

Then again, I'm dreaming now.

I do recall when I lived in Bolton there being a ombine bus/tram, and bus/tram and train ticket for something like £7.50 which got me round the oldham loop, as well as other areas. The only problem was at Piccadilly when I rolled up with bus ticket and the security guy checking tickets kept informing me did I know it was a bus ticket which i kept pointing out the train and tram bit and eventually someone had to come tell him it was a valid ticket

 

[Nym]

I do recall when I lived in Bolton there being a ombine bus/tram, and bus/tram and train ticket for something like £7.50 which got me round the oldham loop, as well as other areas. The only problem was at Piccadilly when I rolled up with bus ticket and the security guy checking tickets kept informing me did I know it was a bus ticket which i kept pointing out the train and tram bit and eventually someone had to come tell him it was a valid ticket

The're only available for off peak journies though.

 

[me123]

Think how much easier it is in London where all the buses are tendered services rather than private competition, the Tube and Trams are owned by Tfl and it also franchises the overground. It only has to worry about the heavy rail services crossing the boundary and thats where the problems occur in London.

That all said, SPT in Greater Glasgow have operated a Zonecard, and a Daytripper ticket for some time now, both of which allow travel on bus, train and subway. (There was also a Roundabout ticket, but that seems to have vanished into oblivion...).

Anyway, that shows that it can be done, and pretty successfully too. And, indeed, we're about to take it a step further with our own contactless card technology (similar to Oyster).

If SPT can do it, with the plethora of private bus companies in Glasgow who have signed up to the scheme, then I'm sure Manchester can!

 

[WatcherZero]

We already have those, bus, train, tram, bus/tram, train/tram, bus/train and bus/tram/train day tickets. We have standard train tickets valid for tram journeys if bought within the area, season tickets of multiple durations on any vehicle (though you need a seperate season for Bus rather than rail/tram integrated), the season tickets allow you to go anywhere you want at weekends for free.

 

[WestCoast]

I have bought a train/tram System One day ticket for £6.50 in the past - which I thought was a decent price. But, the metrolink ticket stock did make some guards on the train look twice!
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One thing about TfGM - it's basically just a re-brand of GMPTE though isn't it? It hasn't got any Transport for London powers.

The problem with GM is the sheer number of private competing bus operators - I fail to see a pay-as-you-go Oyster-style system working with that. If you've got some bus operators in the scheme and some not it won't work. It needs to be a simple pricing structure - achievable for rail and tram, much more difficult for the buses. Getting all the bus operators to agree on capping levels and such like will also be difficult.

If the bus operators offer their own cheaper paper tickets then take up rates will be lower as well.

 

[radamfi]

One thing about TfGM - it's basically just a re-brand of GMPTE though isn't it? It hasn't got any Transport for London powers.

The problem with GM is the sheer number of private competing bus operators - I fail to see a pay-as-you-go Oyster-style system working with that. If you've got some bus operators in the scheme and some not it won't work. It needs to be a simple pricing structure - achievable for rail and tram, much more difficult for the buses. Getting all the bus operators to agree on capping levels and such like will also be difficult.

If the bus operators offer their own cheaper paper tickets then take up rates will be lower as well.

TfGM has slightly more powers than GMPTE as certain functions that used to be performed by the district councils have been pooled at the GM level and TfGM now manages the strategic road network and traffic lights, similar to TfL.

But yes, realisticly TfGM needs to get proper control over local bus services before you can think about proper integrated fare systems. West Yorkshire are further down the road towards this as they are progressing bus Quality Contracts.

 

[northwichcat]

Although I'm not sure about Zones 6 and 7, I think that this is a good idea. Might I suggest an alternative Zone 6 for the stations in Derbyshire that are under TfGM jurisdiction (I assume; they were under GMITA), such as Glossop?

Also, does any else agree that a Watford-esque Zone W may be a better option for Wigan, given that it would effectively create an uneven boundary with a large "bump" to the west [i.e. Wigan]? Unlike the existing Zone W though, this would come under TfGM control.

I'm sure you appreciate the whole idea of Greater Manchester and Merseyside depended on which districts were removed from being under Cheshire or Lancashire County Councils. Having Newton-le-Willows in Merseyside while Warrington in Cheshire or Wigan in Greater Manchester and St Helens in Merseyside is completely illogical.

A good system of travel zones would mean places like Wilmslow aren't excluded while places like Wigan are included.

At present the Wayfarer ticket goes beyond the GM boundary and it's highly likely that it attracts extra visitors to the Manchester area. While it's GM funding it's a bit like funding free car parking when a neighbouring almost identical town charges £1/hour - which town is going to get the most shoppers and which town is going to lose trade and finish up with empty shops?

 

[Nym]

To be honest, proberbly one of the best systems I can think of would be "Multi-Zonal" with for example, Manchester Centric Zone A, counting down to Zone A1 (Manc CC) A2, A3 etc. But then overlaps with the Wigan Zone and/or Warrington, Liverpool etc.

 

[WatcherZero]

TfGM also has the right to be part of the rail franchise decision making process, not quite the co-signatory of Merseytravel, Holyrood and WAG but the transport protocols it has signed with the Dft mean that it will over a couple of years in stages 'prove itself capable' to become a rail franchise co-signatory and take full control of the roads in its area from the DfT.