TfGM Bus franchising

[TheGrandWazoo]

What the Germans would - a local small-bus circular route operating frequently to take people to/from the railway station, or perhaps also to interchange with the other Vantage route for those further south in the area, rather than a premium double decker all the way in.

We'll certainly see more of this for Metrolink now both bus and Metrolink are under the same control.

If we accept that the route from Manchester and Salford to Tyldesley is core (and can't be replaced by train), then you're talking about a 10 minute projection onward to Atherton. In this instance, it probably does justify the extension rather than some feeder.

BTW, Atherton station is still well down on annual figures and suspect both it and Vantage have been adversely affected by fewer people heading into Manchester and its environs

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What the Germans would - a local small-bus circular route operating frequently to take people to/from the railway station, or perhaps also to interchange with the other Vantage route for those further south in the area, rather than a premium double decker all the way in.

We'll certainly see more of this for Metrolink now both bus and Metrolink are under the same control

Besides invading Poland (in answer to your first submission above), the comparison between Germany and what the Bee Network can afford to do is rather a most strange comparison in terms of finance.

Already, you propose the cost of setting up a local small-bus circular route as stated above, which means that the local residents would then be faced with having to change from that bus service to and from a railway station and then departing from that railway journey to catch another bus with its associated intermediate stops to where they wanted to go in the first place on one direct bus service...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Already, you propose the cost of setting up a local small-bus circular route as stated above, which means that the local residents would then be faced with having to change from that bus service to and from a railway station and then departing from that railway journey to catch another bus with its associated intermediate stops to where they wanted to go in the first place on one direct bus service...

Typically a suburb to city centre journey (which is what most people are doing in this case) will be quicker by a combination of bus and rail (where designed to connect properly) than a through bus, though the Vantage scheme being a hybrid with good segregation may shift this a little.

To use an example elsewhere I'm more familiar with, you are much quicker going into Liverpool from the A59 around Aughton/Ormskirk by walking to the station and going by train than by taking the direct bus service which takes over an hour - and that's without even having a bus connection at that end!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Typically a suburb to city centre journey (which is what most people are doing in this case) will be quicker by a combination of bus and rail (where designed to connect properly) than a through bus, though the Vantage scheme being a hybrid with good segregation may shift this a little.

Not all people in the Atherton area wish to make such a journey as you describe above. Have a look at the existing bus routes in the Atherton area and the local districts, Howe Bridge being a good example, that can be served by one direct bus service.

Some aspirational transport proposals that see afficionados of forcing unwanted transport upon the local residents bring to mind a certain celebrity, Paul Daniels, who had had a saying..."You''re going to like it, but not a lot".

 

[James101]

It would be interesting to know if the reduced rubbishness of the railway (i.e. the end of Pacers in favour of sometimes 158s which are quite pleasant) has led to people switching from the bus to the train. It might well have done.

I suspect a big improvement to the railway, i.e. either 25kV electrification and 4tph or Metrolink, would kill that bus service off entirely.

I sampled a crush loaded V2 about 15:00 today with passengers standing on the stairs, I don’t think it’s a service on death’s door.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder if todays hiccups will be given the same network coverage tomorrow?

It was covered on the 1830 BBC News North West, with people in Bolton bus station interviewed talking of such matters as being an hour late arriving at college, two buses on another service just not turning up, etc.

 

[GCH100]

I sampled a crush loaded V2 about 15:00 today with passengers standing on the stairs, I don’t think it’s a service on death’s door.

No its not, the real reason it was cut back on the V2 was to do with the Shortage of drivers and customers not reaching pre covid levels after covid, and TfGM approved the cut on that basis, in that people from Atherton to Tyldesley, 5 stops in all, didn't need a direct bus, they could change bus at Tyldesley, however the irony was there was a through service in the evenings Monday to Friday every 30 minutes till 10pm, nothing on a Saturday evening when the pubs would be busy, and on through journeys on a Sunday, Nothing straight through on Monday - Friday Between 10AM-2.45PM, then a through Hourly service on a Saturday to Central Manchester which was absolutely rammed.

The Vantage is no where near deaths door, it will possibly in the peaks turn out to be the busiest service operated by Bolton Depot. I used an Inbound V2 on Thursday morning at 0740hrs by the time we reached Ellenbrook, the bus ran through full and was to capacity plus standing/siting on the stairs. Similarly the V1 I got back at 1300 was full, but not as full as the morning journey, returned to Tyldesley and swapped for the Atherton V2 Shuttle, that wasn't full with just the lower deck heavily used, but then what they tried to do was concentrate resources on the more heavily used V1 and I have been on trips on that were they have been full at Leigh and left Leigh with little to no spare seating. Hence the concentration on the V2, the problem with Atherton's rail network is that the Central Station despite being called Central Station is a good 20 minutes walk from Atherton town centre, hence why people use the Vantage, its closer for people who live up towards Bolton, but far out for those who live to the South of the Town.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

the problem with Atherton's rail network is that the Central Station despite being called Central Station is a good 20 minutes walk from Atherton town centre,

There is no "Atherton Central", there is just "Hag Fold" and "Atherton".

 

[GCH100]

There is no "Atherton Central", there is just "Hag Fold" and "Atherton".

That's only been a recent thing though, it was previously always known locally as Atherton Central Station, which dates back from when the system was first opened, at that time there was a station at Howe Bridge next to the church there hence the name Central.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That's only been a recent thing though, it was previously always known locally as Atherton Central Station, which dates back from when the system was first opened, at that time there was a station at Howe Bridge next to the church there hence the name Central.

Wikipedia state that the station was opened by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway under the name of Atherton Central on 1st July 1888 and was renamed in 1954 as Atherton. That was 69 years ago.

Howe Bridge was opened by the London and North Western Railway on 1st September 1864 as Chowbent, renamed as Howe Bridge in 1901 and closed on 20th July 1959.

 

[jp4712]

It was pleasing to be invited as a guest to the Bee Network launch event in Bolton yesterday. I took all photos below.

It was an early start: we had to have our buses in Bolton at 0830, so it was a 7.30 am departure from Manchester.

We were asked to arrange the buses to make a 'grand entrance' as guests entered Bolton town hall, showing transport through the decades. The vintage buses were joined by a BYD-Alexander zero emissions bus - (strangely a 23-registered one, not one of the brand new 73 ones). This had to leave to take up service shortly after the event began; so the plan was to replace it with one of our buses, a 1986 Metrobus representing the start of the deregulation era.

Bee Network launch, Bolton, September 2023 by Paul Williams, on Flickr

Bee Network launch, Bolton, September 2023 by Paul Williams, on Flickr

The MC for the event was Vernon Everitt, Transport Commissioner for Greater Manchester. I've met Vernon a few times, he's very smart and he brings a huge amount of experience to the role.



He was followed by Andy Burnham, whose speech wasn't about policy but more about recognising and thanking those who've helped to get the project this far: he was widespread, bi-partisan and generous in his thanks, everyone from Lord McLoughlin who drove the legislation that made re-regulation possible, via numerous local politicians and MPs to the operators and even ADL for providing buses. He didn't mention HS2! Perhaps this is because he was immediately followed by Richard Burden, buses minister, who congratulated the team and made somewhat conciliatory remarks about how deregulation had had problems and hopefully GM was a model for some of the next steps.



I won't list every speaker but Dame Sarah Storey, Active Travel Commissioner, made the point that Bee Network is about more than buses - it's eventually and ultimately about integrated transport, from foot to bike to bus to tram to train. Dame Sarah also taught me something I didn't know... This was that the wings of the bee in the Bee Network logo has five stripes on each wing - this represents the ten boroughs of Greater Manchester. Well I never!

There was a break, and during it I prevailed upon both Dame Sarah and on Louise Haigh MP (shadow transport minister) to come outside for a photo. Both were very nice about it, in particular Louise Haigh was very down to earth and a good laugh. When I put her in the cab of one of our buses, she mentioned that before politics she worked for Aviva (financial services) which often led people to ask what she did for Arriva...

Bee Network launch, Bolton, September 2023 by Paul Williams, on Flickr

Bee Network launch, Bolton, September 2023 by Paul Williams, on Flickr

At the end, guests were invited to go outside and inspect the buses (the weather was perfect). One of the key TfGM fares products will be Clipper, harking back to the old days of the 1980s ClipperCard, and one of our team just 'happened' to have some old ClipperCards on him prompting Andy Burnham to try one in our 1984 Olympian creating what was, for me, the photo du jour...

Andy and Louise use their Cippercards! Bolton, September 2023 by Paul Williams, on Flickr

All in all the event was short on policy detail and long on mutual thanks for getting it so far and networking. There was an acknowledgement that the target to increase passengers by 30% by 2030 is very stretching, but it was clear that the passion is there from Manchester and that central government won't stand in its way. Piloting touch in, touch out rail travel on selected routes was again mentioned for 2025.

Bee Network launch, Bolton, September 2023 by Paul Williams, on Flickr

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The TfGM website is now the Bee Network website

Basically the same as it was, just redesigned a bit with lots of yellow everywhere

A friend who lives in Gatley raised a "contact us" query to be raised on the new named website and received an answer that stated not all which was fully accessible on the former TfGM website is currently available but that Bee Network are aware of this and are currently working on upgrading the Bee Network website. I wonder why Bee Network would not have waited a little longer to launch their new website until everything was accessible.

 

[158756]

A friend who lives in Gatley raised a "contact us" query to be raised on the new named website and received an answer that stated not all which was fully accessible on the former TfGM website is currently available but that Bee Network are aware of this and are currently working on upgrading the Bee Network website. I wonder why Bee Network would not have waited a little longer to launch their new website until everything was accessible.

The website and app are confusing to me. The date for the start of the Bee Network has been known for ages, how have they got to this point with the app so clearly unfinished?

Some of the "teething troubles" this week seem like things being rushed at the last minute as well despite the timelines being set for so long. Some things probably need working on before Phase 2 starts. I know it's an issue with the change of operating company, but from the anecdotes I've read the staff training for the new buses, new ticket machines etc seems very rushed, and was it wise to have a big service increase on the same day? And the service reductions on other Go North West services suggest they haven't been able to recruit the staff to operate the increased frequencies.

 

[Halwynd]

I'm a recent convert to my local bus service which is now part of the Bee Network and previously operated by Diamond North West...

My observations for the first week:

Vehicles all clean and tidy, some seem to have received brand new interiors and the seats are actually quite comfortable - better in fact than some long-distance trains! Drivers are clearly new and inexperienced but on my route, which is every 20 minutes, the services I have used have seen punctuality and reliability at 100%.

On the downside, the Bee Network app needs a lot more work before it has the level of functionality that would be useful, at least to me. I've been buying the £2 singles but have obtained a Smartcard so that I can buy a weekly pass when required. There seem to be two types of weekly bus ticket and I've worked out which one I need, but I'm not 100% sure whether they can be purchased onboard with the Smartcard. Does anyone know whether drivers are able to sell and load these 7 day passes onto Bee Network Smartcards onboard?

Anyway, there were bound to be teething problems in the early days and I acknowledge that on some other routes other passengers have not had a good experience, but so far mine has been positive.

 

[johncrossley]

There seem to be two types of weekly bus ticket and I've worked out which one I need, but I'm not 100% sure whether they can be purchased onboard with the Smartcard. Does anyone know whether drivers are able to sell and load these 7 day passes onto Bee Network Smartcards onboard?

7-day Bee AnyBus (adult)

7 day's unlimited travel on any bus in Greater Manchester up to the last service of the last day that the ticket is valid.

tfgm.com

• Buy this ticket on any bus in Greater Manchester, including Bee Network buses. Pay by cash only.
• This ticket is also available to buy from the Bee Network app, as a smart ticket at an information and ticket office (Travelshop) or Paypoint retail outlet.
• This ticket will be available to buy from 24 September.

The other ticket is the Bee Bus ticket. You only need that if you travel outside GM on Bee Network buses. That isn't valid on any other company.

7-day Bee Bus (adult)

7 day's unlimited travel on any bus Bee Network bus up to the last service of the last day that the ticket is valid.

tfgm.com

use this ticket for 7 day's unlimited travel on Bee Network buses up to the last service of the day (or 4am if the service runs for 24 hours).

Use this ticket if your journey includes travel on a Bee Network bus service outside of Greater Manchester. If your journey is within Greater Manchester buy the Bee AnyBus ticket which is valid for travel on any bus in Greater Manchester.

 

[Halwynd]

7-day Bee AnyBus (adult)

7 day's unlimited travel on any bus in Greater Manchester up to the last service of the last day that the ticket is valid.

tfgm.com

The other ticket is the Bee Bus ticket. You only need that if you travel outside GM on Bee Network buses. That isn't valid on any other company.

7-day Bee Bus (adult)

7 day's unlimited travel on any bus Bee Network bus up to the last service of the last day that the ticket is valid.

tfgm.com

Many thanks, I appreciate it.

I was aware of the two different tickets but was initially unsure which ticket would be best for me, especially as they are both priced at £21, and whether I could put it on a Smartcard paying by debit card onboard. I only travel within GM so I'd have to buy it in advance from a Travelshop.

Thanks again!

 

[Deerfold]

Many thanks, I appreciate it.

I was aware of the two different tickets but was initially unsure which ticket would be best for me, especially as they are both priced at £21, and whether I could put it on a Smartcard paying by debit card onboard. I only travel within GM so I'd have to buy it in advance from a Travelshop.

Thanks again!

Or via the App if your phone has NFC.

 

[Halwynd]

Or via the App if your phone has NFC.

Thanks Deerfold, but unfortunately I can't take a personal smartphone onto work premesis, so that would be difficult. If there was a way of using the App to buy and upload the ticket to the smartcard that would be great. I could be wrong but I'm sure I read somewhere that one of the TOC Apps already allows this, so possibly something that might become available in the future.

 

[GordonT]

Is the entire area covered by a Manchester franchise totally protected from competitive activity from other operators to the same extent as the Transport for London network?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Is the entire area covered by a Manchester franchise totally protected from competitive activity from other operators to the same extent as the Transport for London network?

I believe TFGM are a traffic commissioner now, and I think they could just say no to any bus services that would compete with franchised busses (not fully sure on a traffic commissioner's power, but they seem to have full power over local busses)

 

[Deerfold]

Thanks Deerfold, but unfortunately I can't take a personal smartphone onto work premesis, so that would be difficult. If there was a way of using the App to buy and upload the ticket to the smartcard that would be great. I could be wrong but I'm sure I read somewhere that one of the TOC Apps already allows this, so possibly something that might become available in the future.

I thought it did, but I'm afraid it seems I was wrong.

West Yorkshire has an app which allows that.

 

[Halwynd]

I thought it did, but I'm afraid it seems I was wrong.

West Yorkshire has an app which allows that.

Thanks anyway... hopefully the technology will soon cross the Pennines!

 

[317 forever]

I caught my coach home to Manchester on Wednesday, which passed Piccadilly Gardens. Although only a snapshot, what was ominous was there being no 36 or 37 in the bus station at the time.

Admittedly, it is early days yet and these may, as indicated above, be teething troubles due to a change of operator for so many routes at the same time.

For stage 2 it is possible that Middleton, remaining unchanged with Stagecoach, has a smoother start than the operations changing hands.

 

[TheSmiths82]

Was talking to a friend last night that lives in Swinton. He gets the bus every day for work and he said that apart from a couple of issues with ticket machines not working, the frequency of the buses into the city centre has improved a lot as has reliability since the introduction of the Bee Network. On high frequency routes it can be difficult to know if buses are on time but the buses are so frequent, but I certainly get the impression there is simply more buses running down the A6 now.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

apart from a couple of issues with ticket machines not working

I don't see why that's an issue, makes boarding quicker and travel free (For those without bus passes).
Although it probably means it doesn't track on bustimes.org so may make service look worse than it is.

 

[Trackman]

I don't see why that's an issue, makes boarding quicker and travel free (For those without bus passes).
Although it probably means it doesn't track on bustimes.org so may make service look worse than it is.

If the ticketer (I think Bee are using this ticket machine) screen boots and GPS shows green it should be OK.
I've heard some people say the real time tracking doesn't work on the Bee app, I know for a fact some services it does work, some says 'timetabled' though. I Would just like to add real time tracking doesn't work any other generic bus tracking app (as I know of)

 

[Andyh82]

I caught a 36 yesterday (which was horrendous due to the weather and traffic congestion in Manchester), but the screen on board the new E400 City didn’t seem to be working - displayed ‘Welcome aboard we’ll be setting off soon’ for half the journey and ‘Stop requested’ for the other half

I also travelled on a V1, and note that ‘Vantage’ is sewn into the headrests of the luxury seats, so it’ll still exist there even if they are yellow on the outside

 

[317 forever]

I caught a 36 yesterday (which was horrendous due to the weather and traffic congestion in Manchester), but the screen on board the new E400 City didn’t seem to be working - displayed ‘Welcome aboard we’ll be setting off soon’ for half the journey and ‘Stop requested’ for the other half

I also travelled on a V1, and note that ‘Vantage’ is sewn into the headrests of the luxury seats, so it’ll still exist there even if they are yellow on the outside

As the Vantage branding belongs to the network and V route numbers, it is indeed staying in place even following the routes migrating from First to GoAhead.

 

[WatcherZero]

Vantage brand actually belonged to First but they were contractually required to sell it on to their successor if requested, I dont think the option to buy the brand was taken up and they will just be Bee branded though some talk of sub brands returning in future for certain types of services like limited stop or BRT.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Under the Bee Network, will passengers now not see as many "service timetable changes" which occurred prior to it?