TfGM Bee Network - fleet discussion

[Bovverboy]

I’ve said it before but in my opinion Go North West have always had the best style destination displays. It’s clear and simple.
But as I am a driver in Manchester let me say that the majority of people only look at the service number and pay no notice to the actual destination.
And if anyone doesn't believe me, jump on a 52 terminating at Salford shopping centre and watch all the people kick off because they want Eccles.

There are only two southbound journeys per day (Mondays to Fridays) and one on a Saturday which are scheduled to terminate at Salford Precinct, other than those towards close of service when there are no more journeys scheduled to operate beyond. The journeys referred to are all scheduled to operate early evening, when I can't believe you would be overwhelmed with passengers anyway.
Any other journeys terminating at the precinct would be turning short, and would be scheduled to continue to, at least, Eccles. Terminating short at Salford is something I know does happen. In that situation I would have sympathy for people not too happy about the bus not continuing to Eccles.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2025 ==

3286 has had arms fitted, wheels will go on over the weekend/early next week as it was having exhaust work done on Friday.

It started to do Vantage work on Monday (8/9).

 

[Class 466]

There are only two southbound journeys per day (Mondays to Fridays) and one on a Saturday which are scheduled to terminate at Salford Precinct, other than those towards close of service when there are no more journeys scheduled to operate beyond. The journeys referred to are all scheduled to operate early evening, when I can't believe you would be overwhelmed with passengers anyway.
Any other journeys terminating at the precinct would be turning short, and would be scheduled to continue to, at least, Eccles. Terminating short at Salford is something I know does happen. In that situation I would have sympathy for people not too happy about the bus not continuing to Eccles.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2025 ==


It started to do Vantage work on Monday (8/9).

Incorrect, there’s 4 Monday to Saturday (including one mid evening) and 9 on Sundays including Mornings. So plenty of scope for confusion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2025 ==

I’ve said it before but in my opinion Go North West have always had the best style destination displays. It’s clear and simple.
But as I am a driver in Manchester let me say that the majority of people only look at the service number and pay no notice to the actual destination.
And if anyone doesn't believe me, jump on a 52 terminating at Salford shopping centre and watch all the people kick off because they want Eccles.

More than once I’ve seen people get upset when the 98 short runs terminate at Prestwich - every time passengers would be adamant it said Bury on the dest (it didn’t). Least that’s no longer a problem I presume now it’s the 99.

 

[Bovverboy]

Incorrect, there’s 4 Monday to Saturday (including one mid evening) and 9 on Sundays including Mornings. So plenty of scope for confusion.

Two of the four Monday to Friday journeys scheduled to terminate at Salford are at the end of service, at which point there are no more journeys due to run through to Eccles - and those I had made a point of excluding, as you will see. Similarly three of the Saturday journeys and six of the Sunday ones come into that category. The three Sunday morning journeys I had overlooked, I admit.

 

[mayneway]

Incorrect, there’s 4 Monday to Saturday (including one mid evening) and 9 on Sundays including Mornings. So plenty of scope for confusion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2025 ==


More than once I’ve seen people get upset when the 98 short runs terminate at Prestwich - every time passengers would be adamant it said Bury on the dest (it didn’t). Least that’s no longer a problem I presume now it’s the 99.

98’s use to be a nightmare. 41’s terminating in Piccadilly can be problematic also.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2025 ==

The journeys referred to are all scheduled to operate early evening, when I can't believe you would be overwhelmed with passengers anyway.

You’ve clearly never travelled or driven a 52!

 

[Bovverboy]

You’ve clearly never travelled or driven a 52!

I have travelled on a 52, in fact probably as often as any other route of late, but only on the central section between Cheetham Hill and Eccles, and only in the middle of the day. I know it's particularly susceptible to delays.
I'm surprised to hear that you're carrying healthy loads, even at the point where the service is beginning to wind down. I'll keep my eyes open.

 

[mayneway]

I have travelled on a 52, in fact probably as often as any other route of late, but only on the central section between Cheetham Hill and Eccles, and only in the middle of the day. I know it's particularly susceptible to delays.
I'm surprised to hear that you're carrying healthy loads, even at the point where the service is beginning to wind down. I'll keep my eyes open.

The 52 suffers with capacity issues day and night. Most drivers at queens road hate the route. It’s relentless.

 

[mattyharding]

The 52 suffers with capacity issues day and night. Most drivers at queens road hate the route. It’s relentless.

I guess the only thing that stops it being a double decker is low bridges

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I guess the only thing that stops it being a double decker is low bridges

Not now that they've re-routed it (unless there's another one)

 

[mattyharding]

13163/65 haven't been out for a couple of weeks why is that

 

[Chutters 73]

There are plenty of routes across Greater Manchester which can and do run short. As an ex driver for GNW and Stagecoach (QR and Hyde Rd), I can attest to the kicking-off of passengers who were busy on their phone and didn’t bother to look at my destination display.

Early and late journeys, vs.daytime makes no difference. If my 201 is turning around at Hyde, my 100 is a Trafford Centre and not a Warrington, or my 143N IS NOT GOING BACK TO PICCADILLY AT 3am, the passengers will still expect me to worry about their onward journey as if it was one of my kids making the trip. FAO, I don’t care about much off my running board other than where can I smoke between trips or am I obviously pushing the trip in front of me…

As to hating the 52, I loved it. 53 is vile in comparison. Traffic all the way in both directions and grumpy passengers. The 52 usually has good layovers in Failsworth, Eccles and T.C. Enough for a cigarette, which is important and makes for a smoother passenger experience on my bus. Flying the last bit of the 52 flat out is always possible, unlike the damn 53.

 

[M60lad]

Another thing going for 52 is the abundance of Supermarkets on the route (Terminus's) Morrisons in Eccles and Tesco's at both Cheetham Hill (Handy on turnbacks) and Failsworth and I've known drivers in the past to use them when they've got time to kill.

 

[Fox192]

The 52 suffers with capacity issues day and night. Most drivers at queens road hate the route. It’s relentless.

How would the tram buses that Liverpool invested in suit on the 52/53

 

[Class 466]

How would the tram buses that Liverpool invested in suit on the 52/53

I doubt Manchester will see Bendy buses again.

 

[py_megapixel]

I've long thought routes that run in parts like this could do with having multiple route numbers. For example, 52 should refer only to the core Eccles-Cheetham Hill section. Then use 52A for extensions to the Trafford Centre, 52B for extensions to Failsworth, and 52C for the occasional runs of the whole Trafford Centre - Failsworth route.

It's not as if there's a shortage of letters/numbers to go around; having it all numbered the same just seems needlessly confusing.

 

[Leedsbusman]

I've long thought routes that run in parts like this could do with having multiple route numbers. For example, 52 should refer only to the core Eccles-Cheetham Hill section. Then use 52A for extensions to the Trafford Centre, 52B for extensions to Failsworth, and 52C for the occasional runs of the whole Trafford Centre - Failsworth route.

It's not as if there's a shortage of letters/numbers to go around; having it all numbered the same just seems needlessly confusing.

So for the majority on the common section that have four different route numbers. Why complicate things just because a handful of people don’t check the destination on the front.

 

[py_megapixel]

So for the majority on the common section that have four different route numbers. Why complicate things just because a handful of people don’t check the destination on the front.

Because a common section with lots of different route numbers is a very common thing, whereas lots of different destinations with the same number is not.

Someone travelling from Manchester to Withington, for example, can use the 41, 42, 42A, 42B, 42C, 43, 142, 143 or 147 routes. But crucially, assuming they wait on the right side of the road, they can use any bus showing those numbers without having to check anything else.

 

[Scania1996]

What has First running B9s got to do with Stagecoach running B5s?

Some of the B5s are ex Go Ahead Oxford and had nothing to do with First...



On a separate note, the two E200MMCs I mentioned up thread have now migrated to Wigan ex Metroline.

One of them (4153) has entered service today on the 632, interesting to note these two have the 6 cylinder engine as opposed to all other E200MMCs at Wigan, which have the 4 cylinder engine.

 

[MCRTransitYT]

One of them (4153) has entered service today on the 632, interesting to note these two have the 6 cylinder engine as opposed to all other E200MMCs at Wigan, which have the 4 cylinder engine.

And the 0.3m length difference. Now im thinking about it, why didn't gnw/tfgm order 11.8m e200mmcs for wigan/Bolton? Why did they compromise 30cm

 

[Class 466]

And the 0.3m length difference. Now im thinking about it, why didn't gnw/tfgm order 11.8m e200mmcs for wigan/Bolton? Why did they compromise 30cm

Went for the weaker engine

 

[pokemonsuper9]

And the 0.3m length difference. Now im thinking about it, why didn't gnw/tfgm order 11.8m e200mmcs for wigan/Bolton? Why did they compromise 30cm

Maybe an extra 4 seats wasn't worth the money.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Went for the weaker engine

Translation: It was the cheaper option

 

[Leedsbusman]

Because a common section with lots of different route numbers is a very common thing, whereas lots of different destinations with the same number is not.

.

rubbish - there’s loads of examples of short workings using the same number without hoards of confused customers.

that includes the 41, 42, 42A 42B and 147 on your list!

 

[py_megapixel]

rubbish - there’s loads of examples of short workings using the same number without hoards of confused customers.

that includes the 41, 42, 42A 42B and 147 on your list!

The 41 and 42A I would probably choose to renumber some of the journeys as I have described. I'm fairly sure someone's already mentioned upthread passengers being confused by early terminating 41s.

The 42 is a really bizarre situation because there is actually a separate route number, 142, used for most of its short workings! Of course this is a legacy of Stagecoach trying to distinguish Magic Bus from its other operations. Why they left a few still numbered 42, I have no idea. Presumably they didn't want people with the cheap Magic Rider tickets using them, but only they can say why.

As well as that, the 42, 42B and 147 only have short runs on the first/last few journeys when few people are travelling anyway. I believe the buses on those runs quite prominently display "PART ROUTE ONLY" which has the same effect as a different number would. Hardly comparable to the 52 where the whole service consists almost entirely of short runs, and buses running all the way from the Trafford Centre to Failsworth are the exception.

It's very easy to sit here and say that those are silly passengers who should have checked the destination. But if we accept the premise - as I think we have to - that some passengers (in fact, probably quite a lot) won't check the destination and will just look at the number, my view is that the public transport system should be helpful to them and try and guide them not to make a mistake. After all, the system exists to serve its passengers, and not the other way round.

 

[Leedsbusman]

The 41 and 42A I would probably choose to renumber some of the journeys as I have described. I'm fairly sure someone's already mentioned upthread passengers being confused by early terminating 41s.

The 42 is a really bizarre situation because there is actually a separate route number, 142, used for most of its short workings! Of course this is a legacy of Stagecoach trying to distinguish Magic Bus from its other operations. Why they left a few still numbered 42, I have no idea. Presumably they didn't want people with the cheap Magic Rider tickets using them, but only they can say why.

As well as that, the 42, 42B and 147 only have short runs on the first/last few journeys when few people are travelling anyway. I believe the buses on those runs quite prominently display "PART ROUTE ONLY" which has the same effect as a different number would. Hardly comparable to the 52 where the whole service consists almost entirely of short runs, and buses running all the way from the Trafford Centre to Failsworth are the exception.

It's very easy to sit here and say that those are silly passengers who should have checked the destination. But if we accept the premise - as I think we have to - that some passengers (in fact, probably quite a lot) won't check the destination and will just look at the number, my view is that the public transport system should be helpful to them and try and guide them not to make a mistake. After all, the system exists to serve its passengers, and not the other way round.

I don’t think we have to accept that premise at all sorry! I’m sure the 52 carries huge volumes of people who successfully manage to catch the right bus. It’s run in this format for many years now.

 

[Mollman]

Maybe an extra 4 seats wasn't worth the money.

The problem has been that Arriva used 44 seat Pulsars on the 632 (then 362). Before Covid this was every 15 minutes but TfGM adopted the post-Covid timetable of every 20 minutes. This has lead to overcrowding at the Chorley end especially at school times and market days. Hopefully the longer buses will be targeted on the busiest journeys.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

Because a common section with lots of different route numbers is a very common thing, whereas lots of different destinations with the same number is not.

It used to be but it is changing and it is becoming more common to just use a single route number despite variations, it has always been less common to have different numbers just for short turning trips though I think it is something that some of the big cities like Birmingham and Manchester did do. Whichever way you do it produces issues and has upsides and downsides. Having lots of different numbers to highlight variations can be useful at the roadside though given passengers are different it confuses some and provides no help for those who don't bother to read the destinations anyway - it can also help drivers remember which variation they are doing and highlight something different.

The issue is that with journey planners, 3rd party data users (Traveline & those using BODs) and modern interactive websites they can't cope with a single route with multiple route number variations and treat them as different services which makes it harder to display the full timetable when people enquire. On our webiste, one of the market leading suppliers, we can do a back office 'bodge' to link the services so passengers can understand how to find the full timetable but we still can't get it to correctly display in all aspects, 3rd party suppliers who are becoming more common are less likely to either want to make that effort or know they should which leaves customers not seeing the full picture clearly.

At the moment I'm not sure anyone is really clear on the best, or more accurately least worst, path and I think operators would prefer the data issue in the back office to be fixed but since the big problems are not with their systems but those of 3rd parties it is difficult to influence as operators have few connections with these organisations to exert any influence.

 

[Class 466]

4 BZLs out on Free Bus today, 11819-24 moving from Queens Road to Middleton as a result (11822/23 move later this week). 13175-79/81 will move to Oldham as more BZLs come online.

 

[Bovverboy]

4 BZLs out on Free Bus today, 11819-24 moving from Queens Road to Middleton as a result (11822/23 move later this week). 13175-79/81 will move to Oldham as more BZLs come online.

11819-21/4 have all been on Middleton work this morning, Monday 15/9.

 

[mayneway]

4 BZLs out on Free Bus today, 11819-24 moving from Queens Road to Middleton as a result (11822/23 move later this week). 13175-79/81 will move to Oldham as more BZLs come online.

Strange set up regarding the BZL’s. They will be based at Queens road, work on the freebus but will go to Oldham every night to be charged. All so the Freebus can be electric!

 

[mattyharding]

4 BZLs out on Free Bus today, 11819-24 moving from Queens Road to Middleton as a result (11822/23 move later this week). 13175-79/81 will move to Oldham as more BZLs come online.

The B5S should just be for the local Oldham services and not for the 348, 350 etc