Testing experience at Paddington

[RJ]

I went out to South Wales last night, arriving back into Paddington this afternoon. It was a fantastic trip, no problems on the trains at all. I then needed to get to the East Midlands, so I went to the Advance ticket office as I also required a reservation for travel today.

I have a series of unused return portions with validity between various points on the MML. As I'm doing a daytrip to the East Mids and back today, I decided to buy an Anytime Day Return from London Thameslink to Kentish Town, a single from Boundary Zone 4 to St Albans and a CDR between two stations in the East Midlands from the ticket office at St Pancras.

The problems started when the ticket office clerk decided to be "helpful," rather that just sell me what I asked for. After he did what he thought was making sense of the actual journey I was making, he assumed I was travelling to St Albans. He asked to see my ticket to Boundary Zone 4, so I explained that I had a Zone 2-4 Travelcard Season on Oyster. He was adamant that the train had to stop at the station where tickets are changed over and said that he was not prepared to sell me those tickets at all.

In response, instead of trying to explain that he was wrong, I said that, I'd get on a train that stopped at Kentish Town. He then claimed that no trains between London and St Albans stopped at Kentish Town. Once we got past this hurdle, he inspected the Oyster Card with a handheld reader to verify that I was eligible to purchase the BZ extension ticket.

Just before he issued all of the tickets, I asked if I could obtain a reservation for my journey from the East Midlands to St Pancras which I'm undertaking later on today. He asked for the ticket I had for this journey and I explained that I was using split tickets for that journey. He then refused to issue a reservation on the basis that the stations on a reservation has to match the stations shown on the original ticket. He did set about trying to issue me a reservation between Lidlington and West Hampstead, but at this point I needed to get on and asked him to just sell me the tickets.

I don't know where to start with where this transaction failed to meet satisfactory customer service standards, but one day I'd like to see situations where staff are giving out completely information and refusing customers services that they are entitled to eradicated. I'm quite disappointed that despite an integrated ticketing system being in place, there is no national minimum standard for retail training before staff are allowed to serve customers unsupervised.

 

[soil]

Well:

"40. Reserving seats
Seats in some trains can be reserved before you travel and you may have to pay a fee. Unless you have a seat reservation, the Train Companies do not guarantee to provide a seat for your journey. You must have a valid ticket for your journey before reserving a seat. "

So the clerk did need to check that you held valid ticket(s) for the journey to St Pancras in order to issue that reservation.

Obviously this is likely to delay the process, and that is a risk that you assume when you buy split tickets.

 

[revenueadvice]

Can I just ask why you have a series of unused open returns? How do you normally get back from these places you get to?

 

[soil]

Some possible reasons:

* return priced same/10p more than single.
* return portion only partly used (e.g., hypothetically an Off-peak return from Leicester to Sheffield used to travel on the return portion between Sheffield and Derby, then journey ended/switched tickets at Derby - still has validity from Derby to Leicester, for several weeks).

 

[RJ]

Can I just ask why you have a series of unused open returns? How do you normally get back from these places you get to?

They're all off peak returns as I always head south off peak, often to work overnight. Every so often I will travel on the first northbound service of the morning if I have morning commitments or deadlines, for which I purchase Advance purchase fares or other Anytime fares.

Well:

"40. Reserving seats
Seats in some trains can be reserved before you travel and you may have to pay a fee. Unless you have a seat reservation, the Train Companies do not guarantee to provide a seat for your journey. You must have a valid ticket for your journey before reserving a seat. "

So the clerk did need to check that you held valid ticket(s) for the journey to St Pancras in order to issue that reservation.

Obviously this is likely to delay the process, and that is a risk that you assume when you buy split tickets.

I'm aware of the clerk's responsibilities when issuing a reservation, but what I'm getting at is it is not the case that one cannot have a reservation if using split tickets.

 

[sheff1]

I don't know where to start with where this transaction failed to meet satisfactory customer service standards, but one day I'd like to see situations where staff are giving out completely information and refusing customers services that they are entitled to eradicated. I'm quite disappointed that despite an integrated ticketing system being in place, there is no national minimum standard for retail training before staff are allowed to serve customers unsupervised.

Are there some key word(s) missing there ? I assume you are advocating that staff should issue the tickets etc people request.

I agree wholeheartedly. If I go to railway station and ask for a ticket I am under no obligation to use it for travel. I could, if I wished, throw it away without using it should my circumstances change. I am usually against shop analogies but it is little different to going into a shop buying a sandwich and then, after leaving, deciding I am not hungry after all and throwing it away. I do not expect the shop assistant to query whether I will eat the sandwich, nor the booking clerk to ask how I intend using a ticket.

The time to check whether a rail ticket is valid is when you do make, or attempt to make, a journey. i.e. on board the train and/or at station ticket barriers.

My experience, when working in a booking office, was that the vast majority of people would not ask for anything remotely esoteric. Those who did, I assumed had a very good reason for doing so and, as long as it was physically possible, I would issue what they asked for. Of course, back then, there were minimal standards that you had to meet before you could work unsupervised.

 

[Sammy h]

Are there some key word(s) missing there ? I assume you are advocating that staff should issue the tickets etc people request.

I agree wholeheartedly. If I go to railway station and ask for a ticket I am under no obligation to use it for travel. I could, if I wished, throw it away without using it should my circumstances change. I am usually against shop analogies but it is little different to going into a shop buying a sandwich and then, after leaving, deciding I am not hungry after all and throwing it away. I do not expect the shop assistant to query whether I will eat the sandwich, nor the booking clerk to ask how I intend using a ticket.

The time to check whether a rail ticket is valid is when you do make, or attempt to make, a journey. i.e. on board the train and/or at station ticket barriers.

My experience, when working in a booking office, was that the vast majority of people would not ask for anything remotely esoteric. Those who did, I assumed had a very good reason for doing so and, as long as it was physically possible, I would issue what they asked for. Of course, back then, there were minimal standards that you had to meet before you could work unsupervised.

Exactly. The ticket office staff should just sell you the tickets. Questions should be asked when making the journey by the guard or gateline staff. Customer asks, customer gets. Simple.

However, for a customer to book a seat reservation all tickets must be presented to ticket office staff including the combination of split tickets if it is not a through journey. As said above, if they are split tickets be prepared to wait a little so that the member of staff can get his/her head around said combination.

 

[island]

The question of should ticket staff sell tickets without question is not necessarily as straightforward as you think. Should a staff member at my local station Lee sell someone a CDR to another ungated station down the line (say Stone Crossing) at 0700 on a weekday morning? I would say not, as this is realistically the only way that the passenger will be stopped from buying an inappropriate ticket.

 

[district]

The question of should ticket staff sell tickets without question is not necessarily as straightforward as you think. Should a staff member at my local station Lee sell someone a CDR to another ungated station down the line (say Stone Crossing) at 0700 on a weekday morning? I would say not, as this is realistically the only way that the passenger will be stopped from buying an inappropriate ticket.

Surely the thing to do here is to advise the passenger that the ticket is not valid until whatever time, and if they still persist in buying it, stamp it ''Restrictions Advised'' and sell the ticket?

 

[Greenback]

Surely the thing to do here is to advise the passenger that the ticket is not valid until whatever time, and if they still persist in buying it, stamp it ''Restrictions Advised'' and sell the ticket?

I agree. If someone wishes to travel later in the day, they should not be forced to return to buy a ticket after peak hour restrictions have ended.

If they are on a tight schedule, they may potentially miss their intended train ifthey have to add ticket purchase to the equation.

 

[jb]

I agree. If someone wishes to travel later in the day, they should not be forced to return to buy a ticket after peak hour restrictions have ended.

[slight pedantry but ho hum]

This is something of a strawman. The issue was not "sell at all" it was "sell without question".

[/pedant]

 

[Haywain]

The question of should ticket staff sell tickets without question is not necessarily as straightforward as you think. Should a staff member at my local station Lee sell someone a CDR to another ungated station down the line (say Stone Crossing) at 0700 on a weekday morning? I would say not, as this is realistically the only way that the passenger will be stopped from buying an inappropriate ticket.

They definitely should sell the ticket, but after asking appropriate questions and giving appropriate advice. The offence is committed in using the ticket when it isn't valid, not in buying it.

 

[Greenback]

[slight pedantry but ho hum]

This is something of a strawman. The issue was not "sell at all" it was "sell without question".

[/pedant]

This is true!

 

[Sammy h]

Ok, maybe I worded my post slightly wrong, but I think you know what I mean? You are just being slightly pedantic.

As above, we regularly get people arriving asking for a CDR before the restriction and as above I advise customer of the time it can be used and stamp the ticket RA.

From reading this forum I just can't believe the behaviour of some booking office staff. Power hungry it seems.

 

[embers25]

Whenever i ask for staff to sell me the ticket I ask for not what they think I need and just mark it restrictions advised I am always turned down. Can you imagine going to a deli in sainsbury's asking for a kilo of ham and first being told to produce evidence of the rest of your dinner menu and then being told that surely you must want a sausage roll and being given that instead. .such poor customer service would be fixed rapidly in other industries why not rail?

Also leaving London wiyh a Lidlington ticket I always have to spend ages explaining where it is to emt staff as Ive yet to find one that knows . Its like the Bedford to Bletchley line doesn't exist. They also almost always query if its valid via Bedford....sigh.

 

[yorksrob]

I would agree that people can have a good reason for purchasing a ticket before its validity. I often buy off peak tickets in the morning before work as I know that I am likely to be in a rush after work.

 

[Universediver]

Booking office staff have to ensure that tickets sold are the right one's for the journey the passenger wants to take, this is why they will ask questions.

The rail ticketing system is extremely complicated and staff have to assume that passengers have minimal knowledge of ticket types and restrictions.

 

[pjnathanail]

Whenever i ask for staff to sell me the ticket I ask for not what they think I need and just mark it restrictions advised I am always turned down. Can you imagine going to a deli in sainsbury's asking for a kilo of ham and first being told to produce evidence of the rest of your dinner menu and then being told that surely you must want a sausage roll and being given that instead. .such poor customer service would be fixed rapidly in other industries why not rail?

Also leaving London wiyh a Lidlington ticket I always have to spend ages explaining where it is to emt staff as Ive yet to find one that knows . Its like the Bedford to Bletchley line doesn't exist. They also almost always query if its valid via Bedford....sigh.

Whilst I agree with the sentiment, if I buy ham when I wanted sausage, I lose money not the supermarket. If I buy an off peak ticket when I wanted a peak one the TOC loses money.

 

[embers25]

Whilst I agree with the sentiment, if I buy ham when I wanted sausage, I lose money not the supermarket. If I buy an off peak ticket when I wanted a peak one the TOC loses money.

Not really true as the two options are

I) if I actually want the off peak ticket and they insist incorrectly on selling a peak ticket then the railway makes extra unfair profit.

Or

ii) I get the wrong ticket by mistake and get excessed on board so no loss to the railway.

I have no issue being asked a quick checking question but once I answer they have an obligation to sell me what I am asking for not still what they want to sell (which 99 percent of the time will be a more expensive unneeded ticket)

 

[RJ]

Booking office staff have to ensure that tickets sold are the right one's for the journey the passenger wants to take, this is why they will ask questions.

The rail ticketing system is extremely complicated and staff have to assume that passengers have minimal knowledge of ticket types and restrictions.

With all due respect, selling tickets is my livelihood and I don't have to make any such assumption. I treat each customer as an individual, listen to them and serve them in a manner that is appropriate to their particular demands and requirements. Many know exactly what they want having made the same journey umpteen times before. Some will be seeking advice and others will have done their homework and just want to be sold what they ask for. Everyone either gets the simplest and cheapest ticket (in that order) for their journey, or the splits/other tickets they specifically request with suitable advice and a stamp if appropriate. Once I have provided the customer with advice and they demonstrate that they understand, I give them the benefit of the doubt.

As for the ticketing system being "extremely complicated," it is what it is. My own mindset is that I'm prepared to invest additional time so that I'm educated on the system that I work with and know where to find the relevant reference material for anything that I'm not certain about, so that I can provide the best service possible to the customers, regardless of the complexity of their query. Until such a time that I'm told that this method is working is unacceptable, I will continue on with it.

 

[Haywain]

My own mindset is that I'm prepared to invest additional time so that I'm educated on the system that I work with and know where to find the relevant reference material for anything that I'm not certain about, so that I can provide the best service possible to the customers, regardless of the complexity of their query. Until such a time that I'm told that this method is working is unacceptable, I will continue on with it.

That's all very well, but as someone who travels a lot by train at your own expense you have a vested interest. There are many staff (the vast majority?) involved in selling tickets who have no such interest in educating themselves, and actually believe that anyone who is doing something out of the ordinary is "trying it on." And most TOCs see customer service skills as more important than a thorough knowledge of the ticketing system.

 

[yorkie]

Booking office staff have to ensure that tickets sold are the right one's for the journey the passenger wants to take, this is why they will ask questions.

The rail ticketing system is extremely complicated and staff have to assume that passengers have minimal knowledge of ticket types and restrictions.

If the customer asks for a specific product, they do not need to ask questions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's all very well, but as someone who travels a lot by train at your own expense you have a vested interest. There are many staff (the vast majority?) involved in selling tickets who have no such interest in educating themselves, and actually believe that anyone who is doing something out of the ordinary is "trying it on."

If I took no interest in educating myself about various aspects of my job, and believe anyone who does something out of the ordinary is "trying it on", I'd not expect to stay in my job for very long!

And most TOCs see customer service skills as more important than a thorough knowledge of the ticketing system.

Good customer service skills would involve selling the tickets requested.

 

[Darandio]

That's all very well, but as someone who travels a lot by train at your own expense you have a vested interest.

That isn't unique, is it? Millions of people travel by train at their own expense and have a vested interest in purchasing the cheapest ticket.

And most TOCs see customer service skills as more important than a thorough knowledge of the ticketing system.

So they just sell the customer the ticket then? Simples.

 

[RJ]

That's all very well, but as someone who travels a lot by train at your own expense you have a vested interest. There are many staff (the vast majority?) involved in selling tickets who have no such interest in educating themselves, and actually believe that anyone who is doing something out of the ordinary is "trying it on." And most TOCs see customer service skills as more important than a thorough knowledge of the ticketing system.

As someone who "travels a lot," I know what it is like to be a passenger and I use my experiences to provide the best customer service I can. I can tell you for free that customers do not like being misled, being denied services and products they know they are entitled to buy, being overcharged or any of the other unfavourable consequences borne from the actions of retail/revenue protection staff who don't have a thorough knowledge of the ticketing system they are paid to work with.

I don't subscribe to pathetic excuses - there's no justification for having such a poor work ethic. This is where arguments with customers happen, complaints are made and customers end up out of pocket or worse still, penalty fared or reported for prosecution.

Having a thorough knowledge and good customer service are not mutually exclusive. Yes, I do have a vested interest in learning about the ticketing system - it's called a salary! I treat people the way I wish to be treated and don't think it's right that I should be subjected to lower levels of customer service than that I would give to customers myself.

 

[island]

If the customer asks for a specific product, they do not need to ask questions.

I think it's reasonable to ask a question such as "are you aware that you can't use that until X o'clock?".

 

[yorkie]

I think it's reasonable to ask a question such as "are you aware that you can't use that until X o'clock?".

Yes, that sounds reasonable, if the customer had not already stated they were using the ticket after that time, and there were trains due to depart between now and then.

The full obligations are here:

6-30 THE IMPARTIALITY OBLIGATION

1. The general rule
   
   (a) An Operator which Sells Fares, or provides information about them, on a train or at an Impartial Point of Sale or an Impartial Information Centre must act fairly and impartially between Operators. Any such information that is provided must be factual, accurate and impartial.
   (b) At least 51 per cent. of a Lead Retailer’s staffed points of sale which are open at a Station must be Impartial Points of Sale unless the Authority agrees otherwise.
   (c) At any of the Impartial Points of Sale referred to in paragraph (b) above only certain types of Rail Product (for example, only Season Ticket Fares or Fares which are intended to be used on the day of Purchase) may be offered for Sale as long as at least half the Impartial Points of Sale which are open at the same Station (or any smaller proportion agreed by the Authority) Sell the full range of Rail Products. Each Impartial Point of Sale at which a restricted range of Rail Products is available must be clearly labelled with the type(s) of Rail Product that may be Purchased there.
   (d) Operators must accurately Sell to Purchasers the Fares appropriate for the journey described by the Purchasers.
   .
2. Specific requirements

(a) If more than one Fare is available that meets the requirements specified by a potential Purchaser and he does not specify which of the Fares he requires, the Operator must seek any additional information from him that is necessary to enable it to recommend (in an impartial manner) which of them is suitable for him.
(b) Where an Operator is asked to recommend a suitable Fare or paragraph (a) above applies, it must request sufficient additional information to enable it to make the recommendation. This may (for example) include any of the following:-

(i) the departure and/or arrival time required;
(ii) how important it is to the person requesting the Fare to minimise the journey time involved;
(iii) the importance to him of the price of the Fare;
(iv) whether he minds changing trains;
(v) (if a return journey is to be made) the extent to which he needs flexibility in his choice of trains for that journey;
(vi) whether he wants the flexibility of an Inter-available Fare; and
(vii) any special requirements that he has.
​

(c) If more than one Fare is suitable, the Operator must explain the main features of the alternatives in an impartial manner.
(d) If, on a train or at an Impartial Point of Sale, a person asks to Purchase a particular Fare which is offered for Sale there, the Operator which operates that train or Impartial Point of Sale may Sell him that Fare without seeking any additional information unless it is reasonably apparent that he wants to make a journey which it is not possible to make with it.
(e) The Operator must not give any information which it knows to be inaccurate or misleading. The Operator must not give any opinion which is not based on verifiable fact.
(f) If, on the basis of the information it has, an Operator reasonably believes that the Operator which is due to provide the train services to which a Fare relates will be unable to provide them, it may take this into account when deciding whether to recommend that Fare

​

 

[Crossover]

They definitely should sell the ticket, but after asking appropriate questions and giving appropriate advice. The offence is committed in using the ticket when it isn't valid, not in buying it.

I'm often asked at my local staffed station when buying a ticket with time restrictions (usually when buying the day or so before) what time I am travelling (better question) or if I am travelling after such and such time.

I have to say, the staff there are usually pretty good from my experience.

Then, it depends on which member of staff you get. Some are more keen than others (I have had some that didn't check, which under the circumstances, I was glad about)

 

[sheff1]

There are many staff (the vast majority?) involved in selling tickets who have no such interest in educating themselves, and actually believe that anyone who is doing something out of the ordinary is "trying it on." And most TOCs see customer service skills as more important than a thorough knowledge of the ticketing system.

As has already been said, having a thorough knowledge and good customer service skills are not mutually exclusive.

And how do TOCs feel about those who have neither customer service skills nor a reasonable knowledge (never mind a thorough one !) of the ticketing system ? Posts on here suggest some TOCs think such people are ideal employees and promote them accordingly . If I had behaved in such a way during my employement I am sure I would have been rightly shown the door rather swiftly.

As a very basic example of poor service and knowledge - ATOC proudly announce that, post 'simplification' you can buy Off Peak tickets 'any time' 'with confidence'. Try that at some stations and you will in for a rude awakening.

 

[Greenback]

And how do TOCs feel about those who have neither customer service skills nor a reasonable knowledge (never mind a thorough one !) of the ticketing system ? Posts on here suggest some TOCs think such people are ideal employees and promote them accordingly . If I had behaved in such a way during my employment I am sure I would have been rightly shown the door rather swiftly.

Well, in my experience, TOC's don't care as much as they say about tickets and ticket office matters unless it relates to long queues and staff appearance. The focus where I worked was on serving people as quickly as possible, which was fair enough as there was also a travel centre where people buying tickets in advance, who most often needed the most time, could go instead.

Knowledge of tickets and in particular, routeings, was quite limited. There wasn't enough time to keep up to date with new developments, or to build up knowledge during work time, Unless an employee was prepared to invest their own time in researching how things worked, then there was little or no chance to learn anything.

My retail training was given by a conductor and did not cover things like routes, split tickets, rovers or rangers in any depth at all. It was pretty basic, not that I realised that at the time!

Although I am going back a few years now, I can tell both from my contacts within the industry and from postings on the forum, that in many places nothing has changed.

 

[sheff1]

Well, in my experience, TOC's don't care as much as they say about tickets and ticket office matters unless it relates to long queues and staff appearance. The focus where I worked was on serving people as quickly as possible ....

If only this was the focus at Sheffield ! Rather then serving me quickly with the tickets I asked for, they seemed far keener to make up ever more ridculous 'rules' as to why they couldn't and/or deny that the tickets even existed at all. Sometimes three staff would become involved in the 'debate' whilst the queue of people wanting day returns to Doncaster/Leeds etc built up behind

Fortunately I can now book virtually everything online and pick them up at my leisure from TVMs