Terrified commuters forced to flee burning train

[Paul Kelly]

I was wondering that too about the photo; the passengers seem to be walking in the wrong direction to be heading towards the platform (I mean it's inconsistent with the other photo posted earlier in the thread).

(Replying to myself) Maybe they didn't realise how close they were to the station, or the smoke was right at the front of the rear unit so there was no way past it and they had to head backwards. Did they all turn around at some stage and head back towards the station? Very confusing!

 

[Carlisle]

It's good that passengers are able to safely move to the front unit in events like this.

Oh wait no, because the cab end was designed with form over function in mind

Are you suggesting grounding all non corridor connected units on safety grounds ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Are you suggesting grounding all non corridor connected units on safety grounds ?

That statement should resonate up here in Northern England, regarding non-corridor connected units.

 

[NSEFAN]

Looking at those videos of the evacuation, it seems that people were reasonably organised in getting themselves off the train. It looks like all those fire drill habits we pick up at school stick with us!

 

[AlterEgo]

Great story really.

"Train malfunctions, all passengers evacuated safely"

Got to love the Mail and those that read it...

 

[Electrostar]

The passengers generally remained calm. While I agree the safest option often is to file through to the next carriage, sometimes that's impossible. Southeastern trains are notoriously overcrowded in peak hours. Passengers are regularly left at stations because the vestibules and corridors are full. If you're sat or stood next to the rear cab and see smoke it's going to be difficult to get a full carriage to file through narrow interconnecting doors (many of which on Networkers only work by waving the magic eye above the frame) into what could also be a full carriage with standing-room only. That's before you even started a game of panicked Chinese whispers as word of "smoke" turns into a "fire".

 

[306024]

After reading an article covering the incident in the Evening Standard I would hardly call the passengers 'terrified', the image included of the incident shows passengers trackside either all smiles or glued to their mobile devices...

That was what struck me from the photo in the Standard, three people trackside more interested in their phone (plus a 4th that took the picture presumably). No doubt if you were there it could have been scary, but hearing the drivers announcements is impossible for 50% of passengers who also have wires glued to their ears.

 

[BestWestern]

Yet again, the lone member of staff onboard was unable to do anything with his passengers other than make a wholly inadequate announcement while they all leapt out of the doors, presumably with no confirmation at all that the power was off. Another DOO near miss I'd say.

What was this, an 8 car with no gangway? Are you suggesting there should be 2 guards on the train? What if it was a 12 car, 3 guards? The load factor is very high on peak trains so how is the guard going to swiftly deal with 4 carraiges jammed full of people? Ban standing in the aisle and doorways?

By at least being able to take in what is actually happening within the train and thus making some effort to deal with the situation. A DOO Driver will spend a good few minutes, if not considerably more, stuck in the front cab dealing with control, maintenance, the Signaller and so on. In this case we have clear evidence that the Driver had no idea his passengers were on the line, as he was merrily making apologetic announcements when half the train had already let themselves off. That embodies the risk right there, it is pure luck that no none of those people chose to use the doors on the other side and landed on the juice. If whoever was leading the merry dance had made a bad call and gone for the wrong side, we could very easily have had a string of potentially fatal electrocutions to deal with. Had there been a Guard on that train, he would have been in a position to immediately identify what was going on and get something done straight away - straight out of the cab and down there with a short ciruiting bar and a set of clips, and the line is made safe in moments. Then you stay there and get the crowds out of the way.
I say again, this was a near miss.

 

[Antman]

Passengers are not idiots, do you really think they are going to get out the offside doors onto 'the juice'? It seems to me that they took the correct course of action, or were they supposed to wait and see if the train fills with deadly smoke?

 

[jon0844]

Why was the driver saying he expected to get moving again - if the alarm had been pulled? Can't the driver speak to the person that pulled the alarm on this stock?

The only reason I can imagine the driver said about moving again shortly, would have been to proceed to the next station.. but people opening the doors would have clearly stopped that.

However, ultimately, the driver must have gone to investigate at some point (if only to reset the alarm and check the doors) and realised what was going on. I get the feeling that some reporters are trying to imply the driver just sat in the cab the whole time trying to get the train going again.

 

[Sidious]

the Daily Mail doesn't do factual report

Fixed that for you.

 

[jon0844]

Passengers are not idiots, do you really think they are going to get out the offside doors onto 'the juice'? It seems to me that they took the correct course of action, or were they supposed to wait and see if the train fills with deadly smoke?

Would every passenger know which side the third rail was on? I agree that they'd have got off the door on the side of the bank, but not everyone could have known which rail(s) were live.

Now, I'd expect that a lot of people are of the opinion that you don't touch ANY rail - having some knowledge that they might be live, but not necessarily understanding much more than that. That could mean avoiding rails even in OHLE land - which is not necessarily a bad thing - but it's not a given.

The problem is that not everyone might think about every possible danger (and then there are children who might be at even higher risk) and I'm sure some people will be thinking of the train exploding (possibly thinking about fuel tanks under the train, even though it's an EMU) and therefore getting themselves into a panic, unnecessarily. Factor in the sheep mentality and, well, you get this.

 

[Antman]

Would every passenger know which side the third rail was on? I agree that they'd have got off the door on the side of the bank, but not everyone could have known which rail(s) were live.

Now, I'd expect that a lot of people are of the opinion that you don't touch ANY rail - having some knowledge that they could be live, but not necessarily understanding much more than that. That could mean avoiding rails even in OHLE land - which is not necessarily a bad thing.

The problem is that not everyone might think like this, and then there are children who might be at even higher risk.

I assume they checked it was safe before getting off the train? I mean even the average vandel knows about the third rail being live.

What is the world coming too when passengers use their own common sense rather than awaiting official instructions, by which time the train could have been full of deadly smoke?

And surely each passenger should carry a hi viz top with them for such incidents?

 

[jon0844]

I assume they checked it was safe before getting off the train?

I assume most did too. For it to be totally safe though, you'd need 100% to do so.

And we've already discussed countless times about the fact that the step is rather high up. I have no doubt a lot of people didn't sit down and push themselves off; they will have jumped. And that in itself can cause injuries.

I wasn't there - I don't know what exactly happened. However, I can imagine a lot of what happened (or didn't happen) being down to luck, over everyone being highly organised and using common sense.

 

[Antman]

I assume most did too. For it to be totally safe though, you'd need 100% to do so.

And we've already discussed countless times about the fact that the step is rather high up. I have no doubt a lot of people didn't sit down and push themselves off; they will have jumped. And that in itself can cause injuries.

I wasn't there - I don't know what exactly happened. However, I can imagine a lot of what happened (or didn't happen) being down to luck, over everyone being highly organised and using common sense.

In that situation passengers just have to make their own decision and clearly they decided that they were better off the train than on it.

Any injuries resulting from the drop down to track level are likely to be minor compared to smoke inhilation etc.

 

[TDK]

Presumably the driver would have been unaware of what had caused the emergency until after the train stopped. It's a pity he/she didn't allow the whole train into the platform as the evacuation would have been simple, and probably not even newsworthy. This train is not booked to stop at Hither Green.

Bad idea not knowing the extent of the fire, it could have caught the station alight, it is always better to ensure the section on fire is not on a station platform preserving the passenger awaiting the service. Well done to the driver ensuring the safety of all!

 

[Antman]

Bad idea not knowing the extent of the fire, it could have caught the station alight, it is always better to ensure the section on fire is not on a station platform preserving the passenger awaiting the service. Well done to the driver ensuring the safety of all!

But the driver wasn't aware of the fire

 

[maniacmartin]

it is pure luck that no none of those people chose to use the doors on the other side and landed on the juice.

I suspect it was deliberate that they chose the side where they could not be hit by other trains. Isn't this usually* away from the live rail?

 

[VP185]

I'm guessing SouthEastern trains are fitted with GSM-R. One press of the button and all trains bought to a stand.

Will be interesting to know how quickly, if at all, this was used.

 

[carriageline]

Wouldn't the driver of noticed the loss of interlock? I have no clue, but shouldn't that of been a indication that doors where opening and people decamping?

But of course he would of been dealing with (a quick count) 5 other things, it would be easily overlooked.

Getting off a train is of course a stupid thing to do, but if the train is as rammed as people are making out, I wonder what the "best thing" to do is. of course being inside is safest, but smoke can be toxic, even if the fires are outside/underside.

Did they jump down and sit still (doubt it), or did they go walkabouts?

 

[jon0844]

The terrified passengers were probably walking up and down to get the best angle for their photos/videos to share on Twitter/Facebook.

 

[Crossover]

Bad idea not knowing the extent of the fire, it could have caught the station alight, it is always better to ensure the section on fire is not on a station platform preserving the passenger awaiting the service. Well done to the driver ensuring the safety of all!

Indeed in the case of the LM suicide at Leighton Buzzard, I seem to recall the driver initially pulled into the platform before very quickly taking the service back, ending up under a roadbridge a little distance away from the station

I suspect it was deliberate that they chose the side where they could not be hit by other trains. Isn't this usually* away from the live rail?

No. The live rail can be either side, and swaps between sides continuously. The only place you can be almost guaranteed to know where the live rail is, is in stations, where it is at the side away from the platform face*

*Of course, some stations can have two platform faces on one track, with one often unused, the unused one being where the 3rd rail is
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I'm guessing SouthEastern trains are fitted with GSM-R. One press of the button and all trains bought to a stand.

Will be interesting to know how quickly, if at all, this was used.

Not convinced given that one of the earlier photos shows the opposite running track with a green aspect!

 

[Tomnick]

Not convinced given that one of the earlier photos shows the opposite running track with a green aspect!

An emergency group call on GSM-R won't replace signals to Danger itself. That might be done in due course to provide signal protection*, but the call itself is enough to have trains stopped. The green signal pictured wasn't in rear of the obstruction so wouldn't have been any use in providing signal protection anyway.

* - bearing in mind that some auto signals can't be replaced to Danger anyway, and on others can only be replaced in an emergency but can't be relied upon to provide protection.

 

[jon0844]

How quick can power be isolated, if there's a situation where people need to get off immediately? Not that this sounds like such a situation, but once people were detraining themselves, I guess the need to cut power suddenly becomes a priority.

 

[Minstral25]

Can't believe the number of people criticising the passengers.

They were stuck in an overcrowded train (we know it was at the height of the rush hour) probably not able to get into the next carriage as it too is packed and overflowing with people. They are trapped in a long tube, being surrounded with smoke probably smelling quite awful and certainly causing breathing or choking issues.

If you was inside that carriage what would you do? Stand there and choke or try to get away from the source of the smoke?

It may not be wisest to jump down to the tracks but it probably felt safer to most of them than choking on the train.

Just very glad that no-one was electrocuted or hit by a train on an adjacent line. Very pleased there are no deaths or serious injuries from smoke inhalation or other. A lucky escape for all involved.

 

[swj99]

Can't believe the number of people criticising the passengers............

Same here.
Bearing in mind that smoke can spread into, and fill up a carriage more quickly than passengers seem to be able to evacuate, and on the basis that they would be unlikely to know the exact cause of the smoke, I would say it was entirely justified that passengers evacuated the train when they did.

 

[BestWestern]

Passengers are not idiots, do you really think they are going to get out the offside doors onto 'the juice'? It seems to me that they took the correct course of action, or were they supposed to wait and see if the train fills with deadly smoke?

How the hell are panicking passengets going to know which side the juice rail is?! A lot of the time a Driver or Guard wouldn't know without looking first, it can quite easily be on either side. It is tucked away nicely beside the train and not likely to be immediately visible from a vestibule. It's entirely possible that the first you might know of it is when your feet find it on the way down. I don't think anybody has suggested that they would intentionally step onto it, have they?

 

[Antman]

How the hell are panicking passengets going to know which side the juice rail is?! A lot of the time a Driver or Guard wouldn't know without looking first, it can quite easily be on either side. It is tucked away nicely beside the train and not likely to be immediately visible from a vestibule. It's entirely possible that the first you might know of it is when your feet find it on the way down. I don't think anybody has suggested that they would intentionally step onto it, have they?

Well presumably somebody looked first?:roll:

The average passenger (possibly with one or two exceptions) isn't quite as stupid as you and one or two others seem to think
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Can't believe the number of people criticising the passengers.

They were stuck in an overcrowded train (we know it was at the height of the rush hour) probably not able to get into the next carriage as it too is packed and overflowing with people. They are trapped in a long tube, being surrounded with smoke probably smelling quite awful and certainly causing breathing or choking issues.

If you was inside that carriage what would you do? Stand there and choke or try to get away from the source of the smoke?

It may not be wisest to jump down to the tracks but it probably felt safer to most of them than choking on the train.

Just very glad that no-one was electrocuted or hit by a train on an adjacent line. Very pleased there are no deaths or serious injuries from smoke inhalation or other. A lucky escape for all involved.

Exactly, from what I've seen they took a sensible course of action...........but then in some people's eyes the passengers are wrong whatever they do

 

[BestWestern]

Many passengers will have no idea that their train is powered by electricity, or where that electricity might come from, or how it poses an immediate danger to them. Why should they, they have no need or interest in such information. It is simply a train, they get on it and it goes, that's it. Again, despite your apparent fixation, nobody is claiming these people are stupid, merely pointing put that the travelling public are not all fully informed on the subject of railway infrastructure.

 

[jon0844]

What about diesel trains? But then, what about diesel trains that might run under wires, or over third rail?

And aren't there some bits of track (Thameslink core?) with both third rail and overhead wires?