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Terrified commuters forced to flee burning train

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SS4

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You haven't even started...for example, you missed the who EU angle:

Left-wing eurocrats blow up train full of terrified commuters staffed by immigrants funded by handouts from BRITISH taxpayers; narrowly avoiding a local school, nursery, hospital during the PLUNGE from 30,000 ft....its 'elf and saftey gone mad I tell you!

I'll get my coat....

Ian

The Dunkirk Spirit came to Kent today when CLOUDS of smoke known to cause CANCER was emitted by a GERMAN train causing plucky British commuters to evacuate the train as their grandparents evacuated under NAZI bombs. The driver was unable to help because of 'elf and safety.
 
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the sniper

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Southeastern is DOO I believe, so all these passengers managed to get off without a guard? <D

A fairly foolish thread in which to try and argue the virtues of not having a Guard. This is exactly the kind of incident where having a Guard onboard could only be beneficial, if only in this incident so someone in authority would have actually known about the fire before the passengers started walking past the front cab!
 

ModernRailways

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The Evening Standard also suggests an uncontrolled evacuation; "The announcement was 'We hope to be moving shortly' but by this point the doors were already open and people were helping each other down onto the track". Assuming that's true, pax were self evacuating onto the line in a DC electrified area. Yet again, the lone member of staff onboard was unable to do anything with his passengers other than make a wholly inadequate announcement while they all leapt out of the doors, presumably with no confirmation at all that the power was off. Another DOO near miss I'd say.

Anyhow, a smoking pick up shoe it seems rather than an actual fire; bit of wedged debris perhaps?

And how would having a train guard stopped people self-evacuating, in the peaks it's ridiculously difficult to move through the trains and so if the guard was in the rear cab and the people leaving were in the second carriage, the guard would have to push through to tell people to stop. A guard would be able to make the same announcements as a driver in this situation, telling people not to be alarmed and that the train would be on the move shortly.

A train guard also may have been unable to check himself, by the time he puts a Hi-Vis on, either fights through the train or jumps out to have a look people will be getting off.

The driver, however should have been aware people were leaving. Maybe this is something whereby all DOO trains must have some sort of alarm fitted if train doors are opened away from stations and drivers have 10 seconds to respond with a push button (maybe similar to AWS/DSD) saying 'No don't open the door.' It would also indicate which doors were attempted to be opened so the driver can either stick his head out of his cab windows or leave the cab and check himself.

Hopefully, this incident will ensure better safety protocols are in place in future if something similar occurs.

This is really just going to be another DOO bashing thread isn't it.
 

GadgetMan

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And how would having a train guard stopped people self-evacuating, in the peaks it's ridiculously difficult to move through the trains and so if the guard was in the rear cab and the people leaving were in the second carriage, the guard would have to push through to tell people to stop. A guard would be able to make the same announcements as a driver in this situation, telling people not to be alarmed and that the train would be on the move shortly.

A train guard also may have been unable to check himself, by the time he puts a Hi-Vis on, either fights through the train or jumps out to have a look people will be getting off.

The driver, however should have been aware people were leaving. Maybe this is something whereby all DOO trains must have some sort of alarm fitted if train doors are opened away from stations and drivers have 10 seconds to respond with a push button (maybe similar to AWS/DSD) saying 'No don't open the door.' It would also indicate which doors were attempted to be opened so the driver can either stick his head out of his cab windows or leave the cab and check himself.

Hopefully, this incident will ensure better safety protocols are in place in future if something similar occurs.

This is really just going to be another DOO bashing thread isn't it.


People who generally travel on trains with on board Guards respect the Guards authority and know that a well trained member of staff is among them to look out for there interests. They rely on the Guard to take the lead.

Whereas with DOO, passengers generally feel there is nobody on that train in a position of authority and therefore they need to look out for there own safety/interests and the Driver is someone who is well out of touch with the passengers and the saloon environment.

How many examples are there of passengers detraining off their own back on Guard operated trains compared to DOO services?
 

Crossover

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Picture of the smoke from BBC News.
_69499651_69498414.jpg

Looks very reminiscent from last year where a 465's shoe gear set on fire and there was a detrainment onto an embankment (I thought the story was a dig up from last year, to be honest - call me cynical, but I have to wonder if the pic is a rehash of it. Those people look a tad Photoshopped, too, no?)

I will try and find the thread from last year as it was discussed at length at the time
 
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Paul Kelly

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I was wondering that too about the photo; the passengers seem to be walking in the wrong direction to be heading towards the platform (I mean it's inconsistent with the other photo posted earlier in the thread).
 

ushawk

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How many examples are there of passengers detraining off their own back on Guard operated trains compared to DOO services?

A fair few incidents have occurred involving Southern trains, including incidents at Norbury and Redhill. Also SWT notably at Woking a few years ago which led to lots of big changes in the way SWT and Network Rail respond to service disruption.

It makes no difference to be fair, once someone wants to detrain, they will do it regardless and will ignore rail staff as they think they know best.

There was the SE incident last Summer too, although it was a MUCH smaller fire with a lot less smoke. That incident occurred on an evening SE service with only 4 coaches and the fire was affecting the shoegear right at the front of the train. Fair to say I was extremely against what the passengers did for that incident as the driver had told them to move into other coaches, but pax had ignored the driver and detrained themselves, walking past the actual fire, amazing how they thought that was safer than staying on the train in another coach !!

My opinion is unchanged and they should have stayed on the train, though they would have most probably had to detrain anyway, but at least it would have been supervised with no power in the rails.

RE the picture, it was posted on Twitter by a passenger on board the affected train this morning.
 
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455driver

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So a bit of smoke and the passengers decide the safest place is on the track formation on an open railway line, I dont think so.

Now if there were flames licking up the side of the train (or inside the carriage) then fair enough but a bit of smoke coming in through the open windows, oh pulease?
 

68000

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Yet again, the lone member of staff onboard was unable to do anything with his passengers other than make a wholly inadequate announcement while they all leapt out of the doors, presumably with no confirmation at all that the power was off. Another DOO near miss I'd say.

What was this, an 8 car with no gangway? Are you suggesting there should be 2 guards on the train? What if it was a 12 car, 3 guards? The load factor is very high on peak trains so how is the guard going to swiftly deal with 4 carraiges jammed full of people? Ban standing in the aisle and doorways?
 

455driver

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Also SWT notably at Woking a few years ago

Yeah and the lines had been re-energised and trains were starting to move again when the passengers went for a walk (one train was actually underway when the juice was turned back off underneath it.

The fact they decided they knew best caused another hours delay to some of the other trains in the area while they were scooped up.<D
 

ChiefPlanner

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Bit more than a Tesco carrier bag wrapped / caught up in the shoegear then ...?

Gives the Standard another "knock SE story"
 

313103

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Did not take long to turn into another DOO bashing thread i see

How do you come to that conclusion?

Actually the last few posts seem to be about Guard bashing and lets have more DOO! The irony is certainly not lost on me, bearing in mind that Im about to lose my job! Thanks for your kind comments.
 
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Monty

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After reading an article covering the incident in the Evening Standard I would hardly call the passengers 'terrified', the image included of the incident shows passengers trackside either all smiles or glued to their mobile devices...
 

jon0844

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I do think that, sad to say, it will only be when there are some people killed who detrained that the message might get through.
 

455driver

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I do think that, sad to say, it will only be when there are some people killed who detrained that the message might get through.

I dont think it will get through then!
Some Passengers always know best and will just do as they please.
You can bet the injured party/ relatives of the deceased will get the claim in PDQ blaming the railways for not preventing them from getting onto the track!:roll:
 

Oswyntail

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.....Some Passengers always know best and will just do as they please......
It has already been pointed out that the PA system on these units is particularly poor. It is quite possible that, effectively, they had received no instructions on what they should do. It is also possible that they do not fully understand the perils of 3rd-rail electrification (why should they?). There is no official apparent. The carriage is filling up with smoke. So what is a natural reaction? Wait patiently, confident that someone will be along in a minute to look after them (meanwhile going "Baa" to each other); or perform the "get the hell out of here" manoeuvre?
Or is this going to turn into yet another passenger-bashing thread?
[PS to whoever it was earlier in the thread who said "EMUs don't explode", they obviously never travelled on the Ilkley line just before the 333s arrived]
 

Antman

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I do think that, sad to say, it will only be when there are some people killed who detrained that the message might get through.

But surely most, if not all, passengers would leave by the nearside doors?

In an emergency passengers have to make their own decision.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It has already been pointed out that the PA system on these units is particularly poor. It is quite possible that, effectively, they had received no instructions on what they should do. It is also possible that they do not fully understand the perils of 3rd-rail electrification (why should they?). There is no official apparent. The carriage is filling up with smoke. So what is a natural reaction? Wait patiently, confident that someone will be along in a minute to look after them (meanwhile going "Baa" to each other); or perform the "get the hell out of here" manoeuvre?
Or is this going to turn into yet another passenger-bashing thread?
[PS to whoever it was earlier in the thread who said "EMUs don't explode", they obviously never travelled on the Ilkley line just before the 333s arrived]


Exactly, if the carriage is filling with smoke get out asap!
 

Jonny

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So a bit of smoke and the passengers decide the safest place is on the track formation on an open railway line, I dont think so.

Now if there were flames licking up the side of the train (or inside the carriage) then fair enough but a bit of smoke coming in through the open windows, oh pulease?

It looks like more than a bit of smoke, and smoke can contain a lot of ^nasties^ which can make it hard to breathe by causing the airway to constrict or be downright poisonous (e.g. Carbon Monoxide and/or Hydrogen Cyanide). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_inhalation
 

Electrostar

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There are several videos on YouTube. This is one of the longest videos and shows the evacuation from one of the other carriages. You can clearly hear the driver apologising for the late running of the service when most of the carriage has already evacuated. The passengers appear largely calm although the situation gets more a little more tense on the ground. Other YouTube videos show the smoke more clearly.

http://youtu.be/T2OQEyF9klw
 

455driver

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It has already been pointed out that the PA system on these units is particularly poor. It is quite possible that, effectively, they had received no instructions on what they should do. It is also possible that they do not fully understand the perils of 3rd-rail electrification (why should they?). There is no official apparent. The carriage is filling up with smoke. So what is a natural reaction? Wait patiently, confident that someone will be along in a minute to look after them (meanwhile going "Baa" to each other); or perform the "get the hell out of here" manoeuvre?
Move to another carriage then (its on all the safety posters, as is the info on the 3rd rail, which are there for the passengers benefit!), staying on the train is always going to be safer than on the line unless you are in serious danger, a bit of smoke coming in the open windows is not life threatening but opening the doors (so more smoke enters the carriage) and jumping down into the smoke cannot be a good idea any time.
Or is this going to turn into yet another passenger-bashing thread?
Probably! :lol:

[PS to whoever it was earlier in the thread who said "EMUs don't explode",] they obviously never travelled on the Ilkley line just before the 333s arrived
The 308s transformers going "pop", I remember it well especially that one in Leeds that blew its own doors off. Cue Michael Caine jokes! :lol:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There are several videos on YouTube. http://youtu.be/T2OQEyF9klw

Well they were definitely in fear for their lives werent they! :roll:
 
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ChiefPlanner

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The very serious fire on / under a HST at Maidenhead in 1995 resulted in 2 tragic deaths when 2 passengers self evacuated and were hit by a train on the up fast. In this case , there were very real concerns over fire with a flashover from a displaced fuel causing severe external scorching to the HST (through I don't think flames entered the train body)

Very difficult scenario all round - though modern EMU's are much more fire resistant than the older stock - several bad instances with early BR generation DMU sets being literally burned out .....no judgement in this case.
 

Crossover

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I will add as well, that regardless of how little smoke there is, it invokes a natural reaction of coughing.

I have seen this when assisting with stage shows and a vague fog of stage smoke usually sets the audience off...as does the sight of someone smoking a cigarette (in the drama sense, so they are usually the water vapour type)
 

Mojo

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Can the OP please state how the passengers were "forced to flee burning train", as stated in the thread title please!

I don't think that's for the OP to explain; it is the title of the newspaper article which he quoted.
 

rdeez

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An important thing to remember as well is that, in emergencies, people can react on instinct and things learned beforehand can be forgotten - this is why there's a safety briefing before every airline flight, and why the seatbelts on planes are as simple as possible.

A smoking train may not be a crashing plane but as others have pointed out, a small amount of smoke can cause coughing, look far worse than it may in reality be in the confines of a carriage, and thus the natural reaction is "get away".
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Don't take this personally, but I knew as soon as I saw the title of this thread that it was going to be a Daily Mail headline, and thus had to be taken with a heavy pinch of salt.

Do not forget the readership of the Daily Mail are not ultra-technically-minded and will blindly accept as the total truth everything that the Daily Mail editorial sub-editors choose to portray as the facts of the case in the way that they can to achieve maximum "shock and awe".

And we all know how bitter and twisted the Daily Mail sub-editors are as a breed..<(
 

Antman

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Do not forget the readership of the Daily Mail are not ultra-technically-minded and will blindly accept as the total truth everything that the Daily Mail editorial sub-editors choose to portray as the facts of the case in the way that they can to achieve maximum "shock and awe".

And we all know how bitter and twisted the Daily Mail sub-editors are as a breed..<(


All this anti Daily Mail stuff is very tiresome, if you don't like the paper then don't buy it.......simple!
 

Goatboy

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It's good that passengers are able to safely move to the front unit in events like this.

Oh wait no, because the cab end was designed with form over function in mind :p
 
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