Temple Meads to University Birmingham

[devon_metro]

The fare from Bristol TM/Parkway - Birmingham New Street is the same anyway, so if you do decide to go via Birmingham you would technically be valid and its very easy to explain why your return potion has a grip/stamp (so long as it smudges) if returning on a later day.

 

[Waverley125]

I'm going to get a ticket for New Street, then change onto an LM service for University. The reason being I can only get an Anytime single for University, which is 22.40. The Advance single from Bristol-New Street, however, is 7.90 followed by New Street-university at 1.10 i stand to save 13.40

 

[P156KWJ]

Totally valid via Brum. Utter nonsense being spouted about it not being. Done it hundreds of times myself.

This is true, I've done it from Water Orton to Nottingham, going via Birmingham

 

[dan_atki]

Whilst I don't see how Water Orton bares any relevance to University here goes. As said above, the acceptance by 99.9% of guards does NOT mean the route is strictly valid. I won't be getting into a discussion about reasonability vs validity again, though.

The fares check rule deems appropriate routeing points for Water Orton to be Nuneaton or Birmingham. A journey may be undertaken via any of these. Tamworth is not a valid routeing point by the fares check rule so any journey must not touch Tamworth.

But wait, there is an easement for this journey:

030199 Customers travelling via Derby and Lichfield Trent Valley may travel via Tamworth. This easement applies in both directions.

So you may actually go via Tamworth too if you so want to!

Then we have this double backing through Water Orton issue to contend with if you go via BHM. Looking through the list of easements throws up

000027 Journeys from Derby or Leicester or via Derby or Leicester to Water Orton may double back from Birmingham if the train does not stop at Water Orton. This easement applies in both directions.

which in itself is reasonable because the Cardiff to Nottingham service doesn't stop at Water Orton, but there is also

030052 Journeys via Tamworth and Birmingham New Street may double back through Water Orton. This easement applies in both directions.

further confirming validity.

Checking maps now, Birmingham to Nottingham is valid via BG (via Leicester and then further via Derby if you so wish) or CE (via Tamworth or Lichfield then Derby).

I won't get into checking Nuneaton as that's unnecessary here.

Therefore Water Orton to Nottingham via Birmingham New Street despite double backing at Water Orton and going via Tamworth when forbidden through the fares check is valid through the routeing guide and its easements.

There are no such easements for University, however, hence the question of its validity via Birmingham.

 

[glynn80]

I am inclined to agree with collybs's reading of the routeing guide and looking at the wording closely there isn't really anyway to dispute that you can double back between University and Birmingham due to the fact you are travelling to/from the routeing point not between two routeing points.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You cannot ignore steps in the guide to suit your needs, if you have to follow step 5, you have to follow step 7 later.

Step 7

Identify the route to which the code(s) refers using the maps.

Each code refers to a map. If a single code is indicated the route is via any route on that map from the first routeing point to the final routeing point without doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single journey).

Where a routeing specifies that a combination of Maps be used e.g) ER+PN+BD, the route is via any route on that map from the first routeing point to intercept point(s) for the next map without doubling back, then via any route within that map without doubling back. This is repeated until the final map is reached then via any route within that map until the final routeing point is reached.

This says that no doublebacking is allowed (except by easement or within groups) for any single journey. Your journey is A-B via C, not A-C or C-B. I'm not saying the wording is fool proof, but it is there for all to see.

However, step 7 only mentions upto the destination routeing point and no mention is made of how you can get from the destination routeing point to your destination. There is implication, 'no passing through a station more than once in a single journey', but no mention of anything after the final routeing point except 'use the shortest route' earlier in the RG.

Without doubt it is badly worded (is there anything from ATOC which isn't), but I think it would be fair, and not unreasonable, to assume that doublebacking at this point is not allowed (except by easement or within groups) either.

 

[yorkie]

..but I think it would be fair, and not unreasonable, to assume that doublebacking at this point is not allowed (except by easement or within groups) either.

If so, then why is there a Penzance to Ealing Broadway +Any Permitted if you can't double back from the RP (London) to the related station (Ealing Bdy)?

And it would also render many journeys impossible or extremely difficult, e.g. the University example would be difficult to do as few trains from the South call there!

 

[will1337]

From Ealing Broadway to stations west of Reading it is nearly always quicker to go via Paddington as it's usually the first stop out of Paddington. Not that much stops at Acton Main Line.

 

[Mojo]

Talking of doublebacking in the Birmingham area, how would this work in the case of places like Tyseley if coming from somewhere like Oxford? AIUI, after Leamington Spa, one XC train per hour runs via Coventry & Birmingham International whereas the other runs (but doesn't stop) via Tyseley & Solihull.

 

[yorkie]

From Ealing Broadway to stations west of Reading it is nearly always quicker to go via Paddington as it's usually the first stop out of Paddington. Not that much stops at Acton Main Line.

I don't deny that; but it doesn't answer the question!

 

[matt]

Talking of doublebacking in the Birmingham area, how would this work in the case of places like Tyseley if coming from somewhere like Oxford? AIUI, after Leamington Spa, one XC train per hour runs via Coventry & Birmingham International whereas the other runs (but doesn't stop) via Tyseley & Solihull.

Change at Leamington for Chiltern and then Dorridge for London Midland.

 

[Mojo]

Change at Leamington for Chiltern and then Dorridge for London Midland.

I'm sure that's an option for many of the available journeys, having the advantage of avoiding the walk across Birmngham but I was trying to work out what the circumstances are whereby on half of the journeys you doubleback and the other half you don't.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If so, then why is there a Penzance to Ealing Broadway +Any Permitted if you can't double back from the RP (London) to the related station (Ealing Bdy)?

Valid via Clapham Junction?

I was simply saying that as is written, the RG could imply that doublebacking is not allowed at that point, and so it would not be unreasonable to assume that way, but I did also say that I think it is badly worded. I don't doubt that it would make some journeys difficult, but isn't that what easements are for?