Telegraph: Staff Travel 'angers commuters'

[Butts]

MS grades were, IIRC, management salaried staff, and were graded numerically like the clerical grades, which were CO1-5 with a CO5 being highest.

I was told that when a CO5 was promoted to MS1, they lost the right to overtime, shift allowances and so on, but had a far higher basic salary to compensate. I'm not sure how right this informationw as, it was what I was told by colleagues. Anything of MS4 and above was equivalent to god like status to an ordianry clerical officer!

The bronze, silver and gold passes only apply to safeguarded staff, as far as I know they are not available to people who started on the privatisation. My knowledge is limited, but I always they reflected both the length f service and the status of the post held on retirement.

And what is the difference between a Bronze and Gold Version with regard to what services it can be used for.

Which position would warrant a Gold One ?

 

[lemonic]

I have no problem with rail staff having PRIV etc., but in my eyes one of the big arguments is flawed. One argument which has been presented by many people is along the lines of: 'I wouldn't travel as much if I didn't have PRIV so the railway is making extra revenue overall'.

However, doesn't that argument apply to many people using the railways, no matter what job they are in? Many people who regularly choose the car over the railway for leisure journeys would almost certainly use the train more if they had 75% off and therefore bring the railway more revenue! Maybe not for 75% off, but isn't this the main argument for a National Railcard? (Of course there would be an upfront fee with this)

 

[Greenback]

And what is the difference between a Bronze and Gold Version with regard to what services it can be used for.

Which position would warrant a Gold One ?

I don;t know enough about it to comment really, but I think it was something to do with 2nd or 1st class travel and whthe rsleepers berths were included.

I have no problem with rail staff having PRIV etc., but in my eyes one of the big arguments is flawed. One argument which has been presented by many people is along the lines of: 'I wouldn't travel as much if I didn't have PRIV so the railway is making extra revenue overall'.

However, doesn't that argument apply to many people using the railways, no matter what job they are in? Many people who regularly choose the car over the railway for leisure journeys would almost certainly use the train more if they had 75% off and therefore bring the railway more revenue! Maybe not for 75% off, but isn't this the main argument for a National Railcard? (Of course there would be an upfront fee with this)

You are right, it's a very similar argument, which is why I support both. The level of discount can't be the same, as the old BR scheme was meant to reward long service and discourage high staff turnover when wages were low. But the principle is the same!

 

[Flamingo]

There are still lots of low-paid staff in the railways. I wouldn't call £15k a year a high wage, and I know lots of frontline staff who's basic salary is not much more than that.

 

[Greenback]

There are still lots of low-paid staff in the railways. I wouldn't call £15k a year a high wage, and I know lots of frontline staff who's basic salary is not much more than that.

Indeed, but I was thinking more of the senior managers who, under BR, would have been nowhere near the salaries of today's top TOC managers. The idea of unlimited travel after retirement would have helped to recruit top young graduates to the industry when they could have earnt a great deal more in the private sector.

 

[Flamingo]

True, but those managers are not the ones who are supposed to "ruining the railway" with their unreasonable demands!

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Must be very slow if it's taken this long to report it!

My employer is Balfour Beatty and I don't get a free ride in a Tamper, maybe I should suggest that as a perk? !

 

[moggie]

Now I don't wish to get all moral and that but it but can we get something straight about subsides;

Government Subsidy – is a payment made to an organisation to provide a service on behalf of government for the benefit of the public that otherwise would be uneconomic to provide on a commercial basis and would therefore not otherwise be provided.
i.e. it is not provided as a sop for the benefit of staff and shareholders or to keep rail staff from the job centre, though it may well add beneficially to a company bottom line and have other positive social benefits.
I have no doubt that subsidised train services have been used by many a Fleet St journo to get home full of booze 'after hours'.


Envy (source wikip): Dante defined this as "a desire to deprive other men of theirs." Envy can be directly related to the Ten Commandments, specifically "Neither shall you desire... anything that belongs to your neighbour". In Dante's Purgatory, the punishment for the envious is to have their eyes sewn shut with wire because they have gained sinful pleasure from seeing others brought low. Aquinas described envy as "sorrow for another's good".

With the level the DT sinks to on a regular basis nowdays to fill its column inches I doubt they are even aware their whole article is based on one of the seven deadly sins. Greed being another of the DT’s favourite subjects. You really would think they'd have better things to write about.

PS: Darandio - respect to the ol' fella. Salt of the earth railwayman.

 

[Caped Crusader]

So if I start up a business and apply to the government/local council for a grant to help me start up, or locate to a different area, then I should be banned from allowing the staff that work for me discount.

That'll work

 

[GB]

I do wonder if there could be an answer for this post or if the moderators will delete this as "rude"? If everyone could pay quarter fares would it be good for the railways?

Simple economics and supply and demand would tell you that giving every commuter the same concessions as a priv ticket/pass holder would not be good for business and I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise. If your that bothered then start a petition and do something about it:roll:.

Your posts on the subject do seem to come across as "I don't have it so no one should".

 

[western Champion]

MS grades were, IIRC, management salaried staff, and were graded numerically like the clerical grades, which were CO1-5 with a CO5 being highest.

I was told that when a CO5 was promoted to MS1, they lost the right to overtime, shift allowances and so on, but had a far higher basic salary to compensate. I'm not sure how right this informationw as, it was what I was told by colleagues. Anything of MS4 and above was equivalent to god like status to an ordianry clerical officer!

The bronze, silver and gold passes only apply to safeguarded staff, as far as I know they are not available to people who started on the privatisation. My knowledge is limited, but I always they reflected both the length f service and the status of the post held on retirement.

And, if I remember correctly, after MS5 came the EG (Executive ?) grades.

BRB members had gold medallions which were unlimited go anywhere first class travel much as status passes are today.

 

[Stewart]

Simple economics and supply and demand would tell you that giving every commuter the same concessions as a priv ticket/pass holder would not be good for business and I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise. If your that bothered then start a petition and do something about it:roll:.

Your posts on the subject do seem to come across as "I don't have it so no one should".

That is exactly my point. Because it is a publicly subsidised service.

I work for a private company and do not expect a single penny subsidy from them for the service they provide.

PS someone claimed earlier that PRIV passes cost the world nothing. Work that one out.

 

[Caped Crusader]

That is exactly my point. Because it is a publicly subsidised service.

I work for a private company and do not expect a single penny subsidy from them for the service they provide.

PS someone claimed earlier that PRIV passes cost the world nothing. Work that one out.

So the company you work for has never recieved a penny in any form of tax relief or business grant?
You have never personally gained an advantage working for this company?

 

[Stewart]

So the company you work for has never recieved a penny in any form of tax relief or business grant?
You have never personally gained an advantage working for this company?

I know, it may come as a shock.

 

[CarterUSM]

I think you'll just have to suck it up Stewart. Can't see them withdrawing priv travel facilities.

 

[Caped Crusader]

I know, it may come as a shock.

So is that a yes or a no then?
You can state 100% that the company you work for has never recieved any form of government/council grant or relief of taxes and/or business rates?

 

[Darandio]

I haven't actually seen a post from you yet on this matter that has made any sense, other than to think you work for the newspaper itself.

 

[AlterEgo]

So Stewart, I work for a massive multinational. Am I allowed to have little perks like discounted flights, broadband, and club entry? My employer, a TOC, received £40 million subsidy last year from taxpayers, but it paid back £110 million, leaving the state in profit.

Don't dodge the question like you did last time!

 

[DavidBusDriver]

Yes, I actually think that the issue of government subsidy is overblown, when you consider that, like on the buses, cross-subsidisation of quieter routes by the busy ones is illegal, so therefore government money is needed to 'balance the books' on those routes.

But then, in the grand scheme of things, that subsidy is paid back in the premiums!

 

[Greenback]

I haven't actually seen a post from you yet on this matter that has made any sense, other than to think you work for the newspaper itself.

The constant repetition of 'facts' without anything to back them up is a common tactic of newspapers pushing a particular agenda. Unfortunately, it can be pretty successful as a lot fo people, including my father, still tend to believe that anything they read in the papers must be true.

The most annoying thing about this particular story is that the basic fact of there being Priv travel schemes is true, but there has been no investigation or explanation of the costs involved, or how much impact that any costs would have on ticket prices.

It is just one person's (stewart's?) opinion, yet many readers will just come away from the story with a feeling that they should be outraged, even if they don't use the trains themselves, because someone, somewhere is getting something for nothing, even if they are not sure who is getting it or what they are getting!

 

[lincolnshire]

Staff Free travel perks, if they are free, why do I and lots of others have them assed for Income Tax then, as they are treated as benefits in kind. If you work for a train operating company you don,t pay tax ( I understand as your company is in the business of transportation).
I know from experiance that not that many active staff hardly use there perks as they are described because there two busy working etc.
So what about all the retired staff then? they are usually are sent out automatically by the railway pensions at Darlington and these will be sent to all who are eligble for them, so if your 60 and fit you get it and if your 90 year old you will still recieve it and have maybe never used it for years, so it just goes to show how distorted that these figures are.
Also what about the old employees of the British Transport Commison, they still get them too to my knowledge, so thats the retired staff of British Waterways, Dock staff,former National Carriers staff , etc, all getting on in age and I bet hardly ever use them.
If you think back to the days of Privatiseation , the Goverment conned Sea Containers when they purchased Sealink about the amout of B.R. staff usuing there ferries and the income from them and it turned out,,there was not the amount as they had claimed.
I use my passes as I worked for 43 years for them on poor rates of pay in the past, but if you do travel on trains, you don,t see to many free pass cards out these days, so Mr Daily Telegraph paper, I think you will find that there is not as many staff / ex staff useing them as what you think, just because they are issued doesn,t mean that they are used.

 

[Ticket Man]

just to add my two cents

I work for the railway and whilst I'm not paid the lowest salary, I'm far from the highest and without the PRIV rate (which is a real life line for me) I would not be able to work where I do.
Do rail staff stop being human when they are given a benefit by the industry they work for. I still have a mortgage to pay, bills to pay, and a family to provide for.
What benefits does can any company give to their employees (subsidised or otherwise) with out affecting the bottom line and passing cost to the customers?

Surely the the editors at the DT don't want their company credit cards cut up because it bumps up the cost of its papers for Joe public. (somehow, I'll think they'll sleep well tonight)

 

[harz99]

MS grades were, IIRC, management salaried staff, and were graded numerically like the clerical grades, which were CO1-5 with a CO5 being highest.

I was told that when a CO5 was promoted to MS1, they lost the right to overtime, shift allowances and so on, but had a far higher basic salary to compensate. I'm not sure how right this informationw as, it was what I was told by colleagues. Anything of MS4 and above was equivalent to god like status to an ordianry clerical officer!

The bronze, silver and gold passes only apply to safeguarded staff, as far as I know they are not available to people who started on the privatisation. My knowledge is limited, but I always they reflected both the length f service and the status of the post held on retirement.

Correct with regard to CO5 to MS1, which is why many in CO5 grade happily stayed there until their last few years, before seeking promotion to MS grade to increase their pension. The only allowance I used to get as an MS1 was for being on call (out of normal hours) when required.

And, if I remember correctly, after MS5 came the EG (Executive ?) grades.

BRB members had gold medallions which were unlimited go anywhere first class travel much as status passes are today.

Yes, EG grades were the next level up from MS; I suppose Divisional Managers, Commercial Managers and so on through the years being examples.

As you say it was BR Board members (as opposed to BRB employees) who had medallions, which as you and Greenback say, and to my recollection, varied according to a combination of final post status, length of service and thus free travel facilities available - remembering shipping services as well as First, Pullman and Sleeper.

 

[185]

Next week in the Telegraph: Scare the kids with a cut-out-and-keep Bob Crow Halloween mask!

 

[RichmondCommu]

I would not deny rail employees (and their partners / dependants) their travel concessions but i would expect them to stand when a train is full. I think that is only fair?

 

[Minilad]

I would not deny rail employees (and their partners / dependants) their travel concessions but i would expect them to stand when a train is full. I think that is only fair?

While I do agree with that, and as a PRIV holder I absolutely do. It might well be that the PRIV holder has actually paid more than a lot of people on the train for the same journey !!

 

[RichmondCommu]

While I do agree with that, and as a PRIV holder I absolutely do. It might well be that the PRIV holder has actually paid more than a lot of people on the train for the same journey !!

When i typed my comment i was really thinking about busy commuter lines rather than anything else where a staff season ticket would be cheaper than mine (i assume such things still exist). Having commuted in and out of Waterloo for over 20 years if someone had a staff season ticket it would be nice to think that they would choose to stand even if seats were available (trains quickly fill up!). However i don't think they should be forced out of their seat; there is no place for a lynch mob society!

 

[Minilad]

This ties in with my thoughts on cheap advance tickets.
The people paying the cheapest fares get the seats while a person having to pay full fare stand up.
Crazy

 

[RichmondCommu]

This ties in with my thoughts on cheap advance tickets.
The people paying the cheapest fares get the seats while a person having to pay full fare stand up.
Crazy

I agree that this is an absolute nonsense! Where possible (i.e. if the train is long enough) TOC's should provide a reservation free coach at peak times. I realise that in doing so there would be an ungainly race for seats but at least it gives "turn up and go" passengers a chance to get a seat.

 

[Minilad]

I agree that this is an absolute nonsense! Where possible (i.e. if the train is long enough) TOC's should provide a reservation free coach at peak times. I realise that in doing so there would be an ungainly race for seats but at least it gives "turn up and go" passengers a chance to get a seat.

Well we all know one particular TOC who's trains, in the most part, are far from long enough

Any guesses !!