Teenage son wants to be a train driver

[Beveridges]

I don't think that the correlation between job and ability is that rigid - there are a lot of very intelligent people working fairly menial jobs where I am.

Exactly the same where I am. I have lost count on the number of Cleaners, Night shift Agency workers, Security Staff, Trolley Staff and Gateline Assistants who I've had tell me they've got a Honary BSC Degree or a Masters Degree.

Similarly theres plenty of Managers and Drivers who I've heard they've not got anything above GCSE or equivelant

If anything you'll find the most qualified staff are at the bottom of the company, by a very long way, and the least qualified are at the top, these days.

However, I might just be making the mistake of confusing qualifications with intelligence

 

[SWTCommuter]

Don't forget to check if he would pass the medical, particularly with regard to the eyesight requirements. It would be better to find out now rather than risk being disappointed in six years time.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Exactly the same where I am. I have lost count on the number of Cleaners, Night shift Agency workers, Security Staff, Trolley Staff and Gateline Assistants who I've had tell me they've got a Honary BSC Degree or a Masters Degree.

Similarly theres plenty of Managers and Drivers who I've heard they've not got anything above GCSE or equivelant

If anything you'll find the most qualified staff are at the bottom of the company, by a very long way, and the least qualified are at the top, these days.

However, I might just be making the mistake of confusing qualifications with intelligence

Just because you cannot get the job, please do not lower the discussion by bad mouthing the people that have. Yes, there are plenty of people working in jobs that they would rather not be right now, but your other comments are somewhat churlish.

 

[the sniper]

It is such a shame that there is no clear cut route for school leavers anymore.

It's a shame none of the TOC's have ever really committed to providing operational apprenticeships like London Underground do, it'd have made my route into the industry a hell of a lot clearer...

Not that an apprenticeship would have lead into the driver grade, but it could incorporate a spell of modern 'second-manning' to give an appreciation of the role.

 

[richw]

Exactly the same where I am. I have lost count on the number of Cleaners, Night shift Agency workers, Security Staff, Trolley Staff and Gateline Assistants who I've had tell me they've got a Honary BSC Degree or a Masters Degree.

Half the problem with people with degrees being in such positions, is due to the number of "ridiculous degree" subjects available. One university prospectus i seen had a degree in paper modelling, basically making paper airplanes etc.
We get loads of people with degrees applying at my work. We pay our staff basic rate as minimum wage. One observation is that a degree or other qualifications does not mean the applicant has any common sense or social skills. In my line of work common sense and ability to socialise is 2 of the most important attributes.

 

[E&W Lucas]

This thread was started by someone asking a sensible question, of relevance to many who frequent this forum. Perhaps it is best not to reduce it to abuse of those who have been through higher education?

If you want to discuss the dilution of education standards, the stupidity of trying to pretend that 50% of the population are university materiel, and of massaging the dole figures by directing young people onto meaningless degree courses, which lack any sort of academic rigour ( and at their own expense), then can I suggest that we do so in the general discussion area of the site please?

 

[91111]

I agree with what most people have said. Does your son just want to be specifically a train driver or does he just have a love for the industry and simply wishes to be part of it?

Personally I became a gateline operator (unforunately through an agency) 2 weeks after leaving college at 18. I am now 21 and have been working in the same job for 3 and a half years (still agency) and am afraid it is really very difficult, within all this time there has only been a handful of jobs that I have actually been able to apply for as my company usually recruits internally (agency does not count as internal) and the jobs rarely go external which may be a point bearing in mind.

My advice for your son would be to go to college and try get a good set of qualifications, also being 18 it should be easier for him to make the transition into the adult world of work. After college it may be worth his while getting a lower job such as mine on the railway as experience seems to be very valuable when going for higher jobs within the industry and just stick it out for a few years untill he gets his break.

 

[blacknight]

Personally I became a gateline operator (unforunately through an agency) 2 weeks after leaving college at 18. I am now 21 and have been working in the same job for 3 and a half years (still agency) and am afraid it is really very difficult, within all this time there has only been a handful of jobs that I have actually been able to apply for as my company usually recruits internally (agency does not count as internal) and the jobs rarely go external which may be a point bearing in mind.

As of 1 October 2011 Agency Workers Regulations give an agency worker working for a single hirer & under their supervision the right to be given access to any internal vacancies with company & right to apply for a position within company.

 

[387star]

With lots of advice on the structured interview some advice on the managers interview may be welcomed.

Some talk about it as a more informal chat but it is presumably quite a test?

 

[Beveridges]

With lots of advice on the structured interview some advice on the managers interview may be welcomed.

Some talk about it as a more informal chat but it is presumably quite a test?

It might INCLUDE an informal chat but the Interview with the manager is very much a test, just like the psychometrics, the difference is of cause that you don't have to give up if you fail it twice, otherwise I'd have gone years ago!!!

It can be FAR harder than the psychometrics, often you can have 20 people being interviewed and just 2 jobs and you've got to come in the top 2!

The Depot Managers Interview (from my experience of doing several) is mostly, by far, questions that are of the format: "Describe a time when" and these make up the vast majority of the questions & will decide if you pass or fail.
They can ask anything on these sort of questions, the range is almost endless.

It still differs from the Structured Interview. In summary, there are 3 major differences:
1) The questions vary a lot
2) The questions can include customer service ones
3) There are a few "corporate" type questions thrown in like "what do you know about the role" "what do you know about the company"... These corporate type questions are easy so if you do your research you can earn some 'easy points' on these questions, but mainly the "Describe a time when" type questions are what will sort out the passes from the failures.

 

[TDK]

My son who is nearly 15 is interested in becoming a train driver. Could someone tell me please what he would need to do/where to apply? And what relevant voluntary work he could do which would help on his cv? Thanks.

It is a long time until he is 21, if you look statistically I would say a very large percetage of young railway enthusiasts want to be train drivers. I would personally wait until he has decided when he is older and completed his education before even attempting to set him up for the role as the time between now and he is 21 may be wasted on other things he may be able to accomplish. The role of a train driver in my opinion will not suit most 21 year olds as to be quite frank he will have no social life and at this age he will hopefully will have a good soacial life, it won't take long for mates to dissapear if he cannot socialise with them.

If he is serious about doing the job when is is 20 then this will be the time to ask questions. I have interviewed many drivers and the main factors really are experience of working alone, having done shift work, a basic knowledge of mechanics, experience in some sort of customer services, a clean criminal recors especially alcohol relates offences, to be able to get to work at 4am and within an hour of the depot.

All these things take time to achieve and by the age of 21 if he hasn't achieved most or even all of these he will not be considered for the role.

So to sum up, let him find his own driection and mature into a young man and then see what he wants.

 

[GB]

It might INCLUDE an informal chat but the Interview is very much a test, just like the psychometrics, the difference is of cause that you don't have to give up if you fail it twice, otherwise I'd have gone years ago!!!

I thought if you failed the structured interview is counts against your two attempts?

 

[387star]

Beveridges: The describe a time part of the managers interview sounds like structured interview part two then ie competency based yet again

 

[Beveridges]

I thought if you failed the structured interview is counts against your two attempts?

I was talking entirely about the interview with the driver manager not the structured one. Of cause, yes, the manager interview questions are MOSTLY competency based

 

[387star]

So to clarify two competency interviews to prepare for.

Structured is perhaps more psychometric and involves detailed responses whereas the managers asks to the point questions from a number of angles.

That's what I glean from your response anyway

 

[Simon11]

Regarding people with degrees entering the railway industry at the low level like Cleaning.

A degree isn’t worth much these days.

What counts is actual work experience in the industry.

I spent a year before I started the final year working for a railway company in the commercial department and upon finishing my final exam jumped straight into a job at another TOC.

There are opportunities, but you have to work hard to improve your CV.

A good group worth noticing is Young Rail Professionals!

I've made several contacts in different Rail Companies and I see it as the best way to network in the industry.

Try Linkedin if your wishing to get into a role as a professional in the rail industry.

 

[Latecomer]

So to clarify two competency interviews to prepare for.

Structured is perhaps more psychometric and involves detailed responses whereas the managers asks to the point questions from a number of angles.

That's what I glean from your response anyway

I think that's a reasonable enough assessment of the difference (in my experience at least). The managers will have seen the results of all the tests and of the structured interview so they are unlikely to feel the need to drill down on certain points if they felt they were addressed competently in the structured one. You may still get similar questions though - such as "name a time when you dealt with an emergency situation, what did you do?", etc. If the structured interview was borderline then perhaps they may scrutinise your answers a bit more.

I would say that at structured interview they narrow down your answers into the smallest detail and people could come unstuck if they have chosen either a bad example or made one up. At the manager interview you need to show that you have an interest in the company and that you have done a bit of research and can present yourself well. Being as calm and composed as you can be goes a long way. Get information on their performance figures, what routes they operate, how long they have been running the franchise, who the MD is, etc. I got a sense that they were already satisfied that I had the ability to undergo training (via the assessments) and that it was somewhat more about assessing me as a character and whether I would fit in to the company. I still got asked questions like "name the three main competencies required of a train driver" but showing you are interested goes a long way as does the odd smile or two however stressed you may feel.

 

[Beveridges]

Just be aware do not underestimate the "Describe a time when" competency questions in the Interview with the Manager. They are certainly after detailed responses. The questions they use will differ from the Structured Interview ones normally. Everyone knows what the structured Interview questions are, they don't change and its the same 5 'core' questions. The manager interview can ask to describe a time when you did anything... from 'describe a time when you rectified a fault' to 'describe a time when you made a sacrifice to achieve a goal' to 'describe a time when you had lots of things going on at once and had to prioritise'. Or questions from 'describe a time you had to make a challenging or difficult decision' to 'describe a time you used problem solving skills to provide good customer service'. I've even had RULES questions thrown in testing my rules knowledge!
E.G. 'Describe a time when the Conductor is allowed to travel in the driving cab' I didn't have a clue at the time as I was only a Shunter and never been on the mainline in my life, got it completely wrong and thought it was a bad question though would give Conductors an advantage to get the job.
You've just got to hope they don't ask rules questions in an interview otherwise you're knackered, I must admit I've only had it once, but it shows it can happen. I wouldn't recommend trying to read the entire rulebook to prepare for an interview however. That would take forever without the help from a trainer/instructor and you may not even get a rules question. However, be aware rules questions can and do appear from time to time.

Regarding competency-based questions, how good the examples are, along with the amount of detail you give, will be what will sort out the passers from the failures. Detail is extremely important in the interview with the manager from my experience especially if say you have 10 people being interviewed for every 1 job.
Psychometric test results has absolutely no effect on the Interview with the line manager in many cases- none of the interviews I've taken took it into account.

Of cause there will be some corporate questions as well to see if your interested in the job, etc. but these will probably be worth about 10% of the interview scores and the competency-based 'examples' questions will be worth 90%.


Going back to the subject of Degrees and work experience. Even Work Experience is not everything, not will it always help, for example I've got experience of actually Driving Units (but within the confines of Blackpool Sidings) and actually get beat at Interviews all the time by Conductors who have no experience of Driving Units at all (at least officially!)

Work experience and qualifications help but the thing thats by far the most important, above all else, is performance in the Interview. Sometimes however the very best thing you can do is get well in with the management. Management are far more likely to pass their mates in an Interview than someone who they don't know.

And finally, even if you pass the Interview do not expect to get the job!! I've passed everything twice now & was (wrongly) expecting a job offer, and didn't get one. Got put on hold for a while then got told my interview pass is no longer valid and I have to reapply. This seems to be the norm these days, especially outside the South East.

 

[Latecomer]

Work experience and qualifications help but the thing thats by far the most important, above all else, is performance in the Interview. Sometimes however the very best thing you can do is get well in with the management. Management are far more likely to pass their mates in an Interview than someone who they don't know.

Performance of course matters in the interview. Your slant on the interview process and what you believe is required to get through is far removed from mine. Both I and a friend of mine recently passed manager interviews (with different TOC's) without having worked in the industry previously and therefore without "getting on well with management". What I believe they did do was value our complimentary experience and appreciate the effort we put into our interviews, not least because we had to put in extra work to acquire knowledge and information of the company and what is required to be a good driver.

 

[pendolino]

I've even had RULES questions thrown in testing my rules knowledge!
E.G. 'Describe a time when the Conductor is allowed to travel in the driving cab' I didn't have a clue at the time as I was only a Shunter and never been on the mainline in my life, got it completely wrong and thought it was a bad question though would give Conductors an advantage to get the job.

What was your answer, just out of interest?

 

[Beveridges]

It was a complete guess but I said to help the Driver if the AWS fails.
Completely wrong and later I read the rulebook only to find out that the answer was to help the driver examine the line. I was kicking myself afterwards for not working that one out, but if I've never learned that rule then I'm not going to know.

Re: Getting on with management - I never said it was always essential, but many, many believe its something that will increase your chances every time, and I'm starting to agree.

 

[notadriver]

It was a complete guess but I said to help the Driver if the AWS fails.
Completely wrong and later I read the rulebook only to find out that the answer was to help the driver examine the line. I was kicking myself afterwards for not working that one out, but if I've never learned that rule then I'm not going to know.

I was once told by a shunter-driver that all he needed to do to go main line driving was route learning. obviously not true !

 

[Beveridges]

You have to do the entire course again, the same course as a cleaner would do if he also got the job.
This even includes traction (even if you sign the same traction on the depot you have to do the exact same thing all over again)

 

[pendolino]

It was a complete guess but I said to help the Driver if the AWS fails.
Completely wrong and later I read the rulebook only to find out that the answer was to help the driver examine the line. I was kicking myself afterwards for not working that one out, but if I've never learned that rule then I'm not going to know.

Hmmm. You see, when you said you'd been asked a rules question when you've never been on a rules course that covers that scenario, it made me wonder whether that question was asked not to ascertain your level of knowledge of the intricacies of the rule book, but to determine whether you can recognise and be honest about the limits of your competence, and as a consequence be trusted not to carry out tasks and activities for which you have received no training. The last thing that the railway (or any safety-critical industry) needs is a 'loose cannon' who goes ahead and does something on the basis of an assumption about what he thinks is the correct procedure.

Maybe the interviewer was genuinely incompetent (in asking a question to test your knowledge of a section of the rule book in which you've never received instruction), but (s)he could have been being very astute, testing to see if you were able to say 'I don't know the answer to that question, I've never been trained in rules. And if put in a similar position as a driver, I would speak to (e.g.) my line manager for advice and clarification before carrying out a procedure for which I am not sure I'm competent'.

Just a thought.

 

[Beveridges]

Maybe the interviewer was genuinely incompetent (in asking a question to test your knowledge of a section of the rule book in which you've never received instruction), but (s)he could have been being very astute, testing to see if you were able to say 'I don't know the answer to that question, I've never been trained in rules. And if put in a similar position as a driver, I would speak to (e.g.) my line manager for advice and clarification before carrying out a procedure for which I am not sure I'm competent'.

I did say exactly this to them. But they requested that I answered the question. I said that I do not believe in guessing. But they kept asking "What do you think the answer would be"?
They made it clear that only way to pass that question would have been a correct answer, and that it was not a trick question to see if I would guess my way around it if I did not know. All the other candidates were Conductors so the said question would not have been a problem to them.
I think the Interviewers when they Interview Internal applicants only have Conductors in mind when they advertise for jobs and draw up the questions. Thus creating situations like this.
They then moved onto another rules question after this! Again, another one from a section of the rulebook I've yet to be trained on. However, again it would have been in the Conductors rules training.

 

[TDK]

It was a complete guess but I said to help the Driver if the AWS fails.
Completely wrong and later I read the rulebook only to find out that the answer was to help the driver examine the line. I was kicking myself afterwards for not working that one out, but if I've never learned that rule then I'm not going to know.

Re: Getting on with management - I never said it was always essential, but many, many believe its something that will increase your chances every time, and I'm starting to agree.

Unless you are a qualified driver you should not be asked any competency questions, however, the answer above regarding the AWS was incorrect, there are other occasions when the guard can be in the cab, I think you have had to endure these competency questions because you are a shunter driver and so classed as a qualified to be honest. The guard for you info can only be in the cab for examining the line in a tunnel or in darkness and only if the driver deems it nesscesary. The guard can also be in the cab if the rules and regulations permit, that is the answer you should have given instead of guessing. So if a competency question is asked the answer is always " if the rules and regulations permit" if you do not know the answer or not familiar with the rule book. That is what the interviewer is looking for not wild guesses as it you wild guess when qualified this is a certain instant failure.
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. I've even had RULES questions thrown in testing my rules knowledge!
E.G. 'Describe a time when the Conductor is allowed to travel in the driving cab' I didn't have a clue at the time as I was only a Shunter and never been on the mainline in my life, got it completely wrong and thought it was a bad question though would give Conductors an advantage to get the job.
You've just got to hope they don't ask rules questions in an interview otherwise you're knackered,

as above, if you are not from the rail idustry you should not be asked rules questions, if you are the interviewer is searching for an answewr to how you will cope in an out of course situation without knowing the rule for it! The answer is simple, as above. Conductors have many advantages at interview as they already have the criteria in place for the learning process and shifts.

Regarding competency-based questions, how good the examples are, along with the amount of detail you give, will be what will sort out the passers from the failures. Detail is extremely important in the interview with the manager from my experience especially if say you have 10 people being interviewed for every 1 job.

Incorrect, if you guess and give a wrong answer this is a very bad answer in the eyes of a driver manager, if you give a load of BS and dig yourself a hole, this also is a no no, this is why some people who decide to look at the rule book and try to answer questions that are asked fail the interviews

for example I've got experience of actually Driving Units (but within the confines of Blackpool Sidings) and actually get beat at Interviews all the time by Conductors who have no experience of Driving Units at all (at least officially!)

this is an advantage but if you fluff the answers even if you have 30 years driving expeience on the main line you won't get the job.

Sometimes however the very best thing you can do is get well in with the management. Management are far more likely to pass their mates in an Interview than someone who they don't know.

Once again incorrect and this attitude as mentioned before really does not help you, hense the amount of times you have not passed an interview

And finally, even if you pass the Interview do not expect to get the job!! I've passed everything twice now & was (wrongly) expecting a job offer, and didn't get one. Got put on hold for a while then got told my interview pass is no longer valid and I have to reapply. This seems to be the norm these days, especially outside the South East.

Maybe there is someting in you work history or one of your references have told the company to avoid you, this happens a lot and it is not the norm, it is the norm for you but not all, there are many trainees being offered jobs with TOCS at the moment, you really need to step back and approach this job with a different attitude and vision. I do not know you but from reading your posts I have interviewed prospective trainees before with this sort of attitude "know it alls" we used to call them and because of their attitude and the thought of "this is easy peasy" I personally used to grill the applicants to find out more about them and why they thought they were a cut above the rest!!!! Not a personal attack mate just an honest open opinion.
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I did say exactly this to them. But they requested that I answered the question. I said that I do not believe in guessing. But they kept asking "What do you think the answer would be"?
They made it clear that only way to pass that question would have been a correct answer, and that it was not a trick question to see if I would guess my way around it if I did not know. All the other candidates were Conductors so the said question would not have been a problem to them.
I think the Interviewers when they Interview Internal applicants only have Conductors in mind when they advertise for jobs and draw up the questions. Thus creating situations like this.
They then moved onto another rules question after this! Again, another one from a section of the rulebook I've yet to be trained on. However, again it would have been in the Conductors rules training.

There are different questions for, qualified drivers, conductors and out of industry applicants

 

[387star]

TDK- very well put

 

[Beveridges]

Some points I can agree with, some I can disagree with. But where or when did I ever say or suggest that I was a "know it all"?