Tarka Line Travails

[Bamford]

There is a lot of anger over the past few days about the massive overcrowding on the Tarka Line due to the Class 175 shortage, particularly focused on the 07:22 from Barnstaple and the return 17:14 from Exeter which have both peak time commuters and a large amount of kids from North Devon going to Exeter College (see screenshots from local facebook groups). I know that in the longer term the 175s will help with this, although it's clear additional infrastructure to allow for longer trains that 5 carriages and/or additional passing loops, and GWR have hired buses, which are slower, in the shorter term to provide additional capacity. Obviously this will all require money, but what are the practical options for actual getting actual additional trains. I want to know so I can help organise writing to MPs. I assume all of these will cost money, so please don't rule these out on those grounds. I want to know what is practical for additional stock out of the following options:

1. Are there any spare trains that could bolster GWR's fleet and the crews are already trained on. There seems to be some suggestion that there are spare 150s, but is this true?
2. Are there any heritage trains that could be hired in to provide support. Again the preserved 150 seems the obvious option, but would pacers be compatible with 15xs to be brough back into service attached to them?
3. Could any loco hauled stock be used, the likes of a rake from West Coast, DRS, Saphos (e.g. the HST?), like has been done for Northern in Cumbria. If so, where is the right place to operate this on the GWR network to free up the maximum stock? Cardiff - Portsmouth / Exeter, Bristol - Oxford?
4. Is there any robbing other operators to provide additional capacity. Could even 1 or 2 15x units be sent from Scotrail, Northern, TfW ect?
5. Is there any completely under the wires services that could utilise electric stock to provide spot hire to GWR. E.g. Is there third rail units that could replace 158s/159s on the Basingstoke to Waterloo portion of Exeter - Waterloo that would allow spot hire to GWR.

I know some of these are out there ideas, but the railway is clearly failing atm and it needs urgent help. If we can't transport people what is the point of us, especially considering the massive taxpayer subsidies. This seems like it's a massive opportunity for GBR to start to flex it's muscles and show us what it is capable of in organising something innovative.

 

[evergreenadam]

Exeter students 'crammed on' trains prompt bus replacement

Rail bosses say demand is exceeding supply on the line between Exeter and Barnstaple.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[BBF3]

"Sky said she had to get a train from Braunton at 06:50."

Ahh, if only...

Not sticking up for GWR necessarily, but negative changes in further education provision in areas like North Devon (as well as Torbay and Yeovil), combined with the success of Exeter College (one of the most highly-rated in the country), the growth in the city itself and population increase across the West Country, have a lot to do with this.

I'm old enough to remember when it was still double track between Crediton and the other side of Cowley Bridge. Reinstating that is no longer the quick win it would have been decades ago and it's obviously not as simple as sticking a set of points and a signal in at Coleford Junction, but I would still say double-tracking Cowley Bridge to Coleford would be the least problematic way of increasing capacity on the line.

 

[TastyMaltesers]

1. Are there any spare trains that could bolster GWR's fleet and the crews are already trained on. There seems to be some suggestion that there are spare 150s, but is this true?
2. Are there any heritage trains that could be hired in to provide support. Again the preserved 150 seems the obvious option, but would pacers be compatible with 15xs to be brough back into service attached to them?
3. Could any loco hauled stock be used, the likes of a rake from West Coast, DRS, Saphos (e.g. the HST?), like has been done for Northern in Cumbria. If so, where is the right place to operate this on the GWR network to free up the maximum stock? Cardiff - Portsmouth / Exeter, Bristol - Oxford?
4. Is there any robbing other operators to provide additional capacity. Could even 1 or 2 15x units be sent from Scotrail, Northern, TfW ect?
5. Is there any completely under the wires services that could utilise electric stock to provide spot hire to GWR. E.g. Is there third rail units that could replace 158s/159s on the Basingstoke to Waterloo portion of Exeter - Waterloo that would allow spot hire to GWR.

1. No. Any "spare" 150s are sat in a siding awaiting scrapping.
2. No. A single 150 is not worth the hassle, and any reintroduction of Pacers/153s would require training/retraining as crew and depots will have lost the knowledge.
3. No. Again, introducing new types of traction would require training and depot familiarisation, and not worth the hassle. As for GWR's own loco-hauled stock, the sleeper stock is not passed for use on anything other than the sleeper service due to the slam-door stock.
4. No. I am told that GWR have asked, and nobody else has anything to spare right now that GWR could use.
5. No. It's hardly ideal to be splitting up Waterloo-Exeter services and even then it would barely free up anything.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 11:52 ==

Basically, the ideal scenario would have been to keep hold of the HST Castle sets until GWR were comfortable with the 175s reliability. But the DfT forced otherwise. Hindsight is of course a very powerful thing.

 

[30907]

When the trains concerned are formed 3 car 158 (as booked?) is there still a problem beyond (say) Crediton? Genuine question

 

[evergreenadam]

When the trains concerned are formed 3 car 158 (as booked?) is there still a problem beyond (say) Crediton? Genuine question

I saw the 1618 Barnstaple departure last week from Exeter St David’s. Three car 165, all seats taken and plenty of standing.

 

[ExeBlueBird27]

Surely something needs doing reasonably soon if the Bideford reopening project gets any further forward to add to the numbers.

This line is a genuine success story in the last 20 years, needs some work now. Would properly resignalling to a proper dual track between Crediton and Yeoford for the Dartmoor Line junction add enough capacity?

 

[Ashley Hill]

I remember when the majority of student travel on this line was towards Barnstaple for North Devon College.
Road coaches are currently being hired in the morning and afternoons to help with the overcrowding but students seem reluctant to use them. Do they not realise their passes are able to be used on them?
It’s not an ideal solution but until the 175 situation is fixed at least GWR are trying to offer an alternative!

 

[evergreenadam]

Exeter is booming but the rail network is struggling to keep up with the demand. Barnstaple needs to have a half hourly service.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Exeter is booming but the rail network is struggling to keep up with the demand. Barnstaple needs to have a half hourly service.

Maybe, but for Barnstaple it’s the morning and afternoon peak that struggle. Remember the maximum number of coaches for most stations is four.

 

[bramling]

Surely something needs doing reasonably soon if the Bideford reopening project gets any further forward to add to the numbers.

This line is a genuine success story in the last 20 years, needs some work now. Would properly resignalling to a proper dual track between Crediton and Yeoford for the Dartmoor Line junction add enough capacity?

Whilst it’s undoubtedly a success story, to put into context we are only talking about a handful of services. Same with Okehampton, when I have travelled there and back during the midday period on a weekday I’d estimate no more than 15 people on the 2-car train.

Clearly before any infrastructure work becomes justifiable the obvious next step is longer trains, though again the economics aren’t great for a unit being required for essentially two return trips per day.

 

[Bishopstone]

Are the coaches running directly from Barnstaple to Exeter, via the A361 and M5? If so, the journey would be bearable and not too much longer than the train.

But, if they're following the railway line down the twisty A377 and stopping at intermediate stations - I don't blame the students for giving the coach a miss!

There's also the point that bus fares are capped at £3, whilst the students are paying a train fare that's a multiple of that figure - though I note the college supports a discount scheme, which will be contributing to the 'problem'. Braunton/Westward Ho! to Exeter feels like a very long way to travel to take some A-levels, when provision exists in Barnstaple. Maybe the choice of courses is restricted in north Devon, or is it more a case of Exeter being a cool place to study and socialise?

 

[bramling]

Are the coaches running directly from Barnstaple to Exeter, via the A361 and M5? If so, the journey would be bearable and not too much longer than the train.

But, if they're following the railway line down the twisty A377 and stopping at intermediate stations - I don't blame the students for giving the coach a miss!

There's also the point that bus fares are capped at £3, whilst the students are paying a train fare that's a multiple of that figure - though I note the college supports a discount scheme, which will be contributing to the 'problem'. Braunton/Westward Ho! to Exeter feels like a very long way to travel to take some A-levels, when provision exists in Barnstaple. Maybe the choice of courses is restricted in north Devon, or is it more a case of Exeter being a cool place to study and socialise?

Westward Ho! to Exeter for A-levels is a pretty ridiculous journey, and not really good for students spending that amount of time travelling. Whilst not really relevant to the railway, it’s certainly IMO a reasonable question as to why people feel the need to travel this far.

 

[evergreenadam]

Westward Ho! to Exeter for A-levels is a pretty ridiculous journey, and not really good for students spending that amount of time travelling. Whilst not really relevant to the railway, it’s certainly IMO a reasonable question as to why people feel the need to travel this far.

Exeter College has a good reputation and perhaps offers more courses than are available locally?

 

[Kite159]

Are the coaches running directly from Barnstaple to Exeter, via the A361 and M5? If so, the journey would be bearable and not too much longer than the train.

But, if they're following the railway line down the twisty A377 and stopping at intermediate stations - I don't blame the students for giving the coach a miss!

There's also the point that bus fares are capped at £3, whilst the students are paying a train fare that's a multiple of that figure - though I note the college supports a discount scheme, which will be contributing to the 'problem'. Braunton/Westward Ho! to Exeter feels like a very long way to travel to take some A-levels, when provision exists in Barnstaple. Maybe the choice of courses is restricted in north Devon, or is it more a case of Exeter being a cool place to study and socialise?

Quite a few Exeter college kids have season tickets which I presumed are discounted by the college.

Another issue with the college kids is sometimes they don't like sitting next to other passengers and would rather stand in the vestibule areas causing a sheep like mentally of others boarding further along that 'people are standing, there must not be any seats left, I better stand as well'

 

[evergreenadam]

Exeter College rush leaves Tarka Line 'at capacity'

GWR has introduced additional coaches on the Tarka Line to cater for a surge in student passengers after term started at Exeter College, with the operator saying it cannot run more trains due to capacity constraints.

www.northdevongazette.co.uk

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Exeter College has a good reputation and perhaps offers more courses than are available locally?

Okehampton College has stopped accepting Year 12 (Sixth Form in old money) students from this Sept. They don't have any choice but to go to Exeter or Tavistock. This is despite the huge increase in house building in Okehampton.

 

[TastyMaltesers]

Surely something needs doing reasonably soon if the Bideford reopening project gets any further forward to add to the numbers.

Pipe dream, won't be happening for many years if at all. The time and effort is better spent upgrading the Tarka Line as proposed.

 

[bramling]

Okehampton College has stopped accepting Year 12 (Sixth Form in old money) students from this Sept. They don't have any choice but to go to Exeter or Tavistock. This is despite the huge increase in house building in Okehampton.

So seems to be both push & pull factors. It really isn’t ideal to have students travelling that distance though, the longer term solution to all this is to have good provision in the Barnstaple area.

It can’t create a great atmosphere for those using the service to commute to work either, I wonder if that’s part of the reason GWR seem to be attempting to cajole the students towards coaches.

 

[brad465]

This was discussed earlier this year in response to proposals to upgrade the line which NR and GWR want but need funding approval:

Network Rail proposed Tarka line upgrades

The latest RAIL edition includes a double-page spread about studies into upgrading this line to double the service, which includes the following: -ETCS (dependent on new fleet) -Another passing loop north of Eggesford -Changing level crossing at Eggesford to signaller control -Double track...

www.railforums.co.uk

The proposals include extra double track, changing level crossing control at Eggesford and even eventually ETCS, as part of plans for a 2tph service.

 

[cactustwirly]

So seems to be both push & pull factors. It really isn’t ideal to have students travelling that distance though, the longer term solution to all this is to have good provision in the Barnstaple area.

It can’t create a great atmosphere for those using the service to commute to work either, I wonder if that’s part of the reason GWR seem to be attempting to cajole the students towards coaches.

It seems to me the college should pay for school buses and the problem is resolved.

I think I read on Facebook that GWR will never be able to provide enough capacity for the demand, based on the current infrastructure constraints. One of the pictures is of a 166, which is the max that can operate currently

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It seems to me the college should pay for school buses and the problem is resolved.

I think I read on Facebook that GWR will never be able to provide enough capacity for the demand, based on the current infrastructure constraints. One of the pictures is of a 166, which is the max that can operate currently

And yet, they’re going to replace all services with 175s, which have less capacity than 158s, which have less capacity than 3-165/166s.

I appreciate there will be some 5s, but still. Just seems the least ideal train of the lot to run it.

I‘m aware it’s because they want to keep them down there and send the other classes to Bristol.

 

[Kite159]

It seems to me the college should pay for school buses and the problem is resolved.

I think I read on Facebook that GWR will never be able to provide enough capacity for the demand, based on the current infrastructure constraints. One of the pictures is of a 166, which is the max that can operate currently

The solution is to get the high density 3+2 seated 150s paired up to work those college kid services

 

[cactustwirly]

And yet, they’re going to replace all services with 175s, which have less capacity than 158s, which have less capacity than 3-165/166s.

I appreciate there will be some 5s, but still. Just seems the least ideal train of the lot to run it.

I‘m aware it’s because they want to keep them down there and send the other classes to Bristol.

A class 166 has 288 seats and a 3 car 175 is 208, an 80 seat difference

I noticed some days on RTT are 2x150 instead which is 348 seats, so GWR appear like they are trying

I wonder if 2x165 could run instead?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

A class 166 has 288 seats and a 3 car 175 is 208, an 80 seat difference

I noticed some days on RTT are 2x150 instead which is 348 seats, so GWR appear like they are trying

I wonder if 2x165 could run instead?

I’m not even talking about seats though. If we’re hearing of people being refused boarding, it’s a question of standing capacity. And 175s are a nightmare when totally full. When I lived in Cardiff I was regularly wedged in and there’s nowhere to go. The queue to leave the train would take forever.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Are the coaches running directly from Barnstaple to Exeter, via the A361 and M5? If so, the journey would be bearable and not too much longer than the train.

They are direct but I do not know which route they go.

 

[bramling]

They are direct but I do not know which route they go.

Even if they go via the M5 it’s still quite a torturous journey, and given the time of day presumably they will be encountering significant traffic entering Exeter.

There’s also the issue that road transport is statistically less safe, which might be of concern to some parents.

It really does seem like the solution to this is Exeter College opening up an outstation in Barnstaple, though I can understand that may well be unfeasible.

 

[stevieinselby]

Okehampton College has stopped accepting Year 12 (Sixth Form in old money) students from this Sept. They don't have any choice but to go to Exeter or Tavistock. This is despite the huge increase in house building in Okehampton.

Okehampton is a small town. It has one average sized secondary school ... but that is unlikely to be enough to make sixth form provision tenable. A good sixth form needs to be able to offer a broad curriculum that includes a wide range of academic and vocational options, and to do that you need a substantial number of students – an absolute minimum of 100 in a year group to have any kind of quality offer, and ideally at least 200 – but the school only has 200 kids in a year up to GCSE, so when you take out all the ones who are going on to apprenticeships or specialised/niche study programmes and qualifications, and the young people who are not going to continue in study at all, you're not going to have enough students left to run a good sixth form. And if you can't run a good one then it's better not to run one at all. Given that the school's last two Ofsted reports have been decidedly mediocre, I'm not at all surprised that the sixth form offer has fallen off.

It really does seem like the solution to this is Exeter College opening up an outstation in Barnstaple, though I can understand that may well be unfeasible.

From Okehampton, sixth form students would go to Exeter, Tavistock or Launceston rather than Barnstaple.
For students in Barnstaple, the obvious destination would be Bideford College, and Ilfracombe has a small sixth form as well.
I'm not convinced there is enough demand for Exeter College to set up an additional campus in that area competing with Bideford College.
If the rationale for doing so is to ease pressure on the Tarka Line trains, that really does seem like the tail wagging the dog, when students in any number of towns up and down the country catch buses and coaches to get to college over similar distances.

 

[bramling]

Okehampton is a small town. It has one average sized secondary school ... but that is unlikely to be enough to make sixth form provision tenable. A good sixth form needs to be able to offer a broad curriculum that includes a wide range of academic and vocational options, and to do that you need a substantial number of students – an absolute minimum of 100 in a year group to have any kind of quality offer, and ideally at least 200 – but the school only has 200 kids in a year up to GCSE, so when you take out all the ones who are going on to apprenticeships or specialised/niche study programmes and qualifications, and the young people who are not going to continue in study at all, you're not going to have enough students left to run a good sixth form. And if you can't run a good one then it's better not to run one at all. Given that the school's last two Ofsted reports have been decidedly mediocre, I'm not at all surprised that the sixth form offer has fallen off.


From Okehampton, sixth form students would go to Exeter, Tavistock or Launceston rather than Barnstaple.
For students in Barnstaple, the obvious destination would be Bideford College, and Ilfracombe has a small sixth form as well.
I'm not convinced there is enough demand for Exeter College to set up an additional campus in that area competing with Bideford College.
If the rationale for doing so is to ease pressure on the Tarka Line trains, that really does seem like the tail wagging the dog, when students in any number of towns up and down the country catch buses and coaches to get to college over similar distances.

Are we saying that families are choosing Exeter over Bideford because it is better regarded? To be fair that is a very good reason to make such a choice and it’s absolutely their right to do so.

However from my perspective I still find it bordering on insane to be travelling that sort of distance. Thinking back to when I was at sixth-form (St Albans) my journey was about 20 miles, and that was absolutely at the higher end of the spectrum. Generally the catchment ended in a circle bordered by Enfield, Whetstone, Watford, Luton, Knebworth, Hertford. Thinking back I can’t readily think of more than a couple beyond that radius, there was one from St John’s Wood but he packed it in because, ironically, the travelling was too much.

I do appreciate this isn’t rural Devon though. This does seem like a very specific localised issue for which a solution isn’t really available, in the absence of running a long SDO-equipped train. If this did exist, could it fit in the loops?