Tap and Cap: does it work?

[Skytower]

Hi all,

I’m aware that not all areas use this system, but here on Plymouth Citybus it has been a feature for some time. Neighbourly Go Cornwall seems to encourage its use.

However,m I’ve been more reluctant of late to use it for a couple of reasons.

The main one is overcharging. I’ve suspected this before, without bothering to chase it up, and in recent times have reverted to buying a weekly ticket. However, over the Christmas and New Year period I used Tap and Cap, only to be overcharged in the past two days. I’ve contacted the company, who - after several back and forths - agreed to action a refund of 50p one way, and £2 another. (I queried about the weekly cap, but apparently this is a Monday to Sunday cap, something I can find no mention of on the PCB website.)

Also, especially at or near a terminus, tapping off often means asking the driver to pop the machine on, delaying other passengers disembarking. I’ve also been met with some quite snarky reactions from drivers when doing so.

So, does the system work for you and is it worth the bother?

 

[Siemens Trains]

Hi all,

I’m aware that not all areas use this system, but here on Plymouth Citybus it has been a feature for some time. Neighbourly Go Cornwall seems to encourage its use.

However,m I’ve been more reluctant of late to use it for a couple of reasons.

The main one is overcharging. I’ve suspected this before, without bothering to chase it up, and in recent times have reverted to buying a weekly ticket. However, over the Christmas and New Year period I used Tap and Cap, only to be overcharged in the past two days. I’ve contacted the company, who - after several back and forths - agreed to action a refund of 50p one way, and £2 another. (I queried about the weekly cap, but apparently this is a Monday to Sunday cap, something I can find no mention of on the PCB website.)

Also, especially at or near a terminus, tapping off often means asking the driver to pop the machine on, delaying other passengers disembarking. I’ve also been met with some quite snarky reactions from drivers when doing so.

So, does the system work for you and is it worth the bother?

I don't have any experience of Plymouth but in Edinburgh the system has worked OK for me. I haven't heard many stories of passengers being overcharged and I'm a bit sceptical if anyone claims this. Personally I've been undercharged a couple of times (I've never known others boasting about being undercharged but maybe they prefer to keep quiet).

However the process in Edinburgh is to tap only when boarding. On the small number of routes with more than one fare zone passengers must state their destination and are issued with a paper ticket. There's no tap off, which I suspect is where your problems arise. In Edinburgh if the machine is faulty you'd only be undercharged for failing to tap on rather than penalised for failing to tap off on a faulty reader.

Generally the system seems to work satisfactorily in Edinburgh. But the boarding process can be quite time consuming, especially when encountering passengers who are reluctant to disclose where they're going.

 

[JD2168]

It has been in South Yorkshire with First for a few months now, main thing I have noticed is that the Tap Off machines rarely seem to be working & not many passengers seem to use it.

 

[Megafuss]

Used the Go South Coast capping system and it did seem to work on Southern Vectis and More.

 

[mikeg]

Arriva Yorkshire has worked fine for me. If the driver turns the machine off at the end of the route it's no big deal since although it just shows an incomplete journey the cost is the same as to the end of the route and is counted for capping purposes. Not that it makes much difference since most journeys cost £2 on the routes I use most and the whole Yorkshire cap applies to my journeys, which I seldom hit.
There was however an issue with one of my cards always coming up declined on the machine, though I'd still be charged. I don't know if this would affect journey cost were my journey to be one of the few 'short hops' worth less than £2.

Now if only more people would use it instead of this 'single to York/Selby' nonsense and contemplating whether they need a day ticket as they'll be making lots of journeys.

 

[didbygraham]

I use the tap on tap off with Plymouth Citybus and have never had any problems with it since the £2 single fare was introduced. I do occasionally forget to tap off - but as the single fare is just £2 thats not an issue. It was more important to remember to tap off before the fare were capped at £2 as it could end up costing more. My main 'complaint' is the positioning of the tap off machine on most of the double deckers as if there is someone in the front seat in front of the machine they dont always make it easy to get to. Just last week one chap held onto the pole just above the machine for the whole trip and tutted and grumbled every time someone asked him to move so they could tap off!

 

[northern506]

Arriva in the North East have rolled it out and there are a couple of problems:

If a customer wants a different ticket, for example a multi operator day ticket, and they tap their card too early they are automatically ‘enrolled’ in Tap on Tap off. This also applies for under 22 tickets.

Furthermore, I’ve noticed some ENTCS passengers keeping their contactless card in the same holder as their concessionary card and are unexpectedly charged on Tap on tap off.

So, when it is not the primary payment is is a problem. And unfortunately the driver cannot solve on the bus.

 

[mikeg]

Arriva in the North East have rolled it out and there are a couple of problems:

If a customer wants a different ticket, for example a multi operator day ticket, and they tap their card too early they are automatically ‘enrolled’ in Tap on Tap off. This also applies for under 22 tickets.

Furthermore, I’ve noticed some ENTCS passengers keeping their contactless card in the same holder as their concessionary card and are unexpectedly charged on Tap on tap off.

So, when it is not the primary payment is is a problem. And unfortunately the driver cannot solve on the bus.

To be fair this isn't the fault of tap and go but of the passenger. Especially with ENCTS passes, card clash has been well known about for years now.

 

[HullRailMan]

I used it in Cornwall last summer on both First an Go-ahead buses and was overcharged for the weekly cap ticket, not helped by having 7 journeys where I couldn’t ‘tap off’ because the driver had logged out of the ticket machine at the terminus before all the passengers had got off the bus. I did eventually get the overcharge refunded but only after having to speak to both companies more than once with both saying they weren’t the problem. I wouldn’t use it again for multi-operator tickets.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The main issues I have had in the Bristol area (First bus) are either the tap off machines not being on, or the tap off not being accepted. In either case if you don't tap off successfully, whilst for a single journey it doesn't matter right now due to the £2 fare cap, it does have an impact on return fares / day caps / weekly caps which won't be charged correctly if you don't successfully tap off. Thankfully getting a refund via the online portal is easy enough but it does rely on your actively being organised enough to check, notice you have been overcharged and then request the refund.

 

[Acfb]

I was a bit confused about First in Glasgow when I saw you could tap off on the bus (but I think I announced my destination at the beginning both times) and I didn't do that but I was charged £5 for two single journeys which was correct and I later discovered that the cheapest journey was less than five stops.

I've never had any problems in Edinburgh apart from when my card was declined on the bus due to the strange contactless successive payments rules. Also contactless is great if you're going into East Lothian (beyond Tranent) for example as you just buy the paper single tickets and then contactless is 20p cheaper at the end of the day than the £8.50 paper ticket.

My advice to anybody is to use your pin in shops/other businesses as much as possible to avoid any problems on the bus with contactless.

 

[Edvid]

I've made a few journeys on Grant Palmer buses using Tap On Tap Off, including some £3 return trips on the Luton busway; generally speaking it works for me. On one occasion (after riding the 42 from Toddington to Bedford) the exit reader wouldn't acknowledge a tap off; the driver, who may have configured the ticket machine for the next journey at this point, said I didn't need it because of the £2 scheme (yes, the "incomplete" fare was only £2) and that I would incur a second £2 charge if the reader acknowledged my payment device (no, that's not how exit readers work).

I've never had any problems in Edinburgh apart from when my card was declined on the bus due to the strange contactless successive payments rules.

My advice to anybody is to use your pin in shops/other businesses as much as possible to avoid any problems on the bus with contactless.

If you're referring to the PIN-check counter, it's not affected by transit-mode transactions; a necessity given their frequency in the TfL PAYG area alone. Your card issuer may have declined the transaction because of an issue on their end.

Separately - not applicable to your specific case, I presume - newly-issued cards require a first-use PIN transaction to enable contactless functionality.

 

[Hophead]

On Metrobus, if the tap-off reader isn't working (a not uncommon occurrence), the driver's ticket machine can be used instead - the journey is registered correctly in my experience.

 

[Skytower]

That’s another thing - the “tap off” reader. When it’s not been active on leaving the bus and I’ve alerted the driver to this, I’ve had many indicate to use the main machine to tap off. As far as I can tell from transactions, it hasn’t made a difference. Or does it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2024 ==

I used it in Cornwall last summer on both First an Go-ahead buses and was overcharged for the weekly cap ticket, not helped by having 7 journeys where I couldn’t ‘tap off’ because the driver had logged out of the ticket machine at the terminus before all the passengers had got off the bus. I did eventually get the overcharge refunded but only after having to speak to both companies more than once with both saying they weren’t the problem. I wouldn’t use it again for multi-operator tickets.

A bad advert for an area that sees a lot of tourists.

 

[WibbleWobble]

That’s another thing - the “tap off” reader. When it’s not been active on leaving the bus and I’ve alerted the driver to this, I’ve had many indicate to use the main machine to tap off. As far as I can tell from transactions, it hasn’t made a difference. Or does it?

Ticketer machines (i.e. the main machine) can be used for both tapping on and off.

I've seen it be used for tapping off, when the tap-off reader is defective or missing, but I've seen passengers tap off on it regardless.

 

[James H]

I've used it on Morebus successfully several times each year.

They don't make the capping arrangements as clear on their website as they might do.

I also think it's poor form for bus drivers to end the journey on their ticket machines on arrival at the terminus, preventing people from tapping off.

It may not matter at the moment but if the fare cap ever ends, training people that tapping off is not essential is storing up trouble for the future.

I also worry that if I regularly fail to tap off and am charged the maximum fare it will count against me as a 'strike'

 

[station_road]

Ticketer machines (i.e. the main machine) can be used for both tapping on and off.

I've seen it be used for tapping off, when the tap-off reader is defective or missing, but I've seen passengers tap off on it regardless.

And TrentBarton/Kinch only have the driver's machine for both tap on and off, they don't have a separate tap off reader

 

[markymark2000]

The main one is overcharging. I’ve suspected this before, without bothering to chase it up, and in recent times have reverted to buying a weekly ticket. However, over the Christmas and New Year period I used Tap and Cap, only to be overcharged in the past two days. I’ve contacted the company, who - after several back and forths - agreed to action a refund of 50p one way, and £2 another. (I queried about the weekly cap, but apparently this is a Monday to Sunday cap, something I can find no mention of on the PCB website.)

I've had a right to-do with Arriva Wales over this. They charged me normal fare for an England-England journey (clearly they hadn't set up their machines properly), took me ages to fight it, they said that the money would be in my account between Christmas and New Year and still nothing yet.

I appealed it via the Littlepay platform, but then Arriva took so long that the dispute disappeared off the Littlepay portal thing, and so I had to email them separately. All faff that I could do without. Easier to do a paper ticket and I can then argue the price there and then.

One of my more successful times though was in Leicester, I did some multi operator tap on/offs there and it capped at the Leicester Flexi ticket price which was really good. I did find it more faff tapping on and off all the time though rather than one transaction to get a paper ticket then a very quick barcode scan for each subsequent journey.

Also, especially at or near a terminus, tapping off often means asking the driver to pop the machine on, delaying other passengers disembarking. I’ve also been met with some quite snarky reactions from drivers when doing so.

I've wasted my time a few times on going to tap off, but then realising that the driver had already logged out of the machine.

Really, the tap off machine should say 'Tap off not needed' or something like that to try and reassure people that it's been sorted. Either that or the machine should permit tap offs and log them to the previous journey for upto 2 minutes after the trip has been changed (since no one is tapping on and then off within 2 minutes of a starting stop surely). I daren't tap off on the drivers ticket machine in case it charges me twice.


I think if the £2 fare cap ends, tap on, tap off will not be a thing for me, I will revert back to paper tickets. I only go tap on/off now on some journeys because I know what the fare will be.

 

[James H]

Really the tap off machine should say 'Tap off not needed' or something like that to try and reassure people that it's been sorted. Either that or the machine should permit tap offs and log them to the previous journey for upto 2 minutes after the trip has been changed (since no one is tapping on and then off within 2 minutes of a starting stop surely).

That's a good suggestion.

The passenger experience isn't as good as at could be at present - too much room for uncertainty.

The functionality of the Littlepay site is good but operators really ought to have a branded web portal.

 

[markymark2000]

The functionality of the Littlepay site is good but operators really ought to have a branded web portal.

The Littlepay site is good, I agree. It's annoying though that you can't just access the portal through normal weblink (unless the operator is using a subdomain like First do), you have to go via the operators website so it can track your cookies and show you the right logo. For enthusiasts who travel on multiple operators, you have to go through so many portals to get all of your information which is annoying too. Combine that with seemingly some operators ignoring the requests from passengers to make corrections, it's not very good in the end for users.

The passenger experience isn't as good as at could be at present - too much room for uncertainty.

Huge room for improvement. It is interesting though that where there is a pretty much flat fare and it's tap on only, the uptake skyrockets. It's an area which is often forgotten about but if you go to the West Midlands and use National Express buses, most people there are tapping on. You could load up 70 passengers there and about 85% will be tap on.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I generally find it works well with First Aberdeen. The biggest issue i've found is that the articulated Citaros don't have a tap off reader at the rear door presumably to stop people cheating the system by tapping off before their stop so it means you have to get off through the front door which of course increases time spent at stops. On the plus side it does work out cheaper, for example before a single fare in to the city centre would've worked out at £1.80 whereas now its £1.55.

 

[Shrewbly]

Tap and cap seems to work well in the West Midlands area, but slightly outside the area on Diamond not sure. First time time I tried it the driver didn't even believe it worked and made me buy another ticket - never got that one back. One of the local drivers always puts his hand over the reader till he knows which option you want to go for.

 

[Simon75]

Ive used it London before, no issues,

 

[James H]

London's a bit different from the other schemes because tapping on is obligatory for all passengers (so there's no option of a paper ticket etc), and there is no tapping off required.

 

[blueberry11]

I have seen Norwich (First) buses being fitted with these readers but they are not currently in use. I have checked on the First website when they are introducing them but it currently says 'no news available' so there is no date set.

Also, does failure to tap out count towards the day/week cap? In that case, it wouldn't be bad if you forgot to touch out for one or two (return) journeys since you will only be charged £2/4. But it may be a problem if you make at least three.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It works well on Arriva Merseyside, but they are a flat fare operator so there’s no issues with tapping off.

 

[johncrossley]

London's a bit different from the other schemes because tapping on is obligatory for all passengers (so there's no option of a paper ticket etc), and there is no tapping off required.

You can't get a ticket from the driver but you can still use a paper Travelcard by showing the ticket to the driver. Also, free bus passes from outside London don't work on the Oyster readers so they need to be shown to the driver as well.

Tapping off on buses isn't a major problem, or at least it shouldn't be. They've been doing that for about 15 years on all virtually all buses in the Netherlands using smartcards and now they have nationwide tap in and tap out using contactless bank cards. They have one nationwide portal for correcting incomplete journeys despite several public and private operators being involved. However, they don't do capping.

 

[LiviCrazy]

I’ve only really experienced it with Lothian Country and I do find it a bit slower than previous systems in the area. Whereas most people only really interacted with the driver/machine on a Monday to buy their Week Ticket, most people buy a ticket every day now. I find companies that use e-tickets a fair bit quicker in their boarding (again only comparing my local area, of LCB vs the now former McGills/First services). I think TapTapCap probably works better in flat fare areas.

 

[nw1]

On Bluestar the weekly paper tickets are no longer offered, so I've been using tap on tap off for a while.

To be honest I haven't bothered checking if I'm being charged the correct amount as I'm assuming the system works (particularly as the paper option is no longer available, one would assume they would take great pains to make tap on tap off work)!

Generally I'm so used to tapping off so I don't forget - but as others have said it's not such a big issue right now due to the £2 maximum fare.

 

[ALEMASTER]

It has been in South Yorkshire with First for a few months now, main thing I have noticed is that the Tap Off machines rarely seem to be working & not many passengers seem to use it.

Whilst the single for almost all journeys is £2 and multi operator daily and weekly tickets are excluded from tap and cap i can believe there isn't really much interest in using it!