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The ride quality on them appears to be good....
(video from X showing a less than desirable ride)
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Talgo AVRIL
- Thread starter finlaywilson2
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x.com
The ride quality on them appears to be good....
(video from X showing a less than desirable ride)
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TheHSRailFan
Member
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- 16 Jun 2018
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This is on the high-speed line right?x.com
The ride quality on them appears to be good....
(video from X showing a less than desirable ride)
Because blimey... I hope its thoroughly investigated.
Ride should be similar to any other recent Talgo: v good on LAV, reasonable to bumpy on crap broad gauge track. It’s only the power cars that are novel.
Esp as the 107s are rebuilt hauled coaches, assuming they eventually come into service.
I don’t blame video bloggers, they have to find something dramatic to get the general public to click on theirs.
Esp as the 107s are rebuilt hauled coaches, assuming they eventually come into service.
I don’t blame video bloggers, they have to find something dramatic to get the general public to click on theirs.
This must be why I spotted a renfe-livered S-106 at Plouaret-Tregor (on the Paris-Brest line), was very weirded by that sighting at the time but that must have been testing done.The trains are being ordered by "Le Train" whose future services will operate in the south-west of France. Here is their planned route map:
But 2+3 YUK, it's gonna be OUIGO again (some carriage in OUIGO TGV are 2+3)... It will be the first time AFAIK that we have 2+3 here outside of OUIGO HS
I understand it in some ways - if you have short carriages that comfortably accommodate 2+3, then you could view it as losing out on income/capacity if you don't make use of it. On the other hand, if you've got both Premium and low-cost brands, and your premium brand is the one with the naff seating layout...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Ouigo doesn't have any 3+2, it's 3+1 in the old first class section (due to the offset aisle), though the 3 side is almost as narrow as it would be for 3+2 without armrests. Different reasons to the AVRIL.
out of the loop on latest issues, what was Yesterday's incident?
EnriqueEspaña
Member
- Joined
- 1 Feb 2018
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- 132
One got stuck in the tunnel between Atocha and Chamartin without power for 2 hours. Consequently, temperatures inside the train rose to over 40 degrees, and passengers broke windonws for ventilation. Also no lighting available.
Of course that shouldn't happen but it also shows that it takes too long to pull a train out of that tunnel if it gets stuck for whatever reason. And that can't be blamed on Talgo.
EnriqueEspaña
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- 1 Feb 2018
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- 132
Its the cumulative effect of multiple break downs. Punctulaity between valencia and Madrid on services operated by 106s has fallen to about 72%. Delivery of train was 4 years late. Ride quality is poor. Numerous technical issues. Renfe want about 160 million euros compensation.
Just a short summary to catch you up
EnriqueEspaña
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- 1 Feb 2018
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- 132
My understanding is the only delays are admistrative and possibly politically motivated. Renfe intended to introduce Barcelona - Paris as a route in July for the Olympics, but mermerings over here is that SNCF are witholding approval until after the games.
So to answer your question, either imminent or until SNCF decide to start playing ball, which could be a long time.
I.e. never?
Austriantrain
Established Member
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- 13 Aug 2018
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- 1,786
Both the ICE407 and the ETR400 have been approved for France, so they do play ball, albeit slowly. However, if the AVRIL really keeps being so unreliable, it will give them plenty of ammunition for refusing or delaying approval.
which gives RENFE a choice of 2 approvable, reliable, in-production trains for their next standard gauge order for the Spanish HS network plus France and beyond. 3 possibly with TGV M if they can swallow their pride.
Pity they wasted a decade with the variable gauge 300+km/h dream which locked them into Talgo.
Pity they wasted a decade with the variable gauge 300+km/h dream which locked them into Talgo.
ICE is DB. DB and SNCF are a very solid partnership on anything not Eurostar, so it flows very well. + they are used half/half alongside TGVs on Paris to Stuttgart and Frankfurt services
The ETR1000 took like 3 years to get approved in France, I would see the same to happen here
Sir Felix Pole
Established Member
Travelled today by AVRIL set from Madrid C to Santiago de C in Estandar. 3 + 2 configuration - fortunately I had a window seat on the '2' side. Generous leg room still, but hard seats and quite a claustrophobic feel with low overhead luggage racks and high seat backs. Appallingly rough riding on the broad gauge high-speed section from Ourense. It doesn't feel like a step improvement on previous Talgo efforts!
HS2isgood
Member
Renfe moment. We have a great high speed network, operated by idiots. Poor Renfe workers that are trying to get people to their destinations today, because their bosses don't care about anything.
I wonder if an active suspension system could improve the ride of the Talgo concept at very high speed and on less than perfect track. The single wheelset starts at a disadvantage in this respect compared to a conventional bogie as the latter halves the extent of vertical movement of a single wheel in a small railhead imperfection as experienced in the bodyshell, while the Talgo wheelset transmits the full movement, albeit delayed and damped by suspension elements. An active system could monitor sensors on wheelsets ahead to prepare a perfectly timed active response to an oncoming change, in a similar way the APT tilt tech was modified to start to 'lean in' to an oncoming curve slightly before reaching it by monitoring sensors ahead of the particular actuator. That seemed to counter the nausea some riders had experienced before.
We assume the 2025 bug, if as simple as that, will be fixed pretty rapidly. Nice to know the bug got through all stages of validation though.
Edit: see end.
On ride, the puzzle is that S-102 and S-112 fixed gauge have been running at 300 km/h (330 capable) for around 20 years and the ride is good, albeit on the new network. The S-130 variable gauge has been around nearly as long running at up to 250 km/h on standard gauge.
On the one hand, there will have been reasons the S-130 was not originally for 300 km/h, though likely to be cost as those were designed to spend most of their time on broad gauge and would be under-powered for prolonged high speed running.
On the other hand Talgo were confident that their variable gauge wheelset was good for 360 km/h despite its additional weight when they offered the Avril for sale. Does the extra-wide coach body change the dynamics? Or is it heavy power car (can of worms) rough ride transmitting to the first few coaches?
My gut feeling is that if Talgo start redesigning their one crown jewel, the wheelset, it will take time, possibly fail with the risk of bankrupting them in their current state. Easier if it is the power car.
Likely outcome? S-106 restricted to 250 km/h? Maybe OK for an all-AVLO fleet taking over the stopping services as planned but Galicia does not get the promised journey times. S-107 and the Le Train orders canned?
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Talgo have put out a press release about the 'IT incident':
Edit: see end.
On ride, the puzzle is that S-102 and S-112 fixed gauge have been running at 300 km/h (330 capable) for around 20 years and the ride is good, albeit on the new network. The S-130 variable gauge has been around nearly as long running at up to 250 km/h on standard gauge.
On the one hand, there will have been reasons the S-130 was not originally for 300 km/h, though likely to be cost as those were designed to spend most of their time on broad gauge and would be under-powered for prolonged high speed running.
On the other hand Talgo were confident that their variable gauge wheelset was good for 360 km/h despite its additional weight when they offered the Avril for sale. Does the extra-wide coach body change the dynamics? Or is it heavy power car (can of worms) rough ride transmitting to the first few coaches?
My gut feeling is that if Talgo start redesigning their one crown jewel, the wheelset, it will take time, possibly fail with the risk of bankrupting them in their current state. Easier if it is the power car.
Likely outcome? S-106 restricted to 250 km/h? Maybe OK for an all-AVLO fleet taking over the stopping services as planned but Galicia does not get the promised journey times. S-107 and the Le Train orders canned?
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Talgo have put out a press release about the 'IT incident':
Last edited:
I think that saying "the ride is good" is a bit of a stretch. While better, they still ride like a bull compared to most regular trains.
Sir Felix Pole
Established Member
The older Talgo sets have their moments and can be rather rough at times, but the ride quality on the 'AVRIL' sets is a whole lot worse. There is a pronounced lateral, joggly oscillation and vertical bumping on the suspension stops - very reminiscent of the (equally bad) CAF Cl. 195 / 331s here in GB.
I thought at first it must be my particular coach, but I did linger a while in the bar car - like you do - which was equally as bad. I do wonder whether the running gear has not been sufficently updated to cope with the larger body shell?
I thought at first it must be my particular coach, but I did linger a while in the bar car - like you do - which was equally as bad. I do wonder whether the running gear has not been sufficently updated to cope with the larger body shell?
Was that on LAV or broad gauge though?
S-1x2 on standard gauge I've found OK. S-130 on broad gauge is definitely not good (but still better than S-121 where 26m conventional coach plus poor track at speed is a bad recipe especially at the outer ends).
S-1x2 on standard gauge I've found OK. S-130 on broad gauge is definitely not good (but still better than S-121 where 26m conventional coach plus poor track at speed is a bad recipe especially at the outer ends).
Sir Felix Pole
Established Member
The roughest riding on the AVRIL set was on the broad gauge LAV from Ourense to Santiago, but it wasn't very good on the standard gauge LAV from Madrid to just south of Ourense either.
HS2isgood
Member
Back in service from today
Being reported in spanish newspapers that Renfe now expect Avril to be approved in France by the end of ……. 2028, Paris services to start in 2029.
That would appear to leave Le Train without a train.
Chances of Talgo still existing in 4 years’ time?
Clarification: Renfe are blaming french processes rather than Talgo for Paris 2029.
Here is a more comprehensive article:
www.larazon.es
Also some detail on how to delay your competitors:
That would appear to leave Le Train without a train.
Chances of Talgo still existing in 4 years’ time?
Clarification: Renfe are blaming french processes rather than Talgo for Paris 2029.
Here is a more comprehensive article:
Renfe no llegará a París al menos hasta 2029, con cinco años de retraso
La operadora pública calcula que el proceso de homologación de los trenes Avril de Talgo con los que dará servicio a la línea finalizará a finales de 2028
www.larazon.es
Also some detail on how to delay your competitors:
EnriqueEspaña
Member
- Joined
- 1 Feb 2018
- Messages
- 132
I currently live in Valencia and just walked past the high speed station, seems theres an Avril in platform 1 with the fitters there currently. Ongoing reliability issues seem to continue