Tale of two Northern guards dealing with fare evaders.

[trainophile]

Okay, apologies for the daft phone suggestion . I was just thinking of what might deter the "chancing it" culture in the first place, and to deprive them of something that most people feel bereft without seemed like one idea. I never suggested it being forcibly removed, more sort of pawned to the train company for the duration of the debt!

 

[TurbostarFan]

Okay, apologies for the daft phone suggestion . I was just thinking of what might deter the "chancing it" culture in the first place, and to deprive them of something that most people feel bereft without seemed like one idea. I never suggested it being forcibly removed, more sort of pawned to the train company for the duration of the debt!

You don't need to apologise. Fair point.

 

[muz379]

Apologies not needed , its all part of discussing things with a view of finding better ways of doing things .

I do think it needsto be acknowledged that without spending disproportionate amounts you will never get fare evasion to 0% .

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Yet more completely unworkable solutions

Teachers can confiscate phones , but in my experience when I was at school they often only did so until the end of the day when the child could collect them . Or in the case of repeat offenders the policy at my school was a parent could come in and collect the phone although I never saw this carried out . As a guard if I confiscate a childs phone and their parents are unable to meet them at the station it could then be hours before I return to my depot and can then deposit it for collection . The depot I work from could be miles from the child's home or school . And you are going to have to introduce infrastructure to log , store and provide for retrieval of confiscated property levied against unpaid fares at ever guards/rpi's depot. I would bet the that the cost of infrastructure for this would dwarf any increase in revenue from introducing this system .

And if the child is being cheeky enough to claim not having any money , what is to stop them claiming to have no mobile phone and then what provisions does the rail staff member have to prove otherwise ? What are we now going to have powers to search passengers for the purposes of levying against property for unpaid fares ? That is going to involve a whole new module of training and to be honest probably would not be wise to do unless there are more than one members of staff present . So now we need 2 revenue staff for the train , at a time when many operators are trying to remove the guarantee that there will be any .

As other rail staff have already pointed out , schoolkids are generally dealt with by way of monitoring and reporting if they become an issue . Then the company can aproach the school . I know on one line I have worked this was done at one point . A representative of the TOC contacted the school and pointed out the TOC could seek to ban the numerous pupils attending the school from travelling on the train . Things then improved , including for a period of time a member of staff from the school being sent to supervise the children at the station after school . If anything could be done to improve matters in this area TOC's could look at better ways of getting guards to report these instances and collect and display the reports . Outside of school hours patterns are again monitored and rpi/tso and btp resources directed as appropriate . Although generally my concern with children expecially older ones outside of school hours is generally that they engage in asb on trains and at stations particularly unstaffed ones .

Is it worth all this hassle, just kick them off at the next stop.

 

[TurbostarFan]

Is it worth all this hassle, just kick them off at the next stop.

Exactly. They may only be travelling one stop but in such a case I'm sure that letting them travel free shouldn't be too much of a problem. Sometimes turning a blind eye is the best thing to do.

Not that I'm actually saying that it's right to fare evade of course, just that sometimes pursuing the issue causes more aggro than it's worth!

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Exactly. They may only be travelling one stop but in such a case I'm sure that letting them travel free shouldn't be too much of a problem. Sometimes turning a blind eye is the best thing to do.

My local train has a lot of fare dodgers and they are only intending to travel to the next stop anyway so when the guard kicks them off they are fine with it.

 

[whhistle]

We are there for the safety of the passengers first and for-most after all.

Interesting.
Recent briefs I have seen suggest that is changing a little bit - the most important person is you.
Obviously during a fire, there are things to follow but if it's someone with a gun, you should "run, hide, tell".

 

[LowLevel]

Interesting.
Recent briefs I have seen suggest that is changing a little bit - the most important person is you.
Obviously during a fire, there are things to follow but if it's someone with a gun, you should "run, hide, tell".

That's always been the case. You can't fight a fire arm with a ticket machine but you can and are expected to take actions to report on and attempt to contain the threat subject to regard for your own safety. Becoming another one of the body count helps no one.

Fire is a different beast on a moving train and isn't maliciously attempting to cause injury or death to individuals, it's a force of nature - you can take immediate direct action to either deal with fire or mitigate against it's effects by extinguishing it if possible, moving people away, sealing off carriages or if it comes to it evacuating.

 

[DarloRich]

I'd regard myself as not doing enough to prevent my own child from stepping out of line.

Some on here can see the gist at what I'm trying to get at, others don't.

I know what you are getting at, just think you are way off the mark! BTW you must have been a perfect child, never doing anything wrong. Most kids aren't like you.

I'm not suggesting using a firing squad, what I'm suggesting is the parents of children who have been caught faredodging would have to cough up the unpaid fare and failure to do so would involve action such as imprisonment of the parents (something that the kid wouldn't want) or the child taken into care (something that the kid wouldn't want) - OK, it is drastic but as I've said before it would s*** them up and if it happened to a few people then more and more people wouldn't take the risk. It would send a serious message that faredodging / defrauding the railways /whatever you want to call it would not be tolerated and the risks are there if anyone is caught.

Drastic is one word for it. Bonkers is another! Guess what social services would do if you suggested putting children into care for fare dodging. That's right, s*** themselves laughing. FFS they cant even cope with real issues that they should be dealing with rather than silly non issues like this. If it is that much of an issue (and I doubt it is really) recover the money from the parents via the civil process. Although I cant imagine that going down well with your beloved Daily Mail. They complain loudly toughen when people are told off for taking kids out of school for holidays.

(BTW - the reason the social services cant cope is because decent Tory folk like you keep cutting their funding! That is also the reason the prison service is in a mess and cant cope and the reason the court system is shambolic. Who knew..........................)

EDIT - what happens to the parent of the child over the age of criminal responsibility?

EDIT 2 - hang on - you are honestly suggesting locking a parent up over a small fare issue ( and with a half fare it could be a really small sum) and giving them a criminal record for something they haven't done, potentially loosing them their job, impacting on their ability to provide a home, stable environment and a suitable role model for the youngster potentially leading to them losing care of that child. Is that what you honesty think is a good idea? Bonkers isnt a strong enough word!

 

[trainophile]

It would be interesting to know what would happen if the ticketless person was turfed off the train at a barriered station, thus passing the buck to the gate staff.

 

[TurbostarFan]

It would be interesting to know what would happen if the ticketless person was turfed off the train at a barriered station, thus passing the buck to the gate staff.

You make a fair point! Hopefully an RPO would be present in which case they could get the person's details so they can be dealt with for the ticketless travel. Failing that the Police could always be called and dealt with it.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Yet surprisingly very few try it. The very vast majority are perfectly pleasant law abiding folk going about their business, such as it is at their age, having paid the correct fare. Some try it on and we deal with them as our employer sees fit. Funnily enough that doesn't involve giving their parents sentences exceeding those for manslaughter.

A lot do it and get away with it, i would know seeing as i am in the age group you are talking about.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

I'm not suggesting using a firing squad, what I'm suggesting is the parents of children who have been caught faredodging would have to cough up the unpaid fare and failure to do so would involve action such as imprisonment of the parents (something that the kid wouldn't want) or the child taken into care (something that the kid wouldn't want) - OK, it is drastic but as I've said before it would s*** them up and if it happened to a few people then more and more people wouldn't take the risk. It would send a serious message that faredodging / defrauding the railways /whatever you want to call it would not be tolerated and the risks are there if anyone is caught.

You must be having a laugh? The cost of sending the police and locking them up would be more than the train fare itself.

 

[TurbostarFan]

You must be having a laugh? The cost of sending the police and locking them up would be more than the train fare itself.

Indeed. However this isn't an argument not to send the Police at all, I personally believe that they should still be sent where no details are forthcoming. If the person won't provide the details to the Police then they can arrest under section 24 PACE as a necessity for arrest is that the person's name and address cannot be obtained. At court however I think prison would be too harsh, perhaps a Community Order would a better punishment in the worst cases with a conditional discharge or fine for lesser cases.

 

[LowLevel]

A lot do it and get away with it, i would know seeing as i am in the age group you are talking about.

Having been a ticket inspector for rather a while I reckon I've got quite a decent grasp of what goes on thanks - not only do I check tickets, I was even a child once

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Having been a ticket inspector for rather a while I reckon I've got quite a decent grasp of what goes on thanks - not only do I check tickets, I was even a child once

Many in my are will get on at a station called Starcross and instead of going to Exeter Central which is a manned station with ticket barriers, they go to St James' park instead as it is only 400m down the track and is an open station. You get a lot of people do this from all kind of stations and lines around Exeter to avoid fares when travelling into the city centres. Its a well known method in the area and has been adapted for different stations. A mate of mine got caught just a few weeks back and received a twenty pound penalty fare and was ordered to pay it. Which he did. He told me using this method everyday to get to college saves him around 850 pound a year so even know he got caught he is still in the green big time. I am not denying you experience i am just saying that it is an issue.

Another method that is used in large groups is the distract the guard method.

One person will purposely get caught without a ticket to distract him or her and if this person gets a fine then everyone contributes to it as they have still saved a lot money.

Just to say i have never done this i have just seen and heard of the method used. I have told my mates to pay for their journey but they won't listen.

 

[trainophile]

I think guards get to know the hot spots, i.e. where there are youngsters only going a stop or two, and boarding at an unmanned station. I know on one of my local routes you never get a ticket check for the entire journey, until after the penultimate stop, where suddenly the Guard appears and asks all the kids (for want of a better term) for their tickets. If any adults try to show their tickets he just waves past them, he knows who he is after. I won't be more specific about location but judging by the queues at the unpaid fares window on school day mornings (to get out of the barriers), I would imagine if the barriers were open there would be a fair bit of lost revenue.

Haha Charlie Smythe above just illustrates my point perfectly!

 

[Charlie Smythe]

I think guards get to know the hot spots, i.e. where there are youngsters only going a stop or two, and boarding at an unmanned station. I know on one of my local routes you never get a ticket check for the entire journey, until after the penultimate stop, where suddenly the Guard appears and asks all the kids (for want of a better term) for their tickets. If any adults try to show their tickets he just waves past them, he knows who he is after. I won't be more specific about location but judging by the queues at the unpaid fares window on school day mornings (to get out of the barriers), I would imagine if the barriers were open there would be a fair bit of lost revenue.

Haha Charlie Smythe above just illustrates my point perfectly!

Another thing that goes on is people get on trains that they know are busy and they see what door the guard get out of and go to the other end of the train knowing that it will take him to long to walk to them due to the amount of people on board.

 

[nanstallon]

I am amazed by how few on train checks are made. I've often travelled 80 or so miles between stations that are both open stations, with no check made.