Taking a long train journey but having zero time at my destination

[jednick]

I was just thinking what would happen in this scenario:

I want to visit a town a long way away by train, but I must return the same day.

I learn that if I leave early in the day, I can have two hours in the town I want to visit, and still return the same day.

I buy either a day return ticket or a couple of advance purchase tickets for the journey.

On the day itself, my outward journey is severely delayed and I arrive at my destination almost two hours late.

I'm unable to have any time whatsoever in the town I was intending to visit, because just a few minutes later I have to be on the (last) train back home.

I make it home on the last train back as planned, which runs on time. But I've totally wasted a day, being unable to visit the town I was travelling to.

I could probably claim my money back for the outward journey. But, if the return journey ran on time, do I assume I couldn't claim that back too? [with either a day return ticket or advance purchase tickets].

Importantly though, is it possible to claim compensation for my whole day being totally wasted with this pointless journey?

What would happen if my outward journey was delayed by a further hour, so I arrived at my destination three hours late and I totally missed the last train back home?

 

[Esker-pades]

What would happen if my outward journey was delayed by a further hour, so I arrived at my destination three hours late and I totally missed the last train back home?

In response to the part I have quoted:

I made contact with LNER about a similar thing recently. I was making a journey from Edinburgh to Newcastle and back purely to be on the divert services via the Tyne Valley line. So, I booked tickets with a short changing time at Newcastle (but above the minimum connection).

Before the day, I spoke to LNER. The person on the other end said that no matter what, my advance purchase tickets would be valid on any service after if my outbound journey was delayed. I took screenshots of my conversation to prove that I had permission in case of being questioned by the guard/ticket office in the event of a delay.

Therefore, it appears that if you missed the return service due to a delay on the outbound train, then you would be entitled to either a taxi or hotel overnight and travel the following day.

(If you're interested to know what happened on my journey, the outbound service was outright cancelled because the overhead wires came down. I didn't travel and claimed a refund.)

 

[jednick]

Therefore, it appears that if you missed the return service due to a delay on the outbound train, then you would be entitled to either a taxi or hotel overnight and travel the following day.

Interesting, thanks: What would happen, though, if my destination town didn't have any hotels (or vacant hotels)? What if I had work the next day and I absolutely must return home that night?

About the taxi service, what would happen if it was a journey, say, from Mallaig to Glasgow: How much might that cost, and where would I get the money from to pay for it?

 

[Silver Cobra]

I've almost been in that situation myself a few times. The first time being in 2015 travelling from Kings Cross to Newcastle on a standard class advance for the outbound and first class advance for the return, where the wires came down at Werrington Junction just before my outbound journey, and the second in 2017 travelling from Glasgow Queen Street to Oban on an off-peak day return, where a signal failure occurred at Craigendoran. In both of these cases, I chose to abandon my journey (at Peterborough in 2015 and Helensburgh Upper in 2017) and return to my origin rather than continue with the journeys, as I would have had virtually no time in either Newcastle or Oban before having to take my booked return service back to Kings Cross/Glasgow. I was given full refunds on all tickets with no admin fees in both cases, despite my planned return services in both cases running to time.

In the case of actually continuing with a delayed journey and upon arrival having to immediately take your booked return service, I'm not sure exactly what would happen there. However, I would imagine that the TOC would offer some form of compensation or gesture of goodwill if you explain the situation fully to them, especially if you had no opportunity to abandon your journey before arriving at your destination (e.g. using Kings Cross to Newcastle, if the delay occurred between Darlington and Newcastle on a service that doesn't stop at Durham).

 

[Essexman]

Similarly if your outward journey is severely delayed so you don’t have reasonable time to carry out whatever you intended to do at your destination, can you use your advance booking on a later return train than it was booked for?

 

[jednick]

I've almost been in that situation myself a few times. The first time being in 2015 travelling from Kings Cross to Newcastle on a standard class advance for the outbound and first class advance for the return, where the wires came down at Werrington Junction just before my outbound journey, and the second in 2017 travelling from Glasgow Queen Street to Oban on an off-peak day return, where a signal failure occurred at Craigendoran. In both of these cases, I chose to abandon my journey (at Peterborough in 2015 and Helensburgh Upper in 2017) and return to my origin rather than continue with the journeys, as I would have had virtually no time in either Newcastle or Oban before having to take my booked return service back to Kings Cross/Glasgow. I was given full refunds on all tickets with no admin fees in both cases, despite my planned return services in both cases running to time.

In the case of actually continuing with a delayed journey and upon arrival having to immediately take your booked return service, I'm not sure exactly what would happen there. However, I would imagine that the TOC would offer some form of compensation or gesture of goodwill if you explain the situation fully to them, especially if you had no opportunity to abandon your journey before arriving at your destination (e.g. using Kings Cross to Newcastle, if the delay occurred between Darlington and Newcastle on a service that doesn't stop at Durham).

Thanks for your interesting comment.

 

[jednick]

Similarly if your outward journey is severely delayed so you don’t have reasonable time to carry out whatever you intended to do at your destination, can you use your advance booking on a later return train than it was booked for?

Although in my example there was no later return journey, this raises a further interesting question.

If there were a later train that would get you home the same day, would they let you take use your advance purchase ticket on that later service? [if your outward journey is severely delayed so you don’t have reasonable time to carry out whatever you intended to do at your destination].

Thanks for your very interesting question.

 

[Esker-pades]

Interesting, thanks: What would happen, though, if my destination town didn't have any hotels (or vacant hotels)? What if I had work the next day and I absolutely must return home that night?

About the taxi service, what would happen if it was a journey, say, from Mallaig to Glasgow: How much might that cost, and where would I get the money from to pay for it?

It would be the TOCs responsibility to pay for your taxi.

I know people who have been stranded in very remote places (a friend once had his train from Kildonan cancelled). In that situation, ScotRail funded a taxi to Inverness where the geography (the Far North line takes a huge detour via Lairg whilst the road goes straight via Dornoch) allowed him to catch his original service from there southbound.

If that wasn't the case (and it usually isn't), then I would guess one would be given a taxi to the nearest location where accommodation would be available (such as from Beasdale to Fort William) where a hotel would be provided so that you could travel down on the train the next day. I very much doubt any TOC would pay the many hundreds of pounds that it would cost a taxi to do from Mallaig to Glasgow, as per your example. I don't even think any taxi driver would be willing to do that journey overnight without being booked well in advance.

 

[jednick]

It would be the TOCs responsibility to pay for your taxi.

I know people who have been stranded in very remote places (a friend once had his train from Kildonan cancelled). In that situation, ScotRail funded a taxi to Inverness where the geography (the Far North line takes a huge detour via Lairg whilst the road goes straight via Dornoch) allowed him to catch his original service from there southbound.

If that wasn't the case (and it usually isn't), then I would guess one would be given a taxi to the nearest location where accommodation would be available (such as from Beasdale to Fort William) where a hotel would be provided so that you could travel down on the train the next day. I very much doubt any TOC would pay the many hundreds of pounds that it would cost a taxi to do from Mallaig to Glasgow, as per your example. I don't even think any taxi driver would be willing to do that journey overnight without being booked well in advance.

Thanks for your additional information. Please can you tell me, how exactly does it work when that happens and the TOC has to pay for a taxi or a accommodation? I mean, paying for it.

I can imagine that if your destination station is manned, the staff there will have to arrange something and they'll cover the cost of taxis and hotels. If your destination station is not manned, do you have to speak to the staff on the train on your outward journey, when it becomes apparent you're going to get to your destination massively late and will be stranded?

I can imagine if there were no staff at all and you were stranded, you could pay the money up front for a taxi or a hotel, and then claim it back. But what if you didn't have the money to pay for it, is there a helpline you could phone and they would arrange it for you and pay for it?

 

[Esker-pades]

Thanks for your additional information. Please can you tell me, how exactly does it work when that happens and the TOC has to pay for a taxi or a accommodation? I mean, paying for it.

I can imagine that if your destination station is manned, the staff there will have to arrange something and they'll cover the cost of taxis and hotels. If your destination station is not manned, do you have to speak to the staff on the train on your outward journey, when it becomes apparent you're going to get to your destination massively late and will be stranded?

I can imagine if there were no staff at all and you were stranded, you could pay the money up front for a taxi or a hotel, and then claim it back. But what if you didn't have the money to pay for it, is there a helpline you could phone and they would arrange it for you and pay for it?

There are usually help points which have direct lines to customer services.

 

[skifans]

I've been in this exact situation, needed to stop some borrowed kit back to Windermere from Lancaster in the evening. Planned to arrive into Windermere on the penultimate service and return on the last. But due to a late running Virgin I missed the connection at Oxenholme. After some consideration I returned to Lancaster, went to the ticket office the day after and immediately refunded the ticket (off peak return, bought on the day) I got, I'll add I don't know what the official rule is, this was just my experience from around 1 year ago.

So I did not receive any additional compensation (just a refund on tickets), and I abandoned my journey. I don't know what would have happened had I continued to Windermere and gown straight back. But at a minimum in this case you should be eligible for delay repay of the outbound ticket.

 

[221129]

Similarly if your outward journey is severely delayed so you don’t have reasonable time to carry out whatever you intended to do at your destination, can you use your advance booking on a later return train than it was booked for?

Officially no.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Officially no.

What is the official source that says this? In my view you are allowed to do this, both practically and legally.

 

[221129]

What is the official source that says this? In my view you are allowed to do this, both practically and legally.

What is the source that you can?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

What is the source that you can?

NRCoT 9.4. For it to come into effect (thereby permitting you to take a later train operated by the same TOC as originally booked), the only condition is that "a previous connecting train service was delayed".

 

[Robertj21a]

Thanks for your additional information. Please can you tell me, how exactly does it work when that happens and the TOC has to pay for a taxi or a accommodation? I mean, paying for it.

I can imagine that if your destination station is manned, the staff there will have to arrange something and they'll cover the cost of taxis and hotels. If your destination station is not manned, do you have to speak to the staff on the train on your outward journey, when it becomes apparent you're going to get to your destination massively late and will be stranded?

I can imagine if there were no staff at all and you were stranded, you could pay the money up front for a taxi or a hotel, and then claim it back. But what if you didn't have the money to pay for it, is there a helpline you could phone and they would arrange it for you and pay for it?

I doubt that many people nowadays travel far from home without some form of credit card, or debit card with funds available. If you don't have any such cards I would assume that you'd carry more cash than usual.

 

[robbeech]

I doubt that many people nowadays travel far from home without some form of credit card, or debit card with funds available. If you don't have any such cards I would assume that you'd carry more cash than usual.

I understand the concept, but i also know a lot of people and i'm aware there will be countless others that simply don't have those sorts of funds available. For some people, going away for a couple of days costs them most of the money they have so to suddenly find themselves needing to pay out possibly hundreds of pounds for a taxi or hotel may not be possible even if they can guarantee beyond doubt that they'll be able to claim it back a few days later from the TOC.

 

[Robertj21a]

I understand the concept, but i also know a lot of people and i'm aware there will be countless others that simply don't have those sorts of funds available. For some people, going away for a couple of days costs them most of the money they have so to suddenly find themselves needing to pay out possibly hundreds of pounds for a taxi or hotel may not be possible even if they can guarantee beyond doubt that they'll be able to claim it back a few days later from the TOC.

It's only the same as if you go anywhere and get stranded. How would you pay for a hotel/B&B - or would you just walk the streets ?. I feel that it's irresponsible to travel far away from home with insufficient funds to look after yourself. That's why many people have a credit card, even if they never use it.

 

[robbeech]

I'm not disagreeing with that at all. I wouldn't do it but i know people who don't really have a choice, unless the choice is to never go further than the local shop. I know people who work away and have their train tickets bought in advance by their employer and wouldn't be able to afford to get their tea away from home if there was disruption let alone buy extra tickets, alternative travel, hotels etc. I appreciate it shouldn't happen but it does, frequently, frequently enough for it to be important that TOCs accommodate for this. I'm pleased to say most of the time they do.

 

[OxtedL]

NRCoT 9.4. For it to come into effect (thereby permitting you to take a later train operated by the same TOC as originally booked), the only condition is that "a previous connecting train service was delayed".

and also that you miss your train because of this.

Bit of a can of worms if you could have caught your train but decided not to in order to complete your activities.

 

[Iskra]

I had this happen to me twice, once I'd booked an itinerary with a 2 hour break at Aberdeen. On the 0710 Leeds-Aberdeen service. The front power car had some form of failure so we were limited to 100mph, the set turned at Newcastle and then terminated at Edinburgh, where buses were provided to Aberdeen. I didn't fancy the bus and a Scotrail guard was happy for me to travel on his train. I had 20mins at Aberdeen before getting the next VTEC service back to Leeds.

The second time I was trying to cover London Waterloo-Exeter but flooding closed the line and I was stranded at Honiton. They couldn't find any RRB's but ticket acceptance was put on local bus routes so I got one of those to Exeter but it was obviously slower. My originally planned way back home from Exeter was also blocked, so I bought a new ticket for a service to Leeds that was showing on time, but was likely to be delayed en route, so I could claim it back on delay repay.

1) I claimed (and got) delay repay for the delayed legs and abandoned journey refunds for the rest.
2) I like travelling on trains, so it wasn't a problem for me, it's part of the hobby and a risk you take.
3) I think the main thing is to know when to bail and return home, keep an eye on the situation and make sure there is always a way to get home (and if necessary be prepared to buy a new ticket or pay for a hotel).

 

[johntea]

These days I like to plan my longer trips in advance and chuck in a cheap hotel stay as it is a shame to travel to some of these beautiful places such as Scotland and then feel restricted by time! During the week unless there is a special event on I've found the average for a basic Travelodge or similar is £40-£50 (often they do promotions if you book far enough in advance which can even shave 50% off that!)

 

[whhistle]

The question is, how much do you value do you put on the day?
For you, it might be the cost of taking a day off work, or the cost of food and drink. Perhaps it might be the cost of getting up early - but how much is that?
No TOC would compensate for the lost day. I'd even find it hard to see TOCs giving anything as a gesture of goodwill.

I took screenshots of my conversation to prove that I had permission in case of being questioned by the guard/ticket office in the event of a delay.

Although it must be noted screenshots are next to worthless.
Anyone can doctor any screenshot to say whatever the person wants. I don't know any guard who would accept one as permission to travel.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Although it must be noted screenshots are next to worthless.
Anyone can doctor any screenshot to say whatever the person wants. I don't know any guard who would accept one as permission to travel.

It surely has to hold more weight than "the man on the platform said", or even "the staff member on the platform said"...

 

[221129]

The question is, how much do you value do you put on the day?
For you, it might be the cost of taking a day off work, or the cost of food and drink. Perhaps it might be the cost of getting up early - but how much is that?
No TOC would compensate for the lost day. I'd even find it hard to see TOCs giving anything as a gesture of goodwill.



Although it must be noted screenshots are next to worthless.
Anyone can doctor any screenshot to say whatever the person wants. I don't know any guard who would accept one as permission to travel.

Do you know any guards? Most would take them if it's from their TOCs customer relations team...

 

[Esker-pades]

The question is, how much do you value do you put on the day?
For you, it might be the cost of taking a day off work, or the cost of food and drink. Perhaps it might be the cost of getting up early - but how much is that?
No TOC would compensate for the lost day. I'd even find it hard to see TOCs giving anything as a gesture of goodwill.



Although it must be noted screenshots are next to worthless.
Anyone can doctor any screenshot to say whatever the person wants. I don't know any guard who would accept one as permission to travel.

How else does one prove that one spoke to a customer service department and got an answer?

 

[Pigeon]

It surely has to hold more weight than "the man on the platform said", or even "the staff member on the platform said"...

Only in that you have to spend five minutes with an image editor instead of just saying something.

It's weird the way people attach more validity to something when it's written down regardless of whether there's any justification for such a belief.

 

[sheff1]

An online conversation with a TOC Customer Service Team would surely be retrievable at the TOC's end.

Certainly when I have had such discussions with non-railway organisations they have been able to retrieve the conversation without difficulty.

 

[Roy Badami]

Although it must be noted screenshots are next to worthless.
Anyone can doctor any screenshot to say whatever the person wants.

Although doing so for the purpose of gaining something of value (such as carriage by train) would be fraud, which could result in going to jail. At a minimum, if convicted, it would get someone a criminal record and, being classed as a crime of dishonesty, potentially cause them significant problems with employment or even getting insurance until the conviction is spent.

 

[380101]

I understand the concept, but i also know a lot of people and i'm aware there will be countless others that simply don't have those sorts of funds available. For some people, going away for a couple of days costs them most of the money they have so to suddenly find themselves needing to pay out possibly hundreds of pounds for a taxi or hotel may not be possible even if they can guarantee beyond doubt that they'll be able to claim it back a few days later from the TOC.

Most TOCs use a third party company such as Cabfinder or CMAC to book their taxis through. The taxi that would take you to your destination will bill Cabfinder etc and they then pass the cost on to the TOC. I imagine if a TOC had to put you up in a hotel overnight you'd never see the bill as the booking would be between the TOC and the hotel, not you.