T&W Metro - antisocial behaviour

[Segedunum]

ETA The 2009 Regulations appear to dictate there should be two members of staff in every underground railway station. These don’t have to be on barriers or in public areas, they can be in an office, but they do need to be there. I wonder if Nexus have interpreted Metro as not a railway? I sense a FOI request coming on.

It wasn't uncommon for Central duty late at night to be stood down to reset escalators that the kiddiewinkles had knocked off at Haymarket and Gateshead, being one shining example. Like I say though, this *should* have changed by now.

Clearly there must be some logic as to why at least the deep-level stations can go sans-staff. Security/void checks were always a necessity though. Eg. If Manors was unstaffed then St James duty would need to periodically go and check.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Clearly there must be some logic as to why at least the deep-level stations can go sans-staff.

Only thing I can guess is Nexus have interpreted Metro as not a railway and that their stations are not railway stations therefore the 2009 regulations don’t apply. It would explain why Central has staff.

Otherwise it’s pretty clear:

10 (2) The periods of duty of members of staff must be so arranged as to secure that not less than two of them are present on duty in the premises at all times when members of the public have access to the premises.

 

[Amos]

Used the metro for the first time a couple of weeks ago, and though it did seem a little intimidating(particularly returning from Whitley Bay to Sunderland on Sunday evening),I didn’t really encounter any real anti social behaviour. I would agree that the system wasn’t really easy to use.Waiting at monument for a train to Whitley Bay, I didn’t expect to have to take one to St James,as to me that train would only stop at one station.

 

[urbophile]

It's a while since I used T&W Metro, but either things have got much worse in the last few years, or there is a big difference according to the time of day (I've only ever used it in daylight hours). From the accounts here the ASB seems much worse than on Merseyrail for example, despite the networks serving similar demographics.

Comparisons with London are misleading. The fact that driving a car is virtually impossible in much of the capital means that a very wide cross section of the population uses public transport, especially the Tube. Hence much of the time it is self-policing. In most other UK cities people with cars more often use them if they can, so buses (where they exist after 19.00) and metros are less well patronised so more threatening.

 

[Volvictof]

Longbenton is/was problematic specially when the local Catholic Comprehensive finished. There regularly both the Police and school staff at the station. Though once on the train it'd been a case of seconds out round two and the rioting would start again. What's more there'd be barely a word of English amongst the [not so] little darlings, with most speaking Arabic/middle eastern langauge.

I’m dubious of the fact that your saying that these kids are all speaking Arabic yet they come from a catholic school… but that aside… what’s wrong with people speaking Arabic?

I think it can only be Benton unless it was under an amended timetable. There's definitely nothing booked to terminate at Shiremoor, not sure if there's any Monkseaton terminators late at night or not.

Nope, none.

There's a much better solution which is to give the kids something to do that isn't disruptive. They end up feral because the parents don't want them in the house and there's nothing for them to do now that all the Youth Clubs have gone and any other organised social activities for teenagers are virtually nil. It wasn't remotely this bad on Metro before the youth clubs closed, it was when that happened that this all kicked off.

This as it turns out is a bit of a myth… I am part of a youth organisation as a leader. My local area was having a lot of youth disorder a few years ago and the Local Facebook groups always used to blame it on the lack of youth clubs. So one woman from another local club decided to make a list of all the local free to join clubs in our little Northumberland town and there was at least 30 and they all were in desperate need of recruiting youngsters to join. She ended up creating a youth network and it’s been pretty successful. The problem isn't lack of things for kids to do, it’s that they aren't aware of the options… well, that and bad parenting, and a lack of proper consequences.

Anti social behavior does cause delays but I wouldn't believe Nexus every time they blame that for disruption. The trains are falling apart, they're by far the biggest cause of delays even if Nexus won't publicly admit it.

Often it’s due to something like a drunk, passed out passenger on a train, meaning an ambulance is called which delays the service, this is sometimes reported as an “Ill passenger requiring and ambulance” but sometimes it’s reported as “antisocial behaviour“.

 

[kez19]

In terms of security/staffing wouldn’t South Shields have security? The newly built interchange would/should I would have thought?

Also Sunderland (interchange)?

When I have used Metro on visits I haven’t seen much security at stations such as Pallion and as such Kingston Park (may have seen Metro cleaning staff but not much as security be local police or Nexus).

 

[bramling]

In terms of security/staffing wouldn’t South Shields have security? The newly built interchange would/should I would have thought?

Also Sunderland (interchange)?

When I have used Metro on visits I haven’t seen much security at stations such as Pallion and as such Kingston Park (may have seen Metro cleaning staff but not much as security be local police or Nexus).

There are certainly staff to be found, indeed there were staff out and about the system on Saturday. But it’s all very inconsistent. For example when I passed through South Shields on Saturday afternoon there was no staff presence at all and the gates were open. Yet earlier in the week the gateline was consistently operational with several staff present. I assume on Saturday many staff were directed towards the Sunderland match. On Friday evening there was a significant staff presence at Cullercoats, can only assume this has been a trouble spot.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2023 ==

It's a while since I used T&W Metro, but either things have got much worse in the last few years, or there is a big difference according to the time of day (I've only ever used it in daylight hours). From the accounts here the ASB seems much worse than on Merseyrail for example, despite the networks serving similar demographics.

Comparisons with London are misleading. The fact that driving a car is virtually impossible in much of the capital means that a very wide cross section of the population uses public transport, especially the Tube. Hence much of the time it is self-policing. In most other UK cities people with cars more often use them if they can, so buses (where they exist after 19.00) and metros are less well patronised so more threatening.

One big difference with London, especially TFL, that the stations are gated. In the case of T&W even if it were decided to gate and staff every station, virtually every station would need a significant redesign. And I just can’t see a situation where it would ever be satisfactory to have a lone member of staff working at somewhere like Meadow Well or Byker.

 

[DanNCL]

Absolutely, however it was believable yesterday with the number of incidents we witnessed. Their was an inevitability that something fairly serious would happen at some point. It wasn’t great, and as I said I’m familiar with what’s (sadly) “normal”.

'Something fairly serious' has happened a few times unfortunately. Once witnessed it myself on a rush hour service, someone was stabbed, blood everywhere in the front carriage, the train obviously had to be taken out of service. In this case the perpetrators eventually were charged with GBH and drugs offences. Although such incidents thankfully aren't commonplace, and when they do happen it's people known to each other, the travelling public aren't targeted.

Reference to displays on platforms mostly refers to the last trains which terminate at Manors or Monument Platform 3. The Monument one is advertised as "Monument" (even at stations before Monument P2 IIRC) making it very confusing.

That was what I was getting at. Advertising to St James isn't really as a problem as people know the train goes via the coast first, but advertising to Manors and especially Monument P3 is a problem. IMO such services shouldn't be advertised with their terminating location until they reach Longbenton. Previously when anything going beyond Monkseaton from Monument P2 was advertised as going to "The Coast" it worked much better.

Only thing I can guess is Nexus have interpreted Metro as not a railway and that their stations are not railway stations therefore the 2009 regulations don’t apply. It would explain why Central has staff.

Otherwise it’s pretty clear:

10 (2) The periods of duty of members of staff must be so arranged as to secure that not less than two of them are present on duty in the premises at all times when members of the public have access to the premises.

That's my guess too, although I'd love to know what Nexus think Metro is if it isn't a railway, as it's definitely not a tram. And Nexus are more than happy to interpret Metro as a railway when it suits them to do so!

I’m dubious of the fact that your saying that these kids are all speaking Arabic yet they come from a catholic school… but that aside… what’s wrong with people speaking Arabic?

In all fairness Geordie can sound like a completely different language if you aren't local! But absolutely no way were these kids speaking Arabic if they came from St Mary's. And as you said, what's wrong with people speaking Arabic?

This as it turns out is a bit of a myth… I am part of a youth organisation as a leader. My local area was having a lot of youth disorder a few years ago and the Local Facebook groups always used to blame it on the lack of youth clubs. So one woman from another local club decided to make a list of all the local free to join clubs in our little Northumberland town and there was at least 30 and they all were in desperate need of recruiting youngsters to join. She ended up creating a youth network and it’s been pretty successful. The problem isn't lack of things for kids to do, it’s that they aren't aware of the options… well, that and bad parenting, and a lack of proper consequences.

I used to do similar work too but in Newcastle. There was a shortage of things to do there, there's hardly anything. Or if there is anything it's so poorly advertised that even those of us who went out of our way to look for such activities weren't aware of them.
Bad parenting is a massive problem too, all over the region. And I think it's only getting worse.

Also Sunderland (interchange)?

I didn't mention Sunderland as Northern provide the staff there, but yes that's required to be staffed whenever it's open too.

When I have used Metro on visits I haven’t seen much security at stations such as Pallion and as such Kingston Park (may have seen Metro cleaning staff but not much as security be local police or Nexus).

Security on Metro is roaming security. To take the specific examples of Pallion and Kingston Park, both are only covered by the roaming patrols and are otherwise completely unstaffed, and indeed neither station has any staff facilities.

On Friday evening there was a significant staff presence at Cullercoats, can only assume this has been a trouble spot.

There's been a significant presence on that part of the network at night for a few weeks, part of an ongoing Northumbria Police co-operation which is most likely a political stunt by the incumbent Police & Crime Commissioner who is trying to position herself as the candidate for North East Metro Mayor.

One big difference with London, especially TFL, that the stations are gated. In the case of T&W even if it were decided to gate and staff every station, virtually every station would need a significant redesign. And I just can’t see a situation where it would ever be satisfactory to have a lone member of staff working at somewhere like Meadow Well or Byker.

This. Almost every station that can be gated without significant reconstruction already is gated. Regent Centre and Four Lane Ends are probably the only currently ungated stations that could be gated without any significant changes to the station. The typical Metro halt simply isn't big enough to take gates, and the ex BR stations all have their own limitations that would make gating them difficult. There's also little justification to gating, say, Callerton Parkway no matter how easy it were as the need for gates there is so low.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a while since I used T&W Metro, but either things have got much worse in the last few years, or there is a big difference according to the time of day (I've only ever used it in daylight hours). From the accounts here the ASB seems much worse than on Merseyrail for example, despite the networks serving similar demographics.

It's worth noting that the kind of ASB you used to get on Merseyrail before the "rent-a-thugs" were introduced was much lower level - stuff like smoking (tobacco/dope), chucking seat covers out of the windows (hence the restrictors now fitted) and the likes, but very, very rarely anything truly threatening. But then Merseyrail is and long has been a fairly heavily staffed system, even back when guards just stayed in the rear cab they were another presence, and the Liverpool City Centre stations are and always* were gated for the full period of service, and all stations staffed though not all gated, thus there's less chance for it to get in.

It seems a bit more comparable with the totally open Metrolink system - as such it does strike me that just getting the gatelines staffed, even with minimum wage security who couldn't really do a lot, would help.

* Except for a brief and very unsuccessful period during MTL's early tenure, which apparently made fare dodging go through the roof.

 

[Segedunum]

It seems a bit more comparable with the totally open Metrolink system - as such it does strike me that just getting the gatelines staffed, even with minimum wage security who couldn't really do a lot, would help.

I mean they did hire third-party security for the purpose of roving on trains, which I gather has at least helped a *little*.

You'll always need properly revenue-trained staff on gates (which I can vouch is most staff, though there is the odd bad apple) but safety in numbers is the main thing. Two staff on a gateline late at night can be pretty vulnerable. Two backed up by another two security staff, less so.

As I found, numbers is the main thing. A revenue block with 6+ staff will probably have most complying. Even better with local police. 2 staff alone at night, less so.

Re: more stations being gated, indeed Four Lane Ends and Regent Centre would be the best candidates. They have the right layout and appropriate break facilities. Bizarrely West Monkseaton would also be suitable if the break "facility" there was refurbished (there is one but it's very much an outdated cupboard). South Hylton is similar, but would you really gate South Hylton?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'll always need properly revenue-trained staff on gates (which I can vouch is most staff, though there is the odd bad apple) but safety in numbers is the main thing.

Actually, this isn't true.

Gatelines are a classic example of a provision that stops opportunistic crime. That is, the majority of fare dodgers are "pay when challenged", and most kids etc hanging around and engaging in ASB are similarly opportunists, hanging around somewhere because they can easily access it.

Thus, even if the person on the gateline can do nothing but ask you to buy a ticket if you don't have one, and can't do anything if you don't, that presence is a significant deterrent (see also Merseyrail booking office staff who provide an element of that deterrent despite doing nothing at all about fare dodging).

It seemed to work for WMT pre-COVID, though it wasn't reinstated post-COVID for some reason I know not.

 

[Segedunum]

Actually, this isn't true.

Gatelines are a classic example of a provision that stops opportunistic crime. That is, the majority of fare dodgers are "pay when challenged", and most kids etc hanging around and engaging in ASB are similarly opportunists, hanging around somewhere because they can easily access it.

Thus, even if the person on the gateline can do nothing but ask you to buy a ticket if you don't have one, and can't do anything if you don't, that presence is a significant deterrent (see also Merseyrail booking office staff who provide an element of that deterrent despite doing nothing at all about fare dodging).

It seemed to work for WMT pre-COVID, though it wasn't reinstated post-COVID for some reason I know not.

I will concede that this, for passengers coming in, is certainly true. Running a gateline where its not expected will at least put money in the TVMs. Or they'll be put through the inconvenience of walking to another station. Admittedly if they choose they latter, you're just moving the problem.

Coming out, most will simply kick off and/or do a runner. That's the tricky bit!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I will concede that this, for passengers coming in, is certainly true. Running a gateline where its not expected will at least put money in the TVMs. Or they'll be put through the inconvenience of walking to another station. Admittedly if they choose they latter, you're just moving the problem.

Coming out, most will simply kick off and/or do a runner. That's the tricky bit!

Very true. However what it does also do is provide a deterrent for antisocial behaviour and begging both on the station and on trains.

It may of course be that whatever passes for a scally/ned/chav in the Toon is less deferential to authority than a typical Merseyside scally (who, and it's been discussed here before, does tend to have a bit of a respect for authority turning up, even if it just means they run off), but if they're in any way similar in nature the same approach could well work.

(At Bletchley it was really just about fares; there isn't really any ASB problem there bar occasional bicycle thefts, despite the town containing its fair share of rough estates etc)

 

[Snex]

Been reading this but couldn't they pretty much solve this by having ticket inspectors on the trains, similar to the Edinburgh and Sheffield Trams, at least at the worst times ie. beyond 2pm.

The amount of lost revenue that would be recovered would no doubt pretty much pay for them anyway and it would solve most the crime issues that exist.

 

[Volvictof]

It may of course be that whatever passes for a scally/ned/chav in the Toon is less deferential to authority than a typical Merseyside scally (who, and it's been discussed here before, does tend to have a bit of a respect for authority turning up, even if it just means they run off), but if they're in any way similar in nature the same approach could well work.

Im surprise to hear that considering Liverpools general distain for the police which is unmatched I think anywhere else in the country.

But no, unfortunately the typical Charva here isn’t afraid of authority and infact they often can be found purposely causing issues just so the security staff/police can show up and they can assault/abuse them.

The amount of lost revenue that would be recovered would no doubt pretty much pay for them anyway and it would solve most the crime issues that exist.

People often say this but when you do the math it doesn’t really add up. Considering the amount of staff that would be required, their hourly and the other costs of having them (holiday pay, pension, added work for admin staff etc), you’d need a big positive rise in revenue to pay for it, and even if this could be achieved you’d have to get it funded before it made its money back and that would be a hard sell.

 

[bramling]

It's worth noting that the kind of ASB you used to get on Merseyrail before the "rent-a-thugs" were introduced was much lower level - stuff like smoking (tobacco/dope), chucking seat covers out of the windows (hence the restrictors now fitted) and the likes, but very, very rarely anything truly threatening. But then Merseyrail is and long has been a fairly heavily staffed system, even back when guards just stayed in the rear cab they were another presence, and the Liverpool City Centre stations are and always* were gated for the full period of service, and all stations staffed though not all gated, thus there's less chance for it to get in.

It seems a bit more comparable with the totally open Metrolink system - as such it does strike me that just getting the gatelines staffed, even with minimum wage security who couldn't really do a lot, would help.

* Except for a brief and very unsuccessful period during MTL's early tenure, which apparently made fare dodging go through the roof.

I’m not sure staffing the existing gatelines would help that much. I find just as much trouble, if not more, comes from people making local journeys which don’t include a major station. The system doesn’t seem to be like some others where much of the business involves people travelling to/from a major station.

I suppose it might be worth going for an increase in the number of gatelines, albeit with the significant cost of having to significantly rebuilt stations. But if we take something like Newcastle to South Shields currently the only gated intermediate stations (IIRC) are Gateshead, Heworth and Chichester. If one were to, as a ballpark, double this then one might look at doing probably Jarrow, Pelaw and Gateshead Stadium, but this still leaves a lot of potential journeys which wouldn’t involve a gateline.

I’m surprised they haven’t done the old trick of playing classical music at some of the more well-known teenager hangouts, places like Regent Centre and Pelaw.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2023 ==

Im surprise to hear that considering Liverpools general distain for the police which is unmatched I think anywhere else in the country.

But no, unfortunately the typical Charva here isn’t afraid of authority and infact they often can be found purposely causing issues just so the security staff/police can show up and they can assault/abuse them.


People often say this but when you do the math it doesn’t really add up. Considering the amount of staff that would be required, their hourly and the other costs of having them (holiday pay, pension, added work for admin staff etc), you’d need a big positive rise in revenue to pay for it, and even if this could be achieved you’d have to get it funded before it made its money back and that would be a hard sell.

I’ve always wondered how much fare evasion there actually is on the Metro. From what I’ve seen most people *do* stop at the ticket machines when they enter a station, and on the occasions when revenue have stormed a train at stations I’ve yet to see them catch anyone - indeed a sharp contrast to my local GTR service where, now revenue are at last back following a long pause after Covid, it’s pretty much guaranteed they will get someone almost immediately.

Some of the Metro antisocial behaviour doesn’t even involve people travelling, given the way some stations serve as hangouts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m not sure staffing the existing gatelines would help that much. I find just as much trouble, if not more, comes from people making local journeys which don’t include a major station. The system doesn’t seem to be like some others where much of the business involves people travelling to/from a major station.

Interesting, I guess that would also differentiate it from Merseyrail which does have significant intermediate travel but it's still the case that the vast majority of journeys are to/from one of the four central Liverpool stations or secondarily Southport or Chester, all of which are gated, which means you get people in one direction. The south WCML is similar - almost all journeys involve Euston, as is the case with most London suburban TOCs. I'm actually quite surprised that that is the case for Newcastle as you'd think it would be similar to Merseyside in usage (with Sunderland a proxy for e.g. Southport in travel terms even if not a beach resort!) but you learn something new every day

I’m surprised they haven’t done the old trick of playing classical music at some of the more well-known teenager hangouts, places like Regent Centre and Pelaw.

That did occur to me. Or if you want to be nasty there's the "Mosquito" sound, though I could hear that well into my 30s and it's quite unpleasant unlike a bit of Bach.

 

[Snex]

People often say this but when you do the math it doesn’t really add up. Considering the amount of staff that would be required, their hourly and the other costs of having them (holiday pay, pension, added work for admin staff etc), you’d need a big positive rise in revenue to pay for it, and even if this could be achieved you’d have to get it funded before it made its money back and that would be a hard sell.

I'd actually be interested how much it would cost as I can't imagine it being that high assuming you'd redeploy the staff doing the barriers at places like North Shields etc which wouldn't really be needed plus the roaming staff. It'd also be interesting how many people are simply avoiding the system currently as they feel unsafe.

Arguably for the cost of public safety it would be worth it if they can get the funding of course.

Interesting, I guess that would also differentiate it from Merseyrail which does have significant intermediate travel but it's still the case that the vast majority of journeys are to/from one of the four central Liverpool stations or secondarily Southport or Chester, all of which are gated, which means you get people in one direction. The south WCML is similar - almost all journeys involve Euston, as is the case with most London suburban TOCs. I'm actually quite surprised that that is the case for Newcastle as you'd think it would be similar to Merseyside in usage (with Sunderland a proxy for e.g. Southport in travel terms even if not a beach resort!) but you learn something new every day

Surely the guards would be the biggest difference? There's arguably only Metrolink, like you said earlier, which it can be compared to which also has problems. The biggest problem is generally rogue kids not really going anywhere. They get on somewhere like Palmersville and travel and back and forward causing problems. Some will no doubt actually have valid tickets for £1.70, which is nothing really, and it's somewhere to keep warm. It's better than sitting on a park bench for example.

We used to do it pretty much but not cause trouble like some do and did then aswell. As long as you behave when the ticket inspectors got on board you could get away with anything. Ticket barriers won't prevent that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely the guards would be the biggest difference? There's arguably only Metrolink, like you said earlier, which it can be compared to which also has problems. The biggest problem is generally rogue kids not really going anywhere. They get on somewhere like Palmersville and travel and back and forward causing problems. Some will no doubt actually have valid tickets for £1.70, which is nothing really, and it's somewhere to keep warm. It's better than sitting on a park bench for example.

It was the case until recently-ish that the Merseytravel Saveaway child version was only valid when accompanied by an adult, presumably to reduce this issue, though any other tickets e.g. point to point and seasons were valid for unaccompanied children (and lots of children did and do use the system unaccompanied, some paying, some not), and a child could I think use an adult Saveaway unaccompanied (at least I'm fairly sure I did, though I looked over 18 from about 14 and found I had to prove I was a child rather more often than I've ever had to prove I was an adult). The newish Daysaver however has no such stipulation, so it'd be interesting to know if there has been any kind of increase in the numbers just riding around for fun and whether they cause issues when they do.

 

[Snex]

It was the case until recently-ish that the Merseytravel Saveaway child version was only valid when accompanied by an adult, presumably to reduce this issue, though any other tickets e.g. point to point and seasons were valid for unaccompanied children (and lots of children did and do use the system unaccompanied, some paying, some not), and a child could I think use an adult Saveaway unaccompanied (at least I'm fairly sure I did, though I looked over 18 from about 14 and found I had to prove I was a child rather more often than I've ever had to prove I was an adult). The newish Daysaver however has no such stipulation, so it'd be interesting to know if there has been any kind of increase in the numbers just riding around for fun and whether they cause issues when they do.

That's an interesting idea and kind of makes sense but seems a bit punishing for those who actually needed to use the trains down there.

Mind I must say, It'd be interesting to see which areas of the Metro are the worst for more serious anti social as I'd be very surprised if it's the Coast. Ignoring the kids who generally ignore adults, the Meadowell and Tyne Dock / Jarrow areas are the only places I'd really feel on edge, the former mainly because I've witnessed a brawl in the middle of day. Gateshead Stadium always has (or had at least) an issue with beggers aswell which are always intimidating.

Mind I'd feel safe anywhere on the Metro over Haymarket Bus Station (the other option), at night, which is generally an unpleasant place which is also managed by Nexus especially after M&S closes.

 

[bramling]

It was the case until recently-ish that the Merseytravel Saveaway child version was only valid when accompanied by an adult, presumably to reduce this issue, though any other tickets e.g. point to point and seasons were valid for unaccompanied children (and lots of children did and do use the system unaccompanied, some paying, some not), and a child could I think use an adult Saveaway unaccompanied (at least I'm fairly sure I did, though I looked over 18 from about 14 and found I had to prove I was a child rather more often than I've ever had to prove I was an adult). The newish Daysaver however has no such stipulation, so it'd be interesting to know if there has been any kind of increase in the numbers just riding around for fun and whether they cause issues when they do.

Not sure about Metrolink, but I’ve never really got a feeling that people hang around on Merseyrail - which presumably makes it much easier for the rent-a-thugs to enforce stuff, as the threat of being kicked off is a viable deterrent. On the T&W Metro the threat of kicking people out means little.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2023 ==

That's an interesting idea and kind of makes sense but seems a bit punishing for those who actually needed to use the trains down there.

Mind I must say, It'd be interesting to see which areas of the Metro are the worst for more serious anti social as I'd be very surprised if it's the Coast. Ignoring the kids who generally ignore adults, the Meadowell and Tyne Dock / Jarrow areas are the only places I'd really feel on edge, the former mainly because I've witnessed a brawl in the middle of day. Gateshead Stadium always has (or had at least) an issue with beggers aswell which are always intimidating.

Mind I'd feel safe anywhere on the Metro over Haymarket Bus Station (the other option), at night, which is generally an unpleasant place which is also managed by Nexus especially after M&S closes.

The coast is fine in itself, indeed Tynemouth is a very smart place, Whitley Bay isn’t so smart these days but still isn’t too bad. However this section imports problems from elsewhere. Tynemouth has an excellent beach which is always going to be a draw.

In essence it’s easier to list which parts of the system *don’t* have issues. That’s essentially Central to South Gosforth, South Gosforth to North Shields via Benton, and the far end of the Airport branch.

 

[Segedunum]

I was having a catch-up with some former colleagues today who advise that on paper, all stations (including North Shields, South Shields & Chichester) should have staff on late shift. The caveat is that there must be 3+ on after 7pm.

As for fare evasion percentages - most of it goes on between unstaffed stations. It'd be highly unusual to pull more than half a dozen people off during train flush at say, Heworth, even late at night. That drops during the day.

Most won't even go near staff either. Eg. Haymarket's wide gate is separated from the main array so most will just force or tailgate through that and usually go unnoticed or be too far away for anyone to intervene. Staff will often set it to closed or exit only so at least nobody will come in without a ticket.

And finally - "problem" sections. Longbenton to West Monkseaton can be just as bad as other parts on the wrong day. Staff have been set upon at Shiremoor before and Four Lane Ends gets used as a playground on occasion.

 

[Paul_10]

Not sure about Metrolink, but I’ve never really got a feeling that people hang around on Merseyrail - which presumably makes it much easier for the rent-a-thugs to enforce stuff, as the threat of being kicked off is a viable deterrent. On the T&W Metro the threat of kicking people out means little.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2023 ==



The coast is fine in itself, indeed Tynemouth is a very smart place, Whitley Bay isn’t so smart these days but still isn’t too bad. However this section imports problems from elsewhere. Tynemouth has an excellent beach which is always going to be a draw.

In essence it’s easier to list which parts of the system *don’t* have issues. That’s essentially Central to South Gosforth, South Gosforth to North Shields via Benton, and the far end of the Airport branch.

I'm not sure I agree with the South Gosforth to North Shields bit especially between Palmersville and Shiremoor where windows being kicked out has been an issue in the last few years and Shiremoor is a known station to have it's issues.

I always think the general rule is the Pelaw to South Gosforth section is the "safest" as that where the service is most frequent and where most passengers are. Some individual stations like Pelaw and Gateshead stadium are no doubt intimating especially the former but I do think the ASB on the metro has always been an issue and always will be. It's easier to report issues these days via social media than it used to be so it may give the impression things are worse than they actually are.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most won't even go near staff either. Eg. Haymarket's wide gate is separated from the main array so most will just force or tailgate through that and usually go unnoticed or be too far away for anyone to intervene. Staff will often set it to closed or exit only so at least nobody will come in without a ticket.

I remain unconvinced that other than in specific locations (i.e. places like Gatwick Airport where basically everyone has big bags) those wide gates have been a worthwhile addition. They're indeed really easy to tailgate through, and make it harder to get assistance as staff are no longer stood in one obvious place visible from anywhere on the gateline (i.e. at one end next to the manual gate).

 

[Segedunum]

I remain unconvinced that other than in specific locations (i.e. places like Gatwick Airport where basically everyone has big bags) those wide gates have been a worthwhile addition. They're indeed really easy to tailgate through, and make it harder to get assistance as staff are no longer stood in one obvious place visible from anywhere on the gateline (i.e. at one end next to the manual gate).

Yes, in most instances I used to just open the manual code-operated metal gate. Saves genuine passengers from needing to walk all the way past the main array, too.

The one saving grace was that problematic individuals at least knew where to go, so would try and sneak out rather than causing a kick-off. If you knew who they were, you could report it. Though that didn't stop someone deciding to jump on top of the gates once (causing them to literally wobble - they ain't sturdy) and step over. Quite a performance, shall we say.

 

[bramling]

I remain unconvinced that other than in specific locations (i.e. places like Gatwick Airport where basically everyone has big bags) those wide gates have been a worthwhile addition. They're indeed really easy to tailgate through, and make it harder to get assistance as staff are no longer stood in one obvious place visible from anywhere on the gateline (i.e. at one end next to the manual gate).

They are useful if you have a bike. On LU it used to be a massive headache having to be let through the manual gate. You could be waiting ages if the staff were dealing with someone/something else, or simply not paying attention. Not sure that’s really acceptable for someone in possession of a perfectly valid ticket to be routinely delayed / inconvenienced in this way.

I do think the wide gates should be made more robust though.

Someone else posted that TW Metro‘a gates are flimsy, and I’d agree with that. They’re utter rubbish, and goodness knows why they have chosen this design.

 

[DanNCL]

I’ve always wondered how much fare evasion there actually is on the Metro. From what I’ve seen most people *do* stop at the ticket machines when they enter a station, and on the occasions when revenue have stormed a train at stations I’ve yet to see them catch anyone - indeed a sharp contrast to my local GTR service where, now revenue are at last back following a long pause after Covid, it’s pretty much guaranteed they will get someone almost immediately.

As for fare evasion percentages - most of it goes on between unstaffed stations. It'd be highly unusual to pull more than half a dozen people off during train flush at say, Heworth, even late at night. That drops during the day.

Entirely depends where on the network and also how obvious and predictable the revenue presence is.
Using the Heworth example, I'm not the slightest bit surprised that late night checks get them very little. I used to travel through there every evening around 9pm and RPIs boarded the train the same day of the week every week. The other regulars had clearly noticed the pattern too as on the usual day of the RPI flush almost everyone usually had tickets, yet the one time they did the RPI flush on a different day of the week to the norm they took off a much greater proportion of those on the train for not having a ticket.
I have no idea if that still happens now or if they've finally changed their tactics, but certainly being in the same place at the same time every week isn't a good way to catch fare evaders nor is it a good way to deter anti social behaviour.
On another occasion a group of plain clothes RPIs boarded a fairly busy train at Hebburn, during the day at a weekend. That was a very good catch for the revenue team, they took a lot of passengers off the train at Jarrow!

Someone else posted that TW Metro‘a gates are flimsy, and I’d agree with that. They’re utter rubbish, and goodness knows why they have chosen this design.

My understanding is the Metro gates were bulk purchased at the same time as the TVMs were replaced, the deal was for Scheidt & Bachmann to provide TVMs for all 60 stations, gates for 13 stations and standalone validators for all the others. No doubt it was cheaper to place a single order for the lot rather than getting the TVMs and standalone validators from Scheidt & Bachmann whilst placing a separate order for gates with Cubic.

 

[kez19]

Been reading this but couldn't they pretty much solve this by having ticket inspectors on the trains, similar to the Edinburgh and Sheffield Trams, at least at the worst times ie. beyond 2pm.

The amount of lost revenue that would be recovered would no doubt pretty much pay for them anyway and it would solve most the crime issues that exist.

I remember that time I got the inspectors on (I’m sure it was between 2-3pm), I’m sure there has been at one point they held it up for inspection and then the other they ran with the train (could be wrong!)

 

[hacman]

I remain unconvinced that other than in specific locations (i.e. places like Gatwick Airport where basically everyone has big bags) those wide gates have been a worthwhile addition. They're indeed really easy to tailgate through, and make it harder to get assistance as staff are no longer stood in one obvious place visible from anywhere on the gateline (i.e. at one end next to the manual gate).

The wide gates are needed for many, including those with walking aids, wheelchairs or those traveling with young children in a stroller. All of the Tyne and Wear Metro stations, as well as many on the national network don't use a manual gate, so the wide gate is where people with such requirements will always go.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The wide gates are needed for many, including those with walking aids, wheelchairs or those traveling with young children in a stroller. All of the Tyne and Wear Metro stations, as well as many on the national network don't use a manual gate, so the wide gate is where people with such requirements will always go.

Other than on gatelines that are newly installed, wide gates replaced manual gates, and to me that was a big downgrade both in terms of "permeability" and in terms of user experience.