T Keys

[Old Timer]

In the old BR days, paytrain DMUs had lockable cabinets into which money and the ticket machine was secured when not in use.

Driving cabs were / are not designed for revenue protection purposes and thus are not as secure as they would need to be if the storage of cash and ticket machines was a consideration.

 

[EM2]

Just thinking that the person discussed in the original post could be a fitter? If there's a defect while the train is running, he might be going out with it to the next station to see if he can see/hear what it is.
We have fitters based at our stations and they are very difficult to recognise as staff, as their uniform is very nondescript.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I didn't know that OT, you learn something new everyday!

Cabs certianly are not secure, just use a screwdriver to get in.

 

[Old Timer]

Security in BR days was not the issue it is now, as it was rare for locomotives or units to be left in remote locations, even if shut down.

Mostly they were in TMDs, Carriage Sidings or stations where there was a staff presence at all times.

The security aspect was maintained through the need for a master key, and the fact that when shut down and stabled properly, the battery master switch should be opened.

Taking into service procedures are not known generally and therefore reduce considerably the chance that someone can start up a loco/unit, although it has not been unknown for locomotives to have been taken for joyrides by those who had a degree of knowledge or found a unit stabled but not correctly taken out of service.

All of this said of course it was common to be able to walk around Toton on a Saturday afternoon in the 60s and 70s and find maybe 40 / 50 locomotives sat there idling away unattended and the whole depot seemingly deserted !

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Sounds nice back in those days!

Certianly I have the knowledge (and keys) of walking into a cab, and driving, but I wouldn't dare, and it's not something I'm going to broadcast to everyone. It is hard to say how security could be increased now, more keys?

 

[Old Timer]

Sounds nice back in those days!

They certainly were good days back then.

Society was not so unpleasant as it has become in recent times, and there was more variety as well.

And of course the pernicious HASAWA was not applied as it is now.

There was much more judgement exercised and one VERY rarely saw a Manager from Friday to Monday.

In BR the supervisors were pretty much left alone to get on with things under the weather eye of the Manager, who knew what went on and what the boundaries were.

Many young railway lads and others aspiring towards becoming signalmen learnt their signalling skills by spending weekends and summer evenings in signal boxes pulling the levers and working the bells.

All known about and blind eyes turned throughout the whole hierarchy.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Probably the best way to get people into the railway industry. I've had turns in mech. signal boxes - so much fun pulling levers, working token machines, and now signalling is a job I am looking at (careers person didn't know what it was!).

When I contacted NR for work experience, I was told that they don't do it because not enough people come back to get jobs, which I thought was the point of running it. Aah, I wish it was still BR!


Anyway - back to T-Keys!

 

[AlexS]

BR01/21 keys also easily available, I bought a spare as it was there for £1 at a stall once, I've got through 4 I think, they're not as sturdy as they could be.

When you get on to more restricted keys such as S&T keys however you very rarely ever see them.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

I carry a T-key, a BR1 key, BR16 key and a master key when i'm in work, The 16 key sees the most use tbh, BR1 coming close second, the t-key seeing next to no use in all honesty - theres only really one thing on my station secured with it. Wouldn't really bother carrying them around outside of work lol too heavy

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Anyone wanna sell me one? To join my recently acquired dispatch baton?

 

[ukrob]

Anyone wanna sell me one? To join my recently acquired dispatch baton?

Why do you have/want either? How are you ever going to use either as a member of the public?

Serious question, not a dig at you.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Why do you have/want either? How are you ever going to use either as a member of the public?

Serious question, not a dig at you.

I don't know...why do people collect numbers of trains? Just something interesting I guess.
Ideally I'd like a Chris Evans style 42 car garage of 42 white ferraris and a piano which plays itself.
Until I have the money, random railway crap will have to do

 

[railwayperson]

I have a T-Key for work at a heritage railway, it comes in extremely handy for locking spare guards vans attached to a train out of use, stopping the public getting in and messing with the brakes e.t.c

But I wouldn't take it on the mainline for a number of reasons.

 

[AlexS]

Why do you have/want either? How are you ever going to use either as a member of the public?

Serious question, not a dig at you.

People do collect railway kit. It doesn't necessarily mean they're going to end up in use, just quite possibly in some gricers loft

Just drop onto Ebay and see the amount of stuff on sale under the Railwayana section that's of very little practical use to most buyers but still sells like hotcakes. Equipment is included in that.

Mine is usually in my bag when I'm going to and from my railway business and doesn't cause a problem. Primarily as storage space actually at the railway is at a premium and my cupboard is already full of junk like coats and hi vis trousers.

Todays mundane items are tomorrows museum pieces and all that!

 

[nedchester]

Things like that can be found on Ebay from time to time and only get withdrawn if someone reports it, even then it might take a couple of days.

There was a bloke on here a couple of months back selling all manner of things including expired detotnators:roll: took a couple of days for the item listing to be withdrawn even after several reports to ebay.

Yep. I seen them for sale on ebay along with all sorts of things like bardic lamps as well. Just have a look in the railwayana section of ebay and you'll find all sorts of stuff some of which has been 'acquired'!

 

[jay jay]

Yep. I seen them for sale on ebay along with all sorts of things like bardic lamps as well. Just have a look in the railwayana section of ebay and you'll find all sorts of stuff some of which has been 'acquired'!

Yes, "acquired" indeed. It doesnt help when it is for sale at the likes of gala days etc. Im not arguing that people like to collect such things, but I really dont see the need?

The harsh reality of this is that it is a security risk and as a conductor I have seen young "enthusiasts" opening cupboards on trains with acquired t-keys before - in addition I have seen people on stations with bardic lamps which is a problem, particularly if they get in the wrong hands.

It is a shame as the minority do spoil it for the majority but these essential safety and security items should not be available "willy nilly" in my opinion.

Perhaps rail staff should have the authority to confiscate the items and report these people if they are brought onto the mainline by unauthorised persons?

 

[AlexS]

A bardic lamp is a standard hand signalling torch. Over the years they've been used by the fire brigade and the military among others. They're not exclusively railway kit. You can't do someone for bringing a torch on the railway, although if they were using it to maliciously signal to a train I believe it would be a different matter legally.

As for T keys, you don't need a t key to open any lock on the train. It's a square bit of metal. If anything, TOCs and ROSCOs should be taking a more proactive approach and fitting something more secure than a little hole to keep things safe - as some companies have done!

T keys have been around for 200 years in various forms and the idea of them being exclusive railway items is again laughable.

BR01 keys and the like have again been around for 50 years. They're not secure and they should not be used to secure something safety critical against tampering. There must have been millions of them cut over the years.

We do use S&T keys such as the 221 on the GCR - and they're issue only. Only the senior nominated S&T managers can issue them to anybody and they definately don't get handed out willy nilly. I've never seen one for sale anywhere either as far as I know.

And on the occasions I've travelled around on the network in my uniform with my kit on me, I've never had any trouble from any rail staff, in fact many of the closet cranks usually see it as an invitation to come and have a chat about their interest. If required I've got my grade ticket and photo ID issued by a railway that's HMRI approved to show that I need what I have to carry out my duties. And that does include bardic lamps, a T key, a BR01 key and various other things.

 

[jay jay]

A bardic lamp is a standard hand signalling torch. Over the years they've been used by the fire brigade and the military among others. They're not exclusively railway kit. You can't do someone for bringing a torch on the railway, although if they were using it to maliciously signal to a train I believe it would be a different matter legally.

As for T keys, you don't need a t key to open any lock on the train. It's a square bit of metal. If anything, TOCs and ROSCOs should be taking a more proactive approach and fitting something more secure than a little hole to keep things safe - as some companies have done!

T keys have been around for 200 years in various forms and the idea of them being exclusive railway items is again laughable.

BR01 keys and the like have again been around for 50 years. They're not secure and they should not be used to secure something safety critical against tampering. There must have been millions of them cut over the years.

We do use S&T keys such as the 221 on the GCR - and they're issue only. Only the senior nominated S&T managers can issue them to anybody and they definately don't get handed out willy nilly. I've never seen one for sale anywhere either as far as I know.

And on the occasions I've travelled around on the network in my uniform with my kit on me, I've never had any trouble from any rail staff, in fact many of the closet cranks usually see it as an invitation to come and have a chat about their interest. If required I've got my grade ticket and photo ID issued by a railway that's HMRI approved to show that I need what I have to carry out my duties. And that does include bardic lamps, a T key, a BR01 key and various other things.

Absolutely agree

 

[ChrisTheRef]

I really don't think having them is a security issue. The outdoor tap in my garden (as opposed to my indoor garden ) has a broken handle. So we have a t key thingy which we put inside and use it to turn. I could use that on the national network if I wished, anybody with basic metalwork tools could make something similar.
You'll never stop people having this kind of thing, and I agree with someone back on page 1 that swipe cards and such as the way forward if you're after proper security.

I'd love a proper one as a collectors item though

 

[The_Stig]

A lot of the cabinets in the EMU's have nasty voltages and any idiot stupid enough to open one up with an illegally aquired key deserves what they get, IMO of course.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

We may never stop people getting hold of keys, but we can slow it down.

If you don't need one for a railway duty, then you shouldn't have one.

 

[nedchester]

We may never stop people getting hold of keys, but we can slow it down.

If you don't need one for a railway duty, then you shouldn't have one.

People collect these things for collections (I've got one somewhere in the house). You can get all sorts of stuff, a lot of which I suspect has a 'history'.

See:

http://collectables.shop.ebay.co.uk...=1&_mdo=Collectables&_mspp=&_pcats=1444,417,1

To be honest if the railway was really concerned about security then it wouldn't use a key which is square.

 

[krus_aragon]

One of my granfather's adages: "a lock only stops an honest man".

 

[railwayperson]

Bardic lamps are good, especially if you run out of paraffin for the lamps, as you can put them on the lamp brackets as a tail lamp, problem solved.

I speak of course as a member of staff on a heritage railway

 

[HSTfan!!!]

and I agree with someone back on page 1 that swipe cards and such as the way forward if you're after proper security.

that'll go down well with the public when it's failure is the cause to delays

 

[jon0844]

No reason for a swipe/RFID card to fail. If in doubt, simply back it up with a PIN code option.

The code/accepted card list would be changeable over-the-air, most likely with a small embedded SIM on the train that allows the train to be in two-way data communication, almost certainly useful for other things too. Unless there's already some form of data communication on existing trains that can be used instead? I guess any train with onboard Internet is already sorted.

 

[Kneedown]

A bardic lamp is a standard hand signalling torch. Over the years they've been used by the fire brigade and the military among others. They're not exclusively railway kit.

Absolutely true........however.......

You can't do someone for bringing a torch on the railway, although if they were using it to maliciously signal to a train I believe it would be a different matter legally.

As you state yourself, a Bardic is a signalling torch for the use of railway and other authorities. If a civvie were to be caught with one on railway property then, irrespective of whether they were actually committing an offence or not, a Police Officer could have reasonable suspicion that an offence was about to be committed and arrest that person.

 

[AlexS]

It would depend on what they were doing with it I imagine!

I agree there's absolutely no reason for a random bod to be walking around with one in his hand on a station platform however.

Extremely useful and hardwearing bits of kit though and much recommended for things like the car boot if you break down, they generally don't let you down.

 

[Dennis]

Extremely useful and hardwearing bits of kit though and much recommended for things like the car boot if you break down, they generally don't let you down.

Yes, I've seen many broken men in lay-bys seeking solace in their Bardics, wondering if it's worth carrying on.

Oh - you mean when the car breaks down

 

[HSTfan!!!]

No reason for a swipe/RFID card to fail. If in doubt, simply back it up with a PIN code option.

The code/accepted card list would be changeable over-the-air, most likely with a small embedded SIM on the train that allows the train to be in two-way data communication, almost certainly useful for other things too. Unless there's already some form of data communication on existing trains that can be used instead? I guess any train with onboard Internet is already sorted.

this is the railway , it'd be done on the cheap