System One Yearly Railcard Letter

[Kanye West]

Hi,

I've read through a lot of these threads but nothing matches my scenario here:

I bought a System One Yearly Railcard for Greater Manchester back in Sept 2013 (£1086!) and have been using it all year. My usual journey is Gatley to Manchester Piccadilly and back every single working day. I decided to try travelling to and from Wilmslow to Manchester Piccadilly one day to see if it would save me time, without knowing Wilmslow fell outside of the System One Greater Manchester area. I bought a ticket from Wilmslow to Man Pic on the outward journey just to be sure, but began to think that it wasn't necessary because in my mind, obviously Wilmslow was classed as Manchester so I didn't get one for the return.

On the return journey, I was stopped at Wilmslow station as I was walking past the guards, holding my railcard up and was informed that it wasn't valid for this station. I apologised, explained I didn't know it was out of the boundary and offered to buy the ticket there and then as we were stood next to the ticket machine. He refused and said he would write me up a ticket.

Fast forward a month and I've just received one of these letters from Northern Rail about debt recovery & prosecutions and how I could go to court. As a university student going into his last year at uni, about to start looking for potential jobs, a court case/criminal record is really not suitable.

Is my situation fair enough to get just the penalty fare and no court case? Maybe even not a penalty for this? Having paid over £1000 for a railcard, you would think they would have some leniency for being a longstanding customer who, by the way, has had no previous charges etc.

Thanks

 

[Merseysider]

A couple of points:

Since you bought the S1 ticket, did you not once check the map it was valid on in the year you've had it?

Also, at Wilmslow, although you didn't actually get onboard a train at this point, it is a Regulation of Railways 1889 offence to attempt to travel without a valid ticket, with intent. "[an offence is committed upon] travelling/attempting to travel on a railway without having previously paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof..."

I'm not entirely convinced intent could be proven here.

Have you retained your single (why didn't you get a return if you were unsure)? And did you approach the staff asking if it was valid, or did you attempt to walk past them and flash your ticket at them?

Northern Rail do not operate a Penalty Fare scheme. Did you buy a ticket from Wilmslow to a station within the System One boundary (eg Stockport, Piccadilly, Man Airport) after your conversation with revenue protection, and if so, do you still have this ticket?

 

[Kanye West]

A couple of points:

Since you bought the S1 ticket, did you not once check the map it was valid on in the year you've had it?

Also, at Wilmslow, although you didn't actually get onboard a train at this point, it is a Regulation of Railways 1889 offence to attempt to travel without a valid ticket, with intent. "[an offence is committed upon] travelling/attempting to travel on a railway without having previously paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof..."

I'm not entirely convinced intent could be proven here.

Have you retained your single (why didn't you get a return if you were unsure)? And did you approach the staff asking if it was valid, or did you attempt to walk past them and flash your ticket at them?

Northern Rail do not operate a Penalty Fare scheme. Did you buy a ticket from Wilmslow to a station within the System One boundary (eg Stockport, Piccadilly, Man Airport) after your conversation with revenue protection, and if so, do you still have this ticket?

Can I just stress that it wasn't intentional at all and after the incident I travelled via Gatley (inside the boundary) to Manc Pic?

This happened 12th August so I had already disposed of the single I had gotten on the way, so I'm worried there's no way to prove this. I'm on a very tight budget so I didn't want to buy the return because I thought I could use the S1 travelcard on the way back. I didn't know there was a map until after I had spoken to the ticket warden. I was just sort of travelling places by asking at the ticket desks if it was valid for this journey or not. I hadn't asked about Wilmslow because I was so certain in my head it was Greater Manc - my naivety really.

The staff were at the doors so I just held up the travelcard as usual and waited for a nod so I could pass. This warden stopped me and told me it wasn't valid.

If Northern Rail don't operate a Penalty Fare scheme, will the only options be to go to court?

And no, I just bought a ticket from Wilmslow to Manc Pic, not to inside the boundary.

 

[185]

Think it's GM Countycard (£1075)

Unlikely to be GM Traincard (£906)

 

[Kanye West]

Think it's GM Countycard (£1075)

Unlikely to be GM Traincard (£906)

Yeah it's the GM Countycard. £1075 not £1086! My bad

 

[Deerfold]

I was just sort of travelling places by asking at the ticket desks if it was valid for this journey or not. I hadn't asked about Wilmslow because I was so certain in my head it was Greater Manc - my naivety really.

The staff were at the doors so I just held up the travelcard as usual and waited for a nod so I could pass. This warden stopped me and told me it wasn't valid.

If Northern Rail don't operate a Penalty Fare scheme, will the only options be to go to court?

And no, I just bought a ticket from Wilmslow to Manc Pic, not to inside the boundary.

I'm confused. If you were sure (albeit incorrectly) that Wilmslow was in Greater Manchester why did you buy a new ticket in the other direction?

 

[Merseysider]

Can I just stress that it wasn't intentional at all and after the incident I travelled via Gatley (inside the boundary) to Manc Pic?

This happened 12th August so I had already disposed of the single I had gotten on the way, so I'm worried there's no way to prove this. I'm on a very tight budget so I didn't want to buy the return because I thought I could use the S1 travelcard on the way back. I didn't know there was a map until after I had spoken to the ticket warden. I was just sort of travelling places by asking at the ticket desks if it was valid for this journey or not. I hadn't asked about Wilmslow because I was so certain in my head it was Greater Manc - my naivety really.

The staff were at the doors so I just held up the travelcard as usual and waited for a nod so I could pass. This warden stopped me and told me it wasn't valid.

If Northern Rail don't operate a Penalty Fare scheme, will the only options be to go to court?

And no, I just bought a ticket from Wilmslow to Manc Pic, not to inside the boundary.

Instead of Penalty Fares (a method of resolving the dispute by means of a predetermined amount) Northern have introduced a pseudo-official scheme of their own, wherein they have the option of prosecuting but for first (and second in some cases) offences they ask for an amount of £80 give or take to keep the matter out of court - this is effectively an out of court settlement.

Edit: I'm leaning towards believing your side of the story, but there's something that just doesn't add up and I can't put my finger on it.

 

[Kanye West]

I'm confused. If you were sure (albeit incorrectly) that Wilmslow was in Greater Manchester why did you buy a new ticket in the other direction?

I don't really know, I just bought it to be sure, but then thought on the train, surely Wilmslow is Greater Manchester so didn't get it for the way back.

 

[Kanye West]

Instead of Penalty Fares (a method of resolving the dispute by means of a predetermined amount) Northern have introduced a pseudo-official scheme of their own, wherein they have the option of prosecuting but for first (and second in some cases) offences they ask for an amount of £80 give or take to keep the matter out of court - this is effectively an out of court settlement.

Edit: I'm leaning towards believing your side of the story, but there's something that just doesn't add up and I can't put my finger on it.

Ah ok. Should I mention that it is a first offence and ask them to keep it out of court and say that I would be happy to pay for the fine as punishment for my wrongdoings?

What are you unsure about?

 

[Clip]

Instead of Penalty Fares (a method of resolving the dispute by means of a predetermined amount) Northern have introduced a pseudo-official scheme of their own, wherein they have the option of prosecuting but for first (and second in some cases) offences they ask for an amount of £80 give or take to keep the matter out of court - this is effectively an out of court settlement.

Edit: I'm leaning towards believing your side of the story, but there's something that just doesn't add up and I can't put my finger on it.

The cynic in me would say that a single was only purchased to see if it got checked on the first journey and as it wasnt then no ticket was purchased on the way back.

Of course another cynical thought would be that why after nearly a years worth of use suddenly the OP would now try going from a different station to see if it saved time.

I am unsure of how close these 2 stations are nor the frequency or journey times but looking on the map provided and now checking on Google maps but these places are quite a distance apart and to get to Wilmslow you would have to go in the wrong direction to get there which surely would negate any time savings by getting a train from there.

Im only looking at this with a TOCs head on it and I hope for the OPs sake that their home address is closer to Gately station because I can only see this as a severe case of short-faring.

 

[Merseysider]

Ah ok. Should I mention that it is a first offence and ask them to keep it out of court and say that I would be happy to pay for the fine as punishment for my wrongdoings?

What are you unsure about?

In any correspondence you send them you should be contrite, concise and demonstrate an acute awareness of what you've done wrong and why you won't make the same mistake again, etc. Don't refer to it as a 'fine' but instead make clear you wish to make a financial contribution to the costs incurred in revenue protection, or as means of covering their admin costs, or similar. You get the gist.

We aren't meaning to sound harsh, or rude, by the amount of questions being asked, and we aren't attempting to brand you a liar. However, if this did end up in court there'd be far more scrutinous examination of the facts and you need to be clear in your head how and why it happened, that you attempted to board a train without a valid ticket.

I'm only looking at this with a TOCs head on it and I hope for the OPs sake that their home address is closer to Gately station because I can only see this as a severe case of short-faring.

Gatley and Wilmslow stations are separated by Heald Green, Manchester Airport, Styal and five miles of suburban terrain, not exactly a shortcut.

 

[Clip]

Gatley and Wilmslow stations are separated by Heald Green, Manchester Airport, Styal and five miles of suburban terrain, not exactly a shortcut.

So absolutely no reason to actually do that journey then. On an odd day towards the end of the validity of the ticket held....

 

[ian959]

The cynic in me is certainly tending towards thinking that the OP has a few too many holes in their tale of woe.

I don't see that you have any real chance of escaping one of Northern's fixed penalty notices of £80 plus the cost of the Piccadilly - Wilmslow fare.

The map of the applicable boundaries of Greater Manchester clearly show Wilmslow outside the boundary and it would be hard to suggest that a normal person would not check the applicable area of validity before "trying it on" as it were. The fact that you bought a one way ticket from Wilmslow because you weren't sure again makes no sense. Surely you would have checked at the ticket office at Wilmslow to see if the Railcard was valid from that station BEFORE buying a ticket to Piccadilly? Failing which it would have made more sense to just get on the train without buying another ticket in the belief that you already had a valid ticket?

As JakeF has already advised all you can do is respond back telling the whole truth and expressing remorse and hope that the best case of the fixed penalty notices of £80 plus the cost of the Piccadilly - Wilmslow fare is the extent of the damage. I don't imagine that this would go any further than that and if you are very lucky maybe Northern will believe the tale of woe and just let you off with the cost of the fare and a warning that your name is now on their system.

 

[Kanye West]

It's hard to believe that I'm telling the truth when the explanation I give makes me sound so stupid

I live in the Altrincham area and I wanted to get to Manc pic everyday before 9am and I knew Gatley was on the correct line and I also knew Wilmslow was on the correct line. Checking google maps and the distances, they are the same journey length by car and both stations are 6±0.2miles from me.

With Wilmslow, there's no place to park without paying £5 a day so I never drove there and I used Gatley because there's free parking all day right next to the station in a residential area. A friend of mine living 5mins from the station offered me to use his drive to park my car to try Wilmslow. I tried and subsequently fell into a sticky mess. I don't know if this sounds made up, but it's not! Would I say any of that in my letter to Northern rail, by the way?

The cynic in me would say that a single was only purchased to see if it got checked on the first journey and as it wasnt then no ticket was purchased on the way back.

That's a good way to put it.

Of course another cynical thought would be that why after nearly a years worth of use suddenly the OP would now try going from a different station to see if it saved time.

I used to go to uni everyday in manchester until summer began where I began working full time. I needed to get into Manc at different times for uni, but the same time everyday for work.

I am unsure of how close these 2 stations are nor the frequency or journey times but looking on the map provided and now checking on Google maps but these places are quite a distance apart and to get to Wilmslow you would have to go in the wrong direction to get there which surely would negate any time savings by getting a train from there.

Im only looking at this with a TOCs head on it and I hope for the OPs sake that their home address is closer to Gately station because I can only see this as a severe case of short-faring.

See previous post

In any correspondence you send them you should be contrite, concise and demonstrate an acute awareness of what you've done wrong and why you won't make the same mistake again, etc. Don't refer to it as a 'fine' but instead make clear you wish to make a financial contribution to the costs incurred in revenue protection, or as means of covering their admin costs, or similar. You get the gist.

Got it, cheers!

We aren't meaning to sound harsh, or rude, by the amount of questions being asked, and we aren't attempting to brand you a liar. However, if this did end up in court there'd be far more scrutinous examination of the facts and you need to be clear in your head how and why it happened, that you attempted to board a train without a valid ticket.

Gatley and Wilmslow stations are separated by Heald Green, Manchester Airport, Styal and five miles of suburban terrain, not exactly a shortcut.

Not a worry, I think I'd rather have all these questions thrown at me to make sure I'm not missing anything obvious out. I understand. And about station distances - see previous post

 

[dtaylor84]

I'm confused. If you were sure (albeit incorrectly) that Wilmslow was in Greater Manchester why did you buy a new ticket in the other direction?

I don't really know, I just bought it to be sure, but then thought on the train, surely Wilmslow is Greater Manchester so didn't get it for the way back.

That doesn't explain why you bought a single, rather than a return *before* you got on the train and thought about it.

When you bought the ticket either you thought you needed an additional ticket - a return; or you thought you didn't need a ticket at all; or you could've asked someone about the validity if you were unsure. Why on earth buy a single!?

 

[Kanye West]

That doesn't explain why you bought a single, rather than a return *before* you got on the train and thought about it.

When you bought the ticket either you thought you needed an additional ticket - a return; or you thought you didn't need a ticket at all; or you could've asked someone about the validity if you were unsure. Why on earth buy a single!?

i don't know!! i know it sounds stupid, but what else can i say, that's what happened. If i'd bought a return I wouldnt be in the this stupid mess to begin with

 

[Merseysider]

i don't know!! i know it sounds stupid, but what else can i say, that's what happened. If i'd bought a return I wouldnt be in the this stupid mess to begin with

I believe there are two ways this could go.

If it was me in Northern's office, I'd give you the benefit of the doubt after what you've said so far. As you have a S1 ticket, I am of the opinion you won't be used to buying tickets from A to B, as you already have a ticket before you get on the train. As such you wouldn't have been aware that Northern have gradually stopped selling tickets onboard this year*. If it was me in Northern's office, I'd give consideration to this fact. And if you honestly believed you could use the ticket to Wilmslow, then it's a mistake that's been made rather than an attempt to avoid part of the fare. You mentioned in your opening post that you've not been in trouble before which means if you write your letter carefully and include the right words, this could end relatively well for you.

However, Northern may not give you the benefit of the doubt. As you've had the S1 ticket for a year they may take the line that you're familiar with the terms and conditions of the ticket and the area in which it is valid, and you thus intentionally attempted to get on the train at Wilmslow with no ticket to cover you. If this is how they viewed the situation you would be liable to prosecution and Northern may decide to reject any out-of-court offer (unlikely for a first offence in my view but a real possibility).

I, and some others who have commented I'm sure, would be happy to proof-read your response to Northern. Our goal isn't to 'get you off the hook', instead to help you get the best outcome whilst making sure you're aware of the possible consequences.

*except for passengers boarding at unstaffed stations.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't really know, I just bought it to be sure, but then thought on the train, surely Wilmslow is Greater Manchester so didn't get it for the way back.

How on earth can you possibly think that Wilmslow in in Greater Manchester whilst claiming to live in that area as you do. I really do despair of reading such comments as this that betray such a paucity of local geographical knowledge.

 

[Kanye West]

How on earth can you possibly think that Wilmslow in in Greater Manchester whilst claiming to live in that area as you do. I really do despair of reading such comments as this that betray such a paucity of local geographical knowledge.

wow, chill out. i've lived here all my life, me, my family and all my friends would say we lived in manchester if anyone asked us
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe there are two ways this could go.

If it was me in Northern's office, I'd give you the benefit of the doubt after what you've said so far. As you have a S1 ticket, I am of the opinion you won't be used to buying tickets from A to B, as you already have a ticket before you get on the train. As such you wouldn't have been aware that Northern have gradually stopped selling tickets onboard this year*. If it was me in Northern's office, I'd give consideration to this fact. And if you honestly believed you could use the ticket to Wilmslow, then it's a mistake that's been made rather than an attempt to avoid part of the fare. You mentioned in your opening post that you've not been in trouble before which means if you write your letter carefully and include the right words, this could end relatively well for you.

However, Northern may not give you the benefit of the doubt. As you've had the S1 ticket for a year they may take the line that you're familiar with the terms and conditions of the ticket and the area in which it is valid, and you thus intentionally attempted to get on the train at Wilmslow with no ticket to cover you. If this is how they viewed the situation you would be liable to prosecution and Northern may decide to reject any out-of-court offer (unlikely for a first offence in my view but a real possibility).

I, and some others who have commented I'm sure, would be happy to proof-read your response to Northern. Our goal isn't to 'get you off the hook', instead to help you get the best outcome whilst making sure you're aware of the possible consequences.

*except for passengers boarding at unstaffed stations.

Ah ok, I understand. When I bought the card, I wasn't given a map or anything. After seeing the map, all my local stations are within the boundary, but Wilmslow which I would class as 'near'. I'm actually quite surprised Wilmslow isn't in the boundary tbh.

That would be great thanks. I'll private message you.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

wow, chill out. i've lived here all my life, me, my family and all my friends would say we lived in manchester if anyone asked us

I was making reference to the situation of Wilmslow....no other location...in my posting which was in response to your ludicrous statement that Wilmslow is in Greater Manchester, when anyone with a modicum of knowledge knows that Wilmslow is in Cheshire East, as is Styal station and as is Handforth station on the two lines that approach the border of Greater Manchester that lie between that said border and Wilmslow station.

 

[Merseysider]

I was making reference to the situation of Wilmslow....no other location...in my posting which was in response to your ludicrous statement that Wilmslow is in Greater Manchester, when anyone with a modicum of knowledge knows that Wilmslow is in Cheshire East, as is Styal station and as is Handforth station on the two lines that approach the border of Greater Manchester that lie between that said border and Wilmslow station.

In all fairness Paul, I've made a similar mistake in the past. I lived on Merseyside for 19 years. That didn't stop me assuming I could use a Merseytravel Trio past Hooton (whereas you can't, obviously).

 

[Clip]

It's hard to believe that I'm telling the truth when the explanation I give makes me sound so stupid

I live in the Altrincham area and I wanted to get to Manc pic everyday before 9am and I knew Gatley was on the correct line and I also knew Wilmslow was on the correct line. Checking google maps and the distances, they are the same journey length by car and both stations are 6±0.2miles from me.

Im sorry but the more you type the bigger a hole you dig.

If I was Northern Rail and Im not - I live in London - I wouldnt believe a word you say.

You live in the Altrincham area yes? Well theres a daily direct train at 0800 each morning(I checked) that gets you into picc at 0830. 30 minutes.

Yet for some unknown reason you decide to drive in the height of rush hour (which I do know about up there) some 6 miles away because you can get free parking?

And then on some random day you go to a place that is even further out from where you live you seem to only buy a single because you may have been unsure but stil didnt bother to ask or buy a return just to be on the safe side? Nah, Im sorry but your story is full of holes. Take Jakes advice. Plead mercy,pay whatever and get on with your life.

 

[afyutr]

I was making reference to the situation of Wilmslow....no other location...in my posting which was in response to your ludicrous statement that Wilmslow is in Greater Manchester, when anyone with a modicum of knowledge knows that Wilmslow is in Cheshire East, as is Styal station and as is Handforth station on the two lines that approach the border of Greater Manchester that lie between that said border and Wilmslow station.

I live in the NW and I'd put Wilmslow in Greater Manchester if asked - in my head it's near the Airport so must be. Looking at a map I can see why it's not.

 

[6Gman]

Im sorry but the more you type the bigger a hole you dig.

If I was Northern Rail and Im not - I live in London - I wouldnt believe a word you say.

You live in the Altrincham area yes? Well theres a daily direct train at 0800 each morning(I checked) that gets you into picc at 0830. 30 minutes.

Yet for some unknown reason you decide to drive in the height of rush hour (which I do know about up there) some 6 miles away because you can get free parking?

And then on some random day you go to a place that is even further out from where you live you seem to only buy a single because you may have been unsure but stil didnt bother to ask or buy a return just to be on the safe side? Nah, Im sorry but your story is full of holes. Take Jakes advice. Plead mercy,pay whatever and get on with your life.

There are also frequent trams from Altrincham to Manchester. It does seem odd to head for Gatley, never mind Wilmslow!

 

[Kanye West]

Im sorry but the more you type the bigger a hole you dig.

If I was Northern Rail and Im not - I live in London - I wouldnt believe a word you say.

You live in the Altrincham area yes? Well theres a daily direct train at 0800 each morning(I checked) that gets you into picc at 0830. 30 minutes.

Yet for some unknown reason you decide to drive in the height of rush hour (which I do know about up there) some 6 miles away because you can get free parking?

And then on some random day you go to a place that is even further out from where you live you seem to only buy a single because you may have been unsure but stil didnt bother to ask or buy a return just to be on the safe side? Nah, Im sorry but your story is full of holes. Take Jakes advice. Plead mercy,pay whatever and get on with your life.

I understand where you're coming from but there is a genuine reason to why I choose to use Gatley rather than Altrincham/Hale. There's no parking facilities at the Altrincham station. There is at Hale, but I'd rather not pay any extra money when I'm working at a very low income internship over my summer holidays trying to save up for the university term time. Also, the train takes much longer to get to Manc Pic than it does at Gatley. I did a lot of calculations at the start of the year of every overhead that I would make, including my time, sleeping time, petrol to and from, parking and rush hour. Fortunately there's no rush hour from my house-Gatley/Wilmslow.

I was always looking for something different and the train from Wilmslow is a Virgin Pendolino, which is a much more comfortable journey than the one from Gatley. I would get the 08:33 train from Gatley which granted me more sleep and got me there on time. Using Gatley was a win-win situation and so was using Wilmslow.

 

[reb0118]

How on earth can you possibly think that Wilmslow in in Greater Manchester

Quite Paul.

As an aside do you think the good denizens of SK9 could claim a rebate on their council tax to compensate for this slur. Greater Manchester indeed!

Next someone will try to tell me Warrington is in Lancashire................

 

[6Gman]

Setting aside the vagaries of local government boundaries if I was spending £1,000+ on a ticket I think I'd want to check out its validity from the outset.

 

[Gathursty]

I was always looking for something different and the train from Wilmslow is a Virgin Pendolino, which is a much more comfortable journey than the one from Gatley.

Do you arrive more awesome from Wilmslow than from Gatley?

 

[185143]

Quite Paul.

As an aside do you think the good denizens of SK9 could claim a rebate on their council tax to compensate for this slur. Greater Manchester indeed!

Next someone will try to tell me Warrington is in Lancashire................

We ARE in Lancashire

And, yes I do live in Warrington.

 

[Clip]

I understand where you're coming from but there is a genuine reason to why I choose to use Gatley rather than Altrincham/Hale. There's no parking facilities at the Altrincham station. There is at Hale, but I'd rather not pay any extra money when I'm working at a very low income internship over my summer holidays trying to save up for the university term time. Also, the train takes much longer to get to Manc Pic than it does at Gatley. I did a lot of calculations at the start of the year of every overhead that I would make, including my time, sleeping time, petrol to and from, parking and rush hour. Fortunately there's no rush hour from my house-Gatley/Wilmslow.

I was always looking for something different and the train from Wilmslow is a Virgin Pendolino, which is a much more comfortable journey than the one from Gatley. I would get the 08:33 train from Gatley which granted me more sleep and got me there on time. Using Gatley was a win-win situation and so was using Wilmslow.

Sorry but it still makes no sense. If you live near Atricham then why do you have to drive anywhere - no buses to take you to the station? And whilst one journey may be quicker its only 30 mins from your closest station.

Whilst Im sure everything you say is above board but it just sounds far to fantastical to me to be anything other than its the first time you have been caught using your ticket outside the boundary. I know that doesnt help you but this is how Northern are going to see it.