Syria bombing

[Bevan Price]

Indeed a number of people who are against air strikes have threatened MPs in ways that are in my view despicable. But those people are not 'the Labour Party' - it's not even clear whether many of those people are even Labour Party members - I guess would be that some are, some aren't.

.

Yes - I think that some of militant tendency are starting to crawl out of the woodwork again.

 

[anme]

I say "the left" as that includes all the left wing parties who voted against action. At least the air strikes will go some way to disrupting ISIS and their network. Some people it seems would rather we just sat and did nothing. I would rather we get on with it now than waiting until there is an attack in this country and innocent people in this country die.

What do you think IS were trying to achieve with the Paris attacks? What do they want France, the UK, etc to do?
Do you think bombing Syria will make attacks on the UK more or less likely?

This is a very difficult problem. Military action by the west might be part of the solution, but we need to understand that it will be counterproductive to some degree, and is giving IS exactly what they want.

 

[Jonny]

What do you think IS were trying to achieve with the Paris attacks? What do they want France, the UK, etc to do?
Do you think bombing Syria will make attacks on the UK more or less likely?

This is a very difficult problem. Military action by the west might be part of the solution, but we need to understand that it will be counterproductive to some degree, and is giving IS exactly what they want.

Possibly more likely, it may make us a higher priority target (than before). Besides, I'm having trouble telling the so-called moderates from ISIS. The thing is that they are both Sunni groups that are prepared to use force in order to achieve their aims.

Much as I don't like this, there was no realistic, better alternative to President Assad back in 2013 and nothing has changed since. Any workable solution is going to need President Assad, and they might as well make him King of Syria.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm having trouble telling the so-called moderates from ISIS. The thing is that they are both Sunni groups that are prepared to use force in order to achieve their aims.

I just take it as being an innate part of the Arab mind-set.

 

[anme]

Possibly more likely, it may make us a higher priority target (than before). Besides, I'm having trouble telling the so-called moderates from ISIS. The thing is that they are both Sunni groups that are prepared to use force in order to achieve their aims.

In fairness, when IS come to your village, what are you going to do?
Having said that, whatever our politicians say, reports from the ground suggest that moderate anti-Assad forces barely exist in Syria.

 

[miami]

Strange that the Turkish holidays resorts seem safe.
Thousands of Westerners enjoying a holiday a few hours drive away from ISIS.
I'd guess Islamic State are being bought off, big time.
Don't touch us and you get safe passage and oh we'll buy your oil.

Ankara got bombed by the typical ISIS MO (ie independent people doing it and ISIS get to claim credit to stoke up the fear)

What is it going to take for the left wing to realise that we have to destroy this despicable organisation?

Nobody disagrees that destroying ISIS would be good - assuming someone worse doesn't replace them. The disagreement comes in how best to do that, and perhaps who should do that, and it's not just a left-right wing thing

http://www.chichester.co.uk/news/lo...on-why-he-voted-no-on-bombing-syria-1-7100852

The result of over a decade of intervention in the Middle East has been not the creation of a regional order more attuned to western values and interests, but the destruction of an existing order of dictatorships that, however odious, was at least effective in suppressing the sectarian conflicts and resulting terrorism that have taken root in the middle east.

This from a Tory MP who "Consistently voted against the hunting ban", "Generally voted for the Iraq war", "Consistently voted for replacing Trident with a new nuclear weapons system", "Consistently voted for reducing housing benefit for social tenants deemed to have excess bedrooms (which Labour describe as the "bedroom tax")", "Almost always voted for a reduction in spending on welfare benefits", "Consistently voted for raising England’s undergraduate tuition fee cap to £9,000 per year", and other popular right wing policies.

http://news.sky.com/story/1342768/how-much-will-airstrikes-on-is-cost-taxpayer

The expected payload would be four Paveway bombs, £22,000 each, and two Brimstone missiles, £105,000 per unit.

So let's say that's £508,000 per aircraft in total, just a smidgen over £1m per mission.

These airstrikes cost £1m for each mission. That's a hell of a lot of good you can do with that amount of cash - which we don't have according to Dave and George

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This from a Tory MP who "Consistently voted against the hunting ban", "Generally voted for the Iraq war", "Consistently voted for replacing Trident with a new nuclear weapons system", "Consistently voted for reducing housing benefit for social tenants deemed to have excess bedrooms (which Labour describe as the "bedroom tax")", "Almost always voted for a reduction in spending on welfare benefits", "Consistently voted for raising England’s undergraduate tuition fee cap to £9,000 per year", and other popular right wing policies.

This posting immediately put me in mind of one of the verses from "When I was a Lad" from "HMS Pinafore", where Sir Joseph speaks of his rise from office boy to being "Ruler of the Queen's Navee (sic)"
"I grew so rich that I was sent
By a pocket borough into Parliament
I always voted at my party's call
And I never thought of thinking for myself at all"

 

[Tetchytyke]

The group that supports Mr Corbyn, "Momentum", reportedly called the death threats to Labour MP's as "robust lobbying", and said they should just put up with it or quit.

Most of it was robust lobbying. If you don't want to be labelled a child killed then don't vote for a policy that will result in children being killed. Too many Labour MPs are using "I'm being bullied/trolled" as a way of shutting down debate; we can't have the public voicing an opinion now, can we, that simply won't do.

If they don't like the heat they can always get out of the kitchen.

And that isn't to justify "death threats", although I'm not aware of any death threats being made and no Labour MPs have provided any evidence of these death threats being made. I'd hate to say they were lying, but if it looks like a fish and smells like a fish...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If they don't like the heat they can always get out of the kitchen.

.....and making room for even more MP's who espouse "the Gospel according to Corbyn"...

A most novel way to get rid of the moderate MP's in the Labour Party and proving if you can bully those Labour Party MP's who, do not forget, were voted into office by their electorate, you will not end up with "the broad church" of the Labour Party so often spoken about, but a narrow-agenda hard left group of Socialists to whom the 1970 decade still burns ever so bright in their memory.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Turns out one of the Labour Conservative MPs who received death threats actually wrote them herself.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35027252

An MP accused of faking a death threat has defended modifying a message from a constituent.

Conservative MP for Telford, Lucy Allan, posted an email ending with the words "unless you die" on Facebook.

The email's author denied writing the final line. Mrs Allan admitted adding it - but said it came from another email sent to her that day.

The BBC is yet to see the email, which Mrs Allan said police were investigating....

Good to see such integrity. And they say Corbyn is the bad guy!

 

[Johnuk123]

I'm not aware of any death threats being made and no Labour MPs have provided any evidence of these death threats being made. I'd hate to say they were lying, but if it looks like a fish and smells like a fish...

Simon Danczuk and Neil Coyle are 2 who have reported death threats to the Police, must be liars then.

 

[miami]

Turns out one of the Labour MPs who received death threats actually wrote them herself.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35027252

Good to see such integrity. And they say Corbyn is the bad guy!

Two rules
1) Don't believe anything you read on the internet
2) Don't believe anything a politician says

These rules don't cancel each other out.


P.S. an observation from a previous war instigator

Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY

 

[Oswyntail]

.....P.S. an observation from a previous war instigator

Almost neatly sidestepping Godwin's Law, there.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Simon Danczuk and Neil Coyle are 2 who have reported death threats to the Police, must be liars then.

I doubt Lucy Allen is the only one who's used "artistic license"...

 

[miami]

Almost neatly sidestepping Godwin's Law, there.

Godwin's is solely the longer a discussion goes on, the more likely it is that someone will compare someone to Hitler (which happened in the Oldham thread)

However Goebbels is not Hitler, nor am I comparing anyone (including The Fascist Theresa May) to anyone in the nazi party. Interesting views on how to ensure support for a war though.

 

[ainsworth74]

However Goebbels is not Hitler, nor am I comparing anyone (including The Fascist Theresa May) to anyone in the nazi party. Interesting views on how to ensure support for a war though.

No course you're not :roll:

Though of course we are actually being attacked so perhaps Herr Goebbels might not apply in this case. But then again what do I know compared to those that haven't drunk the Kool-Aid...

 

[miami]

I doubt Lucy Allen is the only one who's used "artistic license"...

I have no doubt that some of the extremists on the left will have issues couch-potato death-threats to some MPs, there's scum in every walk of life.

I remember attempting to debate them at uni when I was defending Nick Griffin appearing at a debate. I also remember them going absolutely rabid when he went on Question Time. I also remember that despite the best efforts of Unite As Fascists, he did go on, and that spelled the end of the BNP. Job done, despite the best efforts of the far left.

However you're right, Lucy Allen's slanderous actions don't exactly bode well. I see she's retired from Twitter.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I have no doubt that some of the extremists on the left will have issues couch-potato death-threats to some MPs, there's scum in every walk of life.

I remember attempting to debate them at uni when I was defending Nick Griffin appearing at a debate. I also remember them going absolutely rabid when he went on Question Time. I also remember that despite the best efforts of Unite As Fascists, he did go on, and that spelled the end of the BNP. Job done, despite the best efforts of the far left.

However you're right, Lucy Allen's slanderous actions don't exactly bode well. I see she's retired from Twitter.

Wasn't that when Jack Straw, acting as HS at the time, gave him permission to say what he liked with full immunity

 

[miami]

No course you're not :roll:

Though of course we are actually being attacked so perhaps Herr Goebbels might not apply in this case. But then again what do I know compared to those that haven't drunk the Kool-Aid...

Who is attacking us? Germany? Syria? Russia? North Korea? Muslims? Jews?

Nobody is attacking us. This week someone got stabbed by a local while they were walking in east London. It's hardly major news is it?

Here's a more serious one from today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35032444

A murder investigation has been launched after a 23-year-old man was stabbed in the stomach in the City of London.
Police were called to Leadenhall Street to reports of a stabbing, and an ambulance took the wounded man to hospital in the early hours of Sunday morning.

Low level crime isn't a country being attacked. The last time a bomb went off in the UK was in 2013 when a Ukrainian student stabbed and killed a Birmingham resident then blew up a bomb outside a mosque. Before that was a guy from Plymouth someone blowing up a toilet cubicle in Exeter, before that someone from Alysebury and someone from India, before that a caretaker from Cambridge, before that a bunch of thugs from Leeds, and then we're back to the IRA in 2001.
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Wasn't that when Jack Straw, acting as HS at the time, gave him permission to say what he liked with full immunity

The government tried to block it at the time, Alan Johnson correctly said "It is a foul and despicable party", but then made the mistake of thinking this is a good reason to block them.

Gordon Brown said it best:

asked about their racist and bigoted views that are damaging to good community relations, it will be a good opportunity to expose what they are about

Sticks and stones may break my bones. Words show the truth.

I hate the Daily Mail and their lies and incitement with a passion, however I would never dream of stopping it being publishied, the only weapon that works against people that live in the dark is the light.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Godwin's is solely the longer a discussion goes on, the more likely it is that someone will compare someone to Hitler (which happened in the Oldham thread)

However Goebbels is not Hitler, nor am I comparing anyone (including The Fascist Theresa May) to anyone in the nazi party. Interesting views on how to ensure support for a war though.

I see the comparison that you have drawn between the personage from a novel by Muriel Spark, Miss Jean Brodie of the Marcia Blaine Academy, and the real-life personage of the politician, Theresa May, in terms of espousing the Fascist ideology.

In the novel, Miss Jean Brodie often made references to her admiration for the Fascists in Italy, but despite some research, I have yet to find instances of where Theresa May has ever made such utterances concerning any Fascist party.

Can you be so kind as to give some links to what she has said that will confirm her involvement with such an organisation.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I meant, paul, when eh went on question time - he said that what he'd like to say was banned, but Jakc Straw turned to him and said that Home Sec he was giving him permission to say whatever he liked for the purposes of broadcast that night...

Nick backed down

 

[miami]

I meant, paul, when eh went on question time - he said that what he'd like to say was banned, but Jakc Straw turned to him and said that Home Sec he was giving him permission to say whatever he liked for the purposes of broadcast that night...

Nick backed down

Ahh yes, I recal well. Quite, proving that shine a light and these creatures wither and die

 

[fowler9]

No course you're not :roll:

Though of course we are actually being attacked so perhaps Herr Goebbels might not apply in this case. But then again what do I know compared to those that haven't drunk the Kool-Aid...

Who is attacking us? I'll make a note so I am sure to know who to look out for.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Who is attacking us? I'll make a note so I am sure to know who to look out for.

Dastardly and Muttley

 

[fowler9]

Dastardly and Muttley

Ha ha, if I see them coming for me I will be sure to check myself in to a psychiatric ward.

 

[miami]

.....and making room for even more MP's who espouse "the Gospel according to Corbyn"...

A most novel way to get rid of the moderate MP's in the Labour Party and proving if you can bully those Labour Party MP's who, do not forget, were voted into office by their electorate, you will not end up with "the broad church" of the Labour Party so often spoken about, but a narrow-agenda hard left group of Socialists to whom the 1970 decade still burns ever so bright in their memory.

Or said MPs could decide "the labour part has swung too far left" and join the lib dems?

Oh but they'll lose their jobs at the next election as so many people in the country, on left and right, fascist or hippy, always vote for the same party.

If Hilary Benn doesn't like the way the labour party membership have voted, he can
1) Persuade the membership to change the way they think
2) Persuade enough people who agree with him to join labour (thus changing the makeup of the party)
3) Leave Labour and sit as an independent, or join another party
4) Resign from the commons, forcing a by-election, and stand for the seat as a new party (or as an independent)
5) Change his own views
6) Gripe from within

1, 2, 4 and 5 are honourable.

While many suggest that their local MP represents the views of their constituency, that's not right. The first loyalty of a local MP is to the party, not to the constituency.

 

[Senex]

While many suggest that their local MP represents the views of their constituency, that's not right. The first loyalty of a local MP is to the party, not to the constituency.

Can that possibly be a correct interpretation of the constitutional position?

 

[Tetchytyke]

If Hilary Benn doesn't like the way the labour party membership have voted, he can
1) Persuade the membership to change the way they think
2) Persuade enough people who agree with him to join labour (thus changing the makeup of the party)
3) Leave Labour and sit as an independent, or join another party
4) Resign from the commons, forcing a by-election, and stand for the seat as a new party (or as an independent)
5) Change his own views
6) Gripe from within

1, 2, 4 and 5 are honourable.

Indeed. The SDP (the "dem" part of the Lib Dems) were formed because the the Gang of Four felt that the constituency Labour parties had been infiltrated by Trotskyites and no longer were consistent with the views of the Parliamentary Labour Party. They took 28 Labour MPs (including, ironically, Corbyn's immediate predecessor) and 1 Conservative MP with them, and then won Bermondsey for Simon Hughes.
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Can that possibly be a correct interpretation of the constitutional position?

The constitutional position is that an MP is an individual representing a constituency. They are not tied to the party, and can resign the whip without having to resign the seat. David Cameron's immediate predecessor in Witney, Shaun Woodward, was elected as a Conservative but defected to Labour without calling a by-election; that was dishonourable but not unconstitutional.

However if an MP doesn't want to be deselected by the constituency party at the next election they should generally follow the lead of the party they claim to represent. And if they're deselected they're booted off the gravy train without passing go and without collecting £200.

 

[Butts]

Indeed. The SDP (the "dem" part of the Lib Dems) were formed because the the Gang of Four felt that the constituency Labour parties had been infiltrated by Trotskyites and no longer were consistent with the views of the Parliamentary Labour Party. They took 28 Labour MPs (including, ironically, Corbyn's immediate predecessor) and 1 Conservative MP.

Whatever happened to Christopher Brocklebank-Fowler ?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Whatever happened to Christopher Brocklebank-Fowler ?

According to TotalPolitics he joined the Labour Party in 1996. There's no indication of whether he is still a member. Since he's now 81, I'm guessing he would be retired and possibly no longer particularly active politically.