Syria bombing

[St Rollox]

Talk about keyboard warriors.

 

[ainsworth74]

Talk about keyboard warriors.

Can we therefore assume that, in your opinion, one is only allowed to opine for military action if one is or has been a serving member of the armed forces? All others to be considered 'keyboard warriors' and their opinions to be discounted?

 

[St Rollox]

Can we therefore assume that, in your opinion, one is only allowed to opine for military action if one is or has been a serving member of the armed forces? All others to be considered 'keyboard warriors' and their opinions to be discounted?

Support for military action is one thing, using terms like "hunt them down" is beyond decency.
I expect better on this forum.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Talk about keyboard warriors.

You can call me all the names you want sunshine. If you join the armed forces then you have to accept that there is a good chance that at some point you will be called into action.

One of my cousins is a Commissioned Officer in the Army. He's 50 and close to retirement. He's been pretty much everywhere in his time apart from the Falklands conflict. There have been many times when his family have been worried about him but that is the job that he signed up to do.

 

[Phil.]

I'm completely against this and haven't found anyone who wants to bomb Syria at all today. Also my facebook feed is full of people against it (apart from one person), thus I have come to the conclusion that our MP's are completely out of touch with reality if they genuinely believe the people of Britain wanted this.

Here I am.

A couple of questions, when was the last time a bomb achieved anything positive?

Equally, how do you destroy an enemy that hides amongst a civilian population with bombs? It's an utterly flawed approach and we should have learnt our lesson by now after creating a succession of failed states in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.

I'm not a pacifist or tree-hugging hippy, I simply believe this is a flawed operation and a tragically flawed foreign policy (again) that is being carried-out against the wishes of the majority of British people.

.........................

 

[St Rollox]

How do you figure that out ?

There was a timetable for Independence which would certainly not yet have come to fruition. My inkling is that protracted negotiations and haggling would still be taking place.

It must be galling for you that combat aircraft have today left RAF Lossiemouth for Cyprus.

ps Why didn't the SNP allow a free vote like Labour - talk about political pointscoring !!

I believe a chap called Stan Collymore joined the SNP last night.
Fair play to him.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Support for military action is one thing, using terms like "hunt them down" is beyond decency.
I expect better on this forum.

If you would rather that the army didn't "hunt them down" what would you rather they did? Tickle them with a feather duster?

 

[Darandio]

I expect better on this forum.

On a forum with thousands of members, hundreds of them regularly posting.

99.9%* of which you don't know anything about. How exactly are you supposed to expect anything?

*Could be 100%, you may know anything about any member.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I believe a chap called Stan Collymore joined the SNP last night.
Fair play to him.

And what a paragon of virtue he is.

 

[St Rollox]

You can call me the names you want sunshine. If you join the armed forces then you have to accept that there is a good chance that at some point you will be called into action.

One of my cousins is a Commissioned Officer in the Army. He's 50 and close to retirement. He's been pretty much everywhere in his time apart from the Falklands conflict. There have been many times when his family have been worried about him but that is the job that he signed up to do.

Slow down tiger, other adults think differently from you.
It isn't a crime.

 

[meridian2]

On a forum with thousands of members, hundreds of them regularly posting.

99.9%* of which you don't know anything about. How exactly are you supposed to expect anything?

*Could be 100%, you may know anything about any member.

That's irrelevant; St Rollox's request is pretty fundamental: standards of decency in a debate should not have to degenerate to primal statements like: 'hunt them down'. After all, there will inevitably be innocent civilians caught up in this.

 

[ainsworth74]

Support for military action is one thing, using terms like "hunt them down" is beyond decency.

Ah I understand your point now

 

[Butts]

I believe a chap called Stan Collymore joined the SNP last night.
Fair play to him.

Did he sign up in a Car Park in a rural location by torchlight ?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why, to buy more time for ISIS? I don't see what harm there is in taking out as much ISIS infrastructure as we can and if we can kill a few ISIS at the same time than that's just great.

Mark my words, this will be even more of a fiasco that the Iraq war was.

Of course the right-wing media wont give a toss, and there'll be no enquiry, because it isn't a Labour PM doing it.

Funny how so many of the "Bliar war criminal" lot on the far right have changed their tune innit.

As I said, the thought process is "we must do something, this is something, we must do this". There's no strategy or long term aim. Just mindless bomb dropping because a handful of Belgians shot up a music hall.

And please don't confuse me for a pacifist.

 

[Crossover]

so what is your solution for dealing with IS?

I am all for a negotiated settlement but to reach that someone has to retard the ability of IS to savagely wage their brand of war. How do you propose to develop a situation of safety whereby these talks can take place?

I am torn over this issue. We need to stop IS yet i don't feel we have a plan to do that short of bombing.

That's a pertinent question I feel. If not this, what is the answer?

It has been an interesting day on Facebook with various statuses etc - I have seen statuses supporting both sides

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'll be honest, I don't know the answer. The Sunnis and the Shia have been warring for 1500 years, it isn't going to be a simple solution. Our previous attempts at interfering in Syria- Assad Snr was installed by the CIA to defend against communism- haven't exactly panned out well.

My issue us that there's no sense of strategy, no explanation of aims, other than the nebulous "stop ISIS". It feels like a knee-jerk reaction to the Paris attacks, and knee-jerk reactions rarely pan out well.

It's the same lack of strategy that we saw in the 2nd Iraq war, the war that created the conditions for ISIS to expand and flourish.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can we therefore assume that, in your opinion, one is only allowed to opine for military action if one is or has been a serving member of the armed forces? All others to be considered 'keyboard warriors' and their opinions to be discounted?

Joining the army, indeed, is optional. If one joins, one accepts that one may at some point have to take part in war against an unspecified foe, as instructed. Don't like that? Don't join the army.

That is a big strength of a volunteer army. Nobody is there who doesn't want to be, at least in theory.

 

[Bevan Price]

Does Satanic State need to be eliminated ? - Yes
Will bombing achieve this ? - Afraid not.
Solution ? - Throw away our rule book ?

Throughout history, religions have been infiltrated by satan & supporters - the forces of evil if you prefer. People distort & manipulate the Words of God, as an excuse for their own evil ambitions / agendas. Just look at the actions of some previous Popes, Bishops, Kings, etc.

Sadly it appears that this has now happened to the fine religion of Islam The best solution would be for all true believers to recognise what is happening, and for them to purge that evil from within. Letting outsiders do the purging will be a lot more difficult.

 

[Johnuk123]

Support for military action is one thing, using terms like "hunt them down" is beyond decency.

Take some believing that does.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Which countries are actively supporting ISIS and how much oil is being exported via the Black Market? It can't be easy hunting down every shipment of oil, even with on the ground intelligence.

Actually, I think that is part of the problem...perhaps no country is actively supporting ISIS, but some are turning a blind eye, and that includes Turkey, Gulf States and Saudi Arabia (all 'allies' of the west), and if our intelligence is good enough to identify a single ISIS member travelling in a car, surely, if they put their minds to it, they can identify where the oil is going to and how it's getting there!

 

[Busaholic]

How many civilian casualties have RAF strikes in Iraq caused?

I believe the official figure is 3, though the BBC Chief Correspondent believes the true figure to be around 100.

 

[backontrack]

I really would recommend that everyone looks at the speech that Hilary Benn made on Wednesday in the House of Commons. It can be viewed here.

 

[Butts]

I really would recommend that everyone looks at the speech that Hilary Benn made on Wednesday in the House of Commons. It can be viewed here.

His father must be spinning in his grave

 

[Busaholic]

I really would recommend that everyone looks at the speech that Hilary Benn made on Wednesday in the House of Commons. It can be viewed here.

Very impassioned, and I have no doubt he believed every word he spake, but it doesn't make him right. Tony Blair was equally impassioned back in 2003, and he certainly wasn't right!

 

[Johnuk123]

Actually, I think that is part of the problem...perhaps no country is actively supporting ISIS, but some are turning a blind eye, and that includes Turkey, Gulf States and Saudi Arabia (all 'allies' of the west), and if our intelligence is good enough to identify a single ISIS member travelling in a car, surely, if they put their minds to it, they can identify where the oil is going to and how it's getting there!

The oil is going to middlemen/gangsters who deal in cash only and sell to anybody.
Turkey buys a lot and nearly all the rest travels through Turkey unhindered.
Also Turkey is allowing refining and extraction equipment to go the other way into ISIL territory to repair bombed oil infrastructure.
Russia knows this that is why they bombed the pipeline and tankers last week.
Turkey is a NATO member and it seems is the real enemy within.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

As I said, the thought process is "we must do something, this is something, we must do this". There's no strategy or long term aim. Just mindless bomb dropping because a handful of Belgians shot up a music hall.

That is my worry too. I personally believe that there are extremely good reasons why we need to defeat ISIS - and every atrocity they commit, both within Syria and Iraq and in the form of terrorist attacks in other countries provides another reason to prioritise doing so. I want to see a credible plan for removing ISIS from the areas they control and helping to end the Syrian civil war, and would even be happy to see us deploying ground troops to drive out ISIS, if it formed part of such a plan. And again, if that plan involved bombing (while doing everything reasonable to avoid civilian casualties), I'd probably support it.

But so far I've not seen anything from the Government or from those MPs who voted for the bombing that explains exactly how the bombing is supposed to lead to the removal of ISIS and the restoration of reasonable law and order and respect for human rights to those areas, and that makes me very nervous. David Cameron's comment practically accusing the Labour leadership of being "terrorist sympathisers" makes me even more nervous, since that looks like it comes straight from the 'if you don't support our going to war, then you're our enemy' book that so many regimes have used throughout history to stir up support for various wars. This does seem to me to have too much of a gung-ho, "we gotta go kill the b******ds, let's have a war", feel to it, and it's hard to see that kind of approach ending well.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The thing that frustrates me is that Russia murdered more innocent Westerners with one missile in 2014 than ISIS have in a decade. Consequences imposed on Russia? Absolutely none. We're still doing business with them, no Russians were deported, nothing to see here, move along now.

I guess we "must do something" about innocent people being murdered by terrorists unless it involves standing up to the war criminals in the Kremlin. In which case we'll smile sweetly and keep on walking.

As for the big man swagger from the leader of the Tories, Harry Paget Flashman just can't help himself.

 

[St Rollox]

Does Satanic State need to be eliminated ? - Yes
Will bombing achieve this ? - Afraid not.
Solution ? - Throw away our rule book ?

Throughout history, religions have been infiltrated by satan & supporters - the forces of evil if you prefer. People distort & manipulate the Words of God, as an excuse for their own evil ambitions / agendas. Just look at the actions of some previous Popes, Bishops, Kings, etc.

Sadly it appears that this has now happened to the fine religion of Islam The best solution would be for all true believers to recognise what is happening, and for them to purge that evil from within. Letting outsiders do the purging will be a lot more difficult.

Satan!!!
The chap with the horns in his head?

It take all sorts right enough.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Slow down tiger, other adults think differently from you.
It isn't a crime.

So why the name calling?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's irrelevant; St Rollox's request is pretty fundamental: standards of decency in a debate should not have to degenerate to primal statements like: 'hunt them down'. After all, there will inevitably be innocent civilians caught up in this.

So would you rather that ISIS were left to their own devices in Syria without someone trying to kill them? I would suggest that the use of sophisticated and more importantly highly accurate missiles will lead to very few if any innocent civilians being killed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The thing that frustrates me is that Russia murdered more innocent Westerners with one missile in 2014 than ISIS have in a decade. Consequences imposed on Russia? Absolutely none. We're still doing business with them, no Russians were deported, nothing to see here, move along now.

I guess we "must do something" about innocent people being murdered by terrorists unless it involves standing up to the war criminals in the Kremlin. In which case we'll smile sweetly and keep on walking.

As for the big man swagger from the leader of the Tories, Harry Paget Flashman just can't help himself.

You could argue that sanctions have crippled the Russian economy and that its budget for pretty much everything is being slashed. Even its rearmament program has been slowed down.

I'm in agreement with you regarding Russia but short of conflict with Russia (which would have grave consequences for the rest of the world) there is very little else that NATO can do. We could have ended diplomatic ties but even during the height of the Cold War that never happened.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

The thing that frustrates me is that Russia murdered more innocent Westerners with one missile in 2014 than ISIS have in a decade. Consequences imposed on Russia? Absolutely none. We're still doing business with them, no Russians were deported, nothing to see here, move along now.

I guess we "must do something" about innocent people being murdered by terrorists unless it involves standing up to the war criminals in the Kremlin. In which case we'll smile sweetly and keep on walking.

If you're talking about MH17 flight, how do you know that's Russia?
A BUK missile of older design than what Russia uses nowadays is most likely the cause. Also Dutch investigators said they won't publish any info incriminating the Ukrainians. It's likely some rebel group which has old Ukrainian (old Soviet) weapons did it. There's no evidence to suggest Russia is involved.

ISIS, have claimed quite alot of terrorist attacks so everyone is certain they're evil murderers. I think airstrikes won't work in Syria as they are too many groups fighting each other that a power vacuum will remain.