SWT TVM did not accept Scottish note

[Drsatan]

Hello all,

Yesterday I attempted to purchase a ticket using a TVM at Southampton Airport Parkway. I attempted to pay for this ticket with a Scottish five pound note, which was in good condition with no visible damage. On three occasions however, the machine rejected the note. Since my train was arriving, I was able to pay on board.

Just one question: is it normal for a TVM to reject Scottish notes or is this just a one-off?

 

[Tom B]

I know LUL ones will always reject them, which is strange. Obviously, note acceptors exist for all the BoS/RBS/Clydesdale notes. It is particularly stupid at the likes of King's Cross where many thousands of people will be arriving from Scotland every day! What will happen when ticket offices are shut I don't know.

 

[cav1975]

Scottish notes are not legal tender - even in Scotland. So SWT machines do not have to accept them.

 

[90019]

Scottish notes are not legal tender - even in Scotland. So SWT machines do not have to accept them.

Legal tender isn't relevant, it's to do with the settling of debts, not the purchase of products.

 

[Deerfold]

Scottish notes are not legal tender - even in Scotland. So SWT machines do not have to accept them.

Maybe they don't have to, but is there any good reason for them not to?

I can use the self service tills at Sainsbury's in Southwark and they'll quite happily accept Scottish notes.

 

[yorkie]

It is a valid payment method, and if you're unable to pay with your valid payment method at your origin then you may buy on board and be entitled to the full range of tickets.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/45185.aspx

Payment methods

The following are accepted as methods of payments at National Rail stations and retail outlets. They also apply to paying on-train when no opportunity to purchase beforehand existed....

....Any combination of notes and coins are accepted, as below...

• ...Bank notes issued by Bank of Scotland
• Bank notes issued by Clydesdale Bank plc
• Bank notes issued by Royal Bank of Scotland....

 

[W-on-Sea]

The "legal tender" argument misses the point: taken to its conclusion vending machines in Scotland should not accept banknotes (be they Bank of England, RBoS, BoS, Clydesdale, or the 4 Northern Irish banks) at all.

I imagine the problem with the SWT machines is purely a technical one.

 

[Deerfold]

I would have thought that the concept of legal tender was very relevant to the settling of a financial obligation which effectively is what a ticket to travel is. A purchase creates two individual transactions: a purchase of some thing and then the payment for that same thing. The payment is a settlement of a debt, so the concept of legal tender is very relevant. Whilst the purchase and payment MAY often be done at almost the same time, they don't HAVE to be (terms may apply for instance). So the concept of legal tender is in my view very relevant indeed and SWT correctly do not accept Scottish notes.

SWT don't have to take Scottish notes, but as I've already asked, what advantage is there for them not to take them?

 

[paddington]

It is a valid payment method, and if you're unable to pay with your valid payment method at your origin then you may buy on board and be entitled to the full range of tickets.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/45185.aspx

Well that page does say "The following bank notes may be accepted:"

Interestingly the list of valid notes includes CI/IOM notes, but it says CI/IOM coins are not accepted. In practice it will be the other way around, especially if we're talking about TVMs! I've gotten a lot of interesting coins from TVMs, including St Helena and Falklands pounds, but I don't know of any machine that takes CI/IOM notes except the deposit machines at HSBC.

 

[maniacmartin]

Most vending machines and self-service machines take Scottish notes in denominations of 10 pounds and higher, but not the 1 and 5 pound notes

 

[IanXC]

I don't know of any machine that takes CI/IOM notes except the deposit machines at HSBC.

Thats because the same version of the note acceptance software is used in their branches in England and Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and CI/IOM.

As most of these machines can be specified for use in any country, you'd have to conclude in this case that SWT just haven't installed the relevant software.

 

[richw]

Around 80% of counterfeit notes used in the south of England are Scottish notes, simply because us down south don't see many so don't know what we are looking for.
I'm expecting this to be related, not saying your note is counterfeit but the machine set to reject due to the number of counterfeits about down south. However if it is a counterfeit note the machine will pick up on that.

 

[londonbridge]

Having worked in retail on and off for the best part of thirty years I've had many a customer pay with a Scottish note, which I've accepted, however I can only recall one instance of a customer offering a Bank Of Ireland note, which I also accepted. I can't recall ever being offered IOM or CI notes. Occasionally however I've spotted an IOM or Jersey coin and have rejected it. The customer has always given me another coin without argument but would I be okay accepting a Jersey 2p or an IOM 20p (both of which I've been offered in the past)?

Since they were withdrawn in April I've had one customer trying to pay with a Houblon fifty pound note, he protested mildly when I refused it, asking was I sure it was April they had been withdrawn etc. Besides my main retail job I also volunteer in a charity shop, we only get occasional fifties in the latter and in view of the withdrawal and also in order to avoid confusion among the volunteers, the shop manager instructed all till volunteers to refuse all fifty pound notes full stop.

 

[Tom B]

Around 80% of counterfeit notes used in the south of England are Scottish notes, simply because us down south don't see many so don't know what we are looking for.
I'm expecting this to be related, not saying your note is counterfeit but the machine set to reject due to the number of counterfeits about down south. However if it is a counterfeit note the machine will pick up on that.

Are you sure on the 80% figure? About 10-15 years ago there was a large batch of dodgy Clydesdale £20s going around, which I'm fairly certain was when a lot of the paranoia about Scottish notes started.

Legal tender has nothing to do with the matter - any company is able to specify what it wants. Tescos could, for instance, say they didn't accept English £10 notes if they wanted, and it would be perfectly legal for them to do so. Legal tender only has relevance in a court-ordered debt, when it cannot be refused. In Scotland I believe the only legal tender note is English £1s, which have not been printed in over 30 years and there are probably very few about (I got one in change about 5 years ago mind).

Many retailers appear to not train their staff adequately, presumably partially down to many retail jobs being seen as high turnover, don't bother training the staff up as they'll only leave soon etc etc. Scottish notes are no more difficult to spot fakes on than English ones, they just require you to know what they look like.

 

[IanXC]

Occasionally however I've spotted an IOM or Jersey coin and have rejected it. The customer has always given me another coin without argument but would I be okay accepting a Jersey 2p or an IOM 20p (both of which I've been offered in the past)?

They aren't technically valid, but as they have exactly the same weights and sizes its virtually undetectable.

The reasoning is that ultimately its the governments of the islands who stand behind the value of the notes and coins, if they were to default there is no guarantee that the holder of the currency would receive any value (as compared to Scottish and Northern Irish bank notes who are required to deposit the value of their issued notes with the Bank of England). In reality the risk that a) one of the islands would get themselves into that situation, and b) that the UK government would not bail them out, is so small as to be generally seen as negligible.

 

[richw]

Are you sure on the 80% figure? About 10-15 years ago there was a large batch of dodgy Clydesdale £20s going around, which I'm fairly certain was when a lot of the paranoia about Scottish notes started.

My 80% stat came from a Daily Mail report, so am I sure...No :roll:
When I worked in a cash office for a major retailer over the period of 2-3 years I worked there I saw 18 fraudulent bank notes, all but one were Scottish. This is for my experience albeit a small sample greater than 80% of fraudulent notes being Scottish

 

[Saint66]

Not too related, but I worked for a major supermarket until the start of June, and just after Christmas, we were told that we would no longer accept Scottish notes. I cannot give a reason why, as I wasn't sure myself, I just know that the order was rolled out across our store and others.

Maybe SWT issued a similar order? Probably not, but I thought I'd share.

 

[insidetrack77]

As a bit of an aside, I've now seen quite a few of these about:

https://www.danskebank.co.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/danske-bank-notes-0613.pdf

 

[Thewanderer]

Try turning up with a Northern Ireland issued Bank note. is the usual reply.

 

[Class377]

Occasionally however I've spotted an IOM or Jersey coin and have rejected it. The customer has always given me another coin without argument but would I be okay accepting a Jersey 2p or an IOM 20p (both of which I've been offered in the past)?

I work in retail and I tend to just accept it, handing it back as change to the next person that requires it

 

[TUC]

As a bit of an aside, I've now seen quite a few of these about:

https://www.danskebank.co.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/danske-bank-notes-0613.pdf

It's particularly unhelpful for Northern Ireland residents in terms of people elsewhere in the UK recognising their bank notes as valid that one of its major banks has changed its name and banknotes to state (as an England translation) 'Danish Bank'!